Israel Caves Under Pressure; Gaza Blockade Neutered

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Sep 12, 2004
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I agree that the issues are very complex, and can be looked at from many view points, but TLC, you, instead of writing of those complex issue, manage to be a total proIsraeli oversimplify fan boy who does not practice what he preaches. Nor, IMHO, have your prior predictions turned out very well.
lol. MY predictions? Shall we revisit yours regarding Iraq, Sadr, the Bush admin being brought to trial for waterboarding vs. what I told you would happen (which is exactly what has happened). You shouldn't dredge up the subject of predicitons LL. You'd be embarrassed thoroughly and completely.

As far as being a "proIsraeli oversimplify fan boy" I've stated time and time again on this forum that BOTH sides have been wrong. However, when considering which side has been willing to give more and come to terms, it has consistently been the Israelis. The Palestinians have never shown any willingness to compromise and they still don't. They want all or nothing and all they are going to end up gettting with that attitude is nothing. The Palestinians are as likely to get their land back as the American Indians are. But they keep looking to the past instead of their potential future, which is their major fault, a fault that you and others like you turn a blind eye to. Instead you'd like to pretend it's all Israel's fault.

The other thing to point out, is that Israel promised its list of banned items in the Gaza blockade last Monday, and still has not made the list public.
Which is neither here nor there because the Palestinian groups, when told of Israel relaxing their restrictions, gave a collective shrug. They'll focus instead on whatever their next gripe is because they are never satisfied and come off as ingrates. Nothing Israel does is ever enough. So the Pals will continue to play the victim to the world.

The Palestinians are like the Lindsey Lohan of the ME. They have had every opportunity to make things right for themselves but they always throw it all away in self-destructive bouts of idiocy. Then they use the media, like whores, to try to gain sympathy for their plight. Media whoring bores the shit out of me and it doesn't influence my opinion. Clearly it works for some though. Give Lindsey a kiss for me.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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TLC, your pro-Israeli fan clubbing bores me too, as for your contention the Israel has ever offered anything realistic to the Palestinians is at a minimum debatable. Arifat would not surrender the right to return even if he was pressured to do by the USA. Nor has Israel offered ANY concessions to Abbas for being the good non violent Palestinians. Which ended the Annapolis peace conference in a nothing result, while the Arabs even agreed to table continued Israeli settlement on disputed lands to keep the conference talks going.

In short, TLC, you saying the Israelis are the reasonable ones here not only does not make it true, you also have some rather unpleasant history saying otherwise.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Israel has held off from winning the war because the UN and other Arab/Palestine supporters have intervened to prevent an actual defeat.

If the war against the Arabs and/or Palestine militants were actually fought to a conclusion; then the WWII scenario could be followed.

However, without destroying the military power of the enemy; an existing stalemate occurs causing death/misery/fear and hardships to both sides.

However a government that does not want to be friends will not cooperate (see the Soviets after WWII). They were not our enemies however, what did our aid provide. 40 years of problems and proxy wars throughout the world and a legacy still the lingers

Israel decisively won the 67 war. Afterwards they basked in their glory, they didn't try to make peace; this led to the 73 war which wasn't as complete a victory, adding to the belief on the part of their enemies that someday they could be victorious, hence their unwillingness to negotiate.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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TLC, your pro-Israeli fan clubbing bores me too, as for your contention the Israel has ever offered anything realistic to the Palestinians is at a minimum debatable. Arifat would not surrender the right to return even if he was pressured to do by the USA. Nor has Israel offered ANY concessions to Abbas for being the good non violent Palestinians. Which ended the Annapolis peace conference in a nothing result, while the Arabs even agreed to table continued Israeli settlement on disputed lands to keep the conference talks going.

In short, TLC, you saying the Israelis are the reasonable ones here not only does not make it true, you also have some rather unpleasant history saying otherwise.
Whoosh, right over your head, LL. Your myopic and incorrect view of Israel and your bleeding heart support of the Pals don't let you see anything else but what you want to see.

The right of return is never going to happen. As I said previously, that's a pipe-dream and an unreasonable tool used for "negotiation" so the Pals never actually have to negotiate in good faith, can continue to assume the position of the victim (while launching terrorist attacks on innocent civilians), and can sucker the idiots into siding with them. That's not the only Pal demand that's unreasonable either but you'll never be able to comprehend that. Instead you'll keep on spouting their propaganda for them like the Palestinian mouthpiece that you are.

As far as Abbas and concessions:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/abbas-s...ed-jerusalem-concessions-in-the-past-1.285448

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Tuesday that during peace talks over the past year, Israel had proposed concessions to him regarding Jerusalem, but he rejected them because they were partial.
Abbas told tens of thousands of Palestinians who gathered at his Ramallah headquarters to mark four years since the death of the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat that he wants a full peace deal and will accept no partial one.

"We rejected Israeli proposals that stipulated making concessions including on Jerusalem and the refugees," he said.
"We either get all six points - Jerusalem, settlements, borders, refugees, water and security - or nothing at all," Abbas said.

As I already stated, the Pals want all or nothing. That's unreasonable and it's no form of "negotiation." It's a fucking tantrum.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Sadly, the Haaretz website is down for maintainance, so I can't comment on your link.

But if Israel has no claim valid claim on Gaza, the West bank, and East Jerusalem, why should we in any way assume a compromise is in order. After all, you just said Israel need not compromise on the right to return because Israel stole it fair and square, where is that Israeli compromise on the right to return? And in spite of your denials, TLC, yes the right to return will always be on the table.

After all, when we catch a bank robber with the loot in hand, do we negotiate with that bank robber and let him retain a share of what they robbed as a just compromise? And to answer that question for you, no we do not, and we prosecute the criminal for the theft also.

UNDER UN RULES, Israel has NO VALID CLAIMS to ANY lands gained in the 1967&73 wars. NOT A SINGLE HALF A SQUARE INCH, none , nada , zippo, zip.

Hope it explains it to you TLC.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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could we use that logic to say that the US has no valid claims to Texas and that it should be gifted back to Mexico?

please?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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LL, in all of your thousands of posts you invariably advocate that the Israelis abandon all the lands they can easily claim through the legalities of the founding League of Nations (the U.N. did not exist then) charter which was recognized by the vast majority of nations at that time and is still affirmed. You advocate they fully abandon the lands and security buffers they won when the Arab states withdrew in defeat from the battlefield time and again.

Yet you never address those milions of people that now have lived there for as long as 65 years, or even longer as the Jewish migration to that area was strong from the 1920's on.

Where do you want to put the millions of Jews of Israel?

How will you allocate the land should you remove the Israelis?

Who will own what, as many of the populations that left in the 1940's never owned the places they occupied?

How will you establish claims when there are no records of ownership?

How will you stop the bloodshed as the current population resists a forcible relocation, not in the hundreds or thousands as occurs when the Israeli government makes people move to accompany olive branch tenders, but the millions that you advocate be forced into exile?

How will you stop the Palestinians from killing themselves over land than can be claimed by four generations of people that have never been to the parcels under dispute, as they do now with their turf wars and power struggles over the spoils of the flow of billions of dollars of foreign aid that inevitably makes a quick hop to personal Swiss bank accounts?

Take the next step in your advocacy and let us know how you would deal with the millions of Jews AND Israeli Palestinians that have lived there for over 65 years.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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To start out with PJIBBERISH, the League of nations is defunct, it died before WW2 so why the hell are you citing the League of Nations now???????????

Like McCrystal, the old king is dead, and the UN, right or wrong is the new king gold standard that sets the international rules.

But then you ask the harder questions while distorting facts, "Yet you never address those milions of people that now have lived there for as long as 65 years, or even longer as the Jewish migration to that area was strong from the 1920's on.

Where do you want to put the millions of Jews of Israel?

How will you allocate the land should you remove the Israelis?

Who will own what, as many of the populations that left in the 1940's never owned the places they occupied?

How will you establish claims when there are no records of ownership?

How will you stop the bloodshed as the current population resists a forcible relocation, not in the hundreds or thousands as occurs when the Israeli government makes people move to accompany olive branch tenders, but the millions that you advocate be forced into exile?

How will you stop the Palestinians from killing themselves over land than can be claimed by four generations of people that have never been to the parcels under dispute, as they do now with their turf wars and power struggles over the spoils of the flow of billions of dollars of foreign aid that inevitably makes a quick hop to personal Swiss bank accounts?

Take the next step in your advocacy and let us know how you would deal with the millions of Jews AND Israeli Palestinians that have lived there for over 65 years. "

So first lets address your first distortion, there are precious few Israeli Palestinians, Israel took care of them with enabling legislation forcefully declaring them non persons even if some 1.5 million Arabs have something like first class Israeli citizenship.

After that you ask some thorny questions while totally ignoring the fact that we have almost 4 million Palestinians with human rights that need addressing. In short, not addressing the thorny problems to include the Palestinians is not acceptable either.

As for me, I have always advocated binding third party arbitration, and there is only two ways forward.

(1) The forced withdrawal of Israel from all lands captured during the 1967&73 wars and set ALL THOSE land aside for a Palestinian State. And in exchange for the right to return, Israel will help finance a viable Palestinian State.

(2) Have Israel accept the forced assimilation of all Palestinians with equal rights and a right to claim to their lands taken in 1948.

But in fairness to you PJABBER, feel free to propose any other viable alternative settlements, but remember, just because they seem fair to you does not make it acceptable to anyone else.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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To start out with PJIBBERISH, the League of nations is defunct, it died before WW2 so why the hell are you citing the League of Nations now???????????

Because the League of Nations was the U.N. predecessor that was the international body that was put together at that time to do what the U.N. is supposed to be doing now. If you advocate for the dominant transnationalism of the U.N., then you must accept the legality of Israel from the international body that allowed and supported its foundation at the time, around 1922 if I recall correctly.

Like McCrystal, the old king is dead, and the UN, right or wrong is the new king gold standard that sets the international rules.
The U.N. is a facade. It has no power other than the power sovereign states are willing to cede it. It is the gold standard for absolutely nothing and no amount of claims that it is will turn that sow's ear into a purse.

So first lets address your first distortion, there are precious few Israeli Palestinians, Israel took care of them with enabling legislation forcefully declaring them non persons even if some 1.5 million Arabs have something like first class Israeli citizenship.
While I can dispute your numbers and characterization of the citizenship these so-called "Arab not Palestinian" (LOL!) Israeli citizens have, I will certainly point out that they have rights to the land and businesses they have built into a very successful Israeli economy.

And what should really be troubling you, if you were to think this through, is that the population of millions of Israelis are not just Arab and "others," it is a real hodge podge of races and national origins that became Israeli after persecutions from Africa to Asia to Europe.

Even if you ignore the non-Arab populations, your proposals will destroy the "Israeli Arab" population's right to maintain what they have worked hard to achieve.

In fact, your proposals will have the effect of completely disenfranchising this population. Now, do you really expect them to stand against Israel and for a foreign population that would claim their land, farms, houses and businesses? Or do you fantasize that they would prefer the bully boys of Hammas, Fatah and Hizballoh over the Israelis that have worked at their side their entire lives while the welfare "Palestinians" have lived off others' generosity and never did anything to become self-sufficient but now come to claim what they left 65 years ago?

Wouldn't they stand even closer to their Israeli neighbors should the threat of external and internal war fade? Clue: Check out the enthusiasm of the Druze population for Israeli military service and their demands for full integration into the best front line units.

After that you ask some thorny questions while totally ignoring the fact that we have almost 4 million Palestinians with human rights that need addressing. In short, not addressing the thorny problems to include the Palestinians is not acceptable either.
The questions are not thorny to me. They are questions that you refuse to consider so they are thorny to you.

To my mind it is quite simple. There is no possibility that the populations that displaced rightly or wrongly are going to magically walk back into the places their great-grandparents and grandparents left 65 years ago.

The human rights abuses they experience come at their own hands from corrupt leaders and the Arab states where they have settled. The Israelis have nothing to do with how they are treated in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere.

If they woke up one day and said "I want to be Jordanian, Egyptian, whatever," they would be laughed at by those countries. But they have been there for 65 years and it is time for those countries to accept them, rather Israel.

Alternatively, let George Soros and the oil rich Arab states do one final favor for their poor Palestinian relations and buy them a country in Africa and let them do what the Israelis did to build themselves their own success story, unlike the welfare dependent lives they have lived for the past 65 years.

As for me, I have always advocated binding third party arbitration, and there is only two ways forward.

(1) The forced withdrawal of Israel from all lands captured during the 1967&73 wars and set ALL THOSE land aside for a Palestinian State. And in exchange for the right to return, Israel will help finance a viable Palestinian State.

(2) Have Israel accept the forced assimilation of all Palestinians with equal rights and a right to claim to their lands taken in 1948.
When pigs fly.

You put all of the onus on the Israelis, Jews and Arabs and other races, all intermixed and attempting to living in peace amongst themselves.

You claim the current population will have to be somehow "forced out." By whom? And to where?

Am I to understand that your proposal is to forcibly evict the Israelis first. Then they can petition for some of what they have been forced to give up but their "right to return" will be based on how much they fund the population that has displaced them?

Seriously, are you on drugs?

Again, you never have an answer that will make the slightest sense in the realities of that region. Oh, it may come to pass if someone dropped a half dozen or so neutron bombs onto Israel. Barring that, the fate of the millions of people that have built lives in that place for four generations and that your proposals will displace, is completely dependent on that population being willing to be displaced. My personal opinion is that are more likely to die in place than undergo what they experienced before they had an Israel to escape to, but that's just me.

You certainty posture like you are the man with the plan. Again, describe exactly how this massive population and ownership shift you are proposing is supposed to occur?

If you can't, perhaps you could point me to a plan that someone else has written up in detail, because I certainly have never seen one. It has to be recently written because the whole idea of a separate Palestinian state only started being considered in 1988.

If you can't come up with anything other than some nonsensical "third party arbitration," like it was a landlord/tenant dispute, your premise rests on dandelion fluff.

C'mon, propose anything that makes sense for the people who have now lived in the State of Israel for 65 years.

Call it the Final Solution. The term has been used before.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Earth to PJabber, earth to PJabber, I asked you to address a fair solution for Israelis, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinians that were born in what is now basically Israel.

Your answer is merely a smoke screen because it ignores the Israeli responsibility to the Palestinians.

Or to put it another way, in your dreams, because no one in the world thinks your delusions are anything but a total delusion.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
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Earth to PJabber, earth to PJabber, I asked you to address a fair solution for Israelis, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinians that were born in what is now basically Israel.

Your answer is merely a smoke screen because it ignores the Israeli responsibility to the Palestinians.

Or to put it another way, in your dreams, because no one in the world thinks your delusions are anything but a total delusion.

Israeli responsibility to the Palestinians? You mean how they got their ass beat and their country taken over? You just deal with it like every other sore loser in history: get pissed off and moan about how they have it coming to them, yet have an entire nation of people unable to stop them. Pissed off that Israel gets aid from other countries? Then I guess the people from that shithole just have a better foreign policy from the shithole you are supporting.

I'm not from Israel, Palestine, the holy land, Mecca, etc. I'm from the USA. I'm just glad I'm not from/in a country that sits around bitching for centuries about how some foreign country came in, beat our people's asses, and stole their land because, frankly, that's what we do to Indians around here.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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OK mrjminer, wrap your self in the American flag, and endorse Israel 100%. I suppose it your right to hold an opinion, your little problem is that policy is not working and cannot work much longer in the larger world, we in the USA are only 5% part of.

But its worked fairly well for Israel for 62 years, just do not bet it will work for another 62 years.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
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OK mrjminer, wrap your self in the American flag, and endorse Israel 100%. I suppose it your right to hold an opinion, your little problem is that policy is not working and cannot work much longer in the larger world, we in the USA are only 5% part of.

But its worked fairly well for Israel for 62 years, just do not bet it will work for another 62 years.

Just to clarify: I don't give a shit about Israel or Palestine. However, I'd rather not have knuckleheads like you running around being a constant annoyance because some people can't gain a threshold in "their own country" because they lack the military capabilities or foreign allegiances to do it. I could care less if every other country on the planet other than the U.S. committed mass suicide right after I post this. If I wrap myself in the American flag it's for America.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Sadly, the Haaretz website is down for maintainance, so I can't comment on your link.

But if Israel has no claim valid claim on Gaza, the West bank, and East Jerusalem, why should we in any way assume a compromise is in order. After all, you just said Israel need not compromise on the right to return because Israel stole it fair and square, where is that Israeli compromise on the right to return? And in spite of your denials, TLC, yes the right to return will always be on the table.
Where is Israel in Gaza? Hamas nows runs that Gaza and ever since Israel relinquished Gaza it has turned into a complete shithole and a staging ground for terrorists to attack Israelis. The West Bank and East Jerusalem was occupied by Israel after the Six Day War in which Jordan was routed and which Jordan itself annexed in the '48 Arab-Israeli War as a spoil of war.

So are the West Bank and East Jerusalem rightfully territories of Jordan as spoils of war. Or did Israel rightfully gain those territories as spoils of war themselves? You seem to want it one way but not the other.

After all, when we catch a bank robber with the loot in hand, do we negotiate with that bank robber and let him retain a share of what they robbed as a just compromise? And to answer that question for you, no we do not, and we prosecute the criminal for the theft also.
If a bank commits an act of war multiple times on that "robber" that same "robber" has a right to retaliate and take all its cash as far as I'm concerned. But you left the part out that the bank was an agressor in the first place. No surprise considering your penchant for revisionist history or ignoring the parts of history that inconvenient to your lament.

UNDER UN RULES, Israel has NO VALID CLAIMS to ANY lands gained in the 1967&73 wars. NOT A SINGLE HALF A SQUARE INCH, none , nada , zippo, zip.

Hope it explains it to you TLC.
The UN is a joke and became meaningless long ago.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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TLC, if the UN is a joke and meaningless, it must mean that the UN, who created the legitimacy for state of Israel in 1948 was meaningless, and thus the present entire existence of the State of Israel rests upon nothing legitimate then or now.

Exactly what all the Arab States wanted to hear in 1948, and still want to believe now. That the Israeli State is nothing but a bunch of well armed gangsters and thieves without any international legitimacy. And without the UN, TLC, that is where the Israeli issue would rest today.

But I am fairly sure that Achmadejhad would probably embrace your position.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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TLC, if the UN is a joke and meaningless, it must mean that the UN, who created the legitimacy for state of Israel in 1948 was meaningless, and thus the present entire existence of the State of Israel rests upon nothing legitimate then or now.
Wow. Typical LL drivel that isn't couched in reality.

The only country that created legitimacy for Israel was Israel itself. It defended itself from multiple invasionary attempts by its Arab neighbors. In fact, that's the only way any nation ultimately remains legitimate, by defending itself through military might. All the proclamations in the world by the UN don't mean squat in that regard.

In fact, the UN resolution that created "legitimacy" for Israel was intended to be a two-state solution, 50% of which was rejected by the Palestinians and nearly every Arab nation so inactuality it was a failure.

Exactly what all the Arab States wanted to hear in 1948, and still want to believe now. That the Israeli State is nothing but a bunch of well armed gangsters and thieves without any international legitimacy. And without the UN, TLC, that is where the Israeli issue would rest today.
Sounds eerily similar to what you seem to believe.

btw, how many nations STILL to this day do not recognize and/or have political relations with Israel? Ask yourself that question then ponder again why the UN is a fucking joke.

But I am fairly sure that Achmadejhad would probably embrace your position.
I'm absolutely positive that I can get unanaimous affirmation in P&N that your beliefs are far, far more closely aligned with Mr. Dinner Jacket than mine.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Typical drivel is in the mind of the beholder, but the future is always the question.

There are those that think the present Israeli tactics can succeed forever, but the next 20 years are going to be a huge challenge. Israeli PR has taken a huge hit in the past decade and a good part of those are in their incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, and and the recent flotilla blockade which is still not a dead issue. Nor should we judge world wide Israeli support by USA support, but as US allies find Israeli behavior increasing repugnant, the USA, in defending Israeli will find itself increasing isolated or able to get other parts of our foreign policy support.

An increasing large part of the world are wondering If Israel wants peace, or if it wants to retain all of its a gains from the 1967&73 wars. With credit to Jhhnn for defining the alternative. And Israeli military might may be one thing, but a world wide economic embargo against Israel may be the only coming alternative.

Such an embargo ended Apartheid in South Africa and it may be needed to end Israeli Apartheid.

Go ahead and laugh, but it may well happen if Israel refuses to change. Will it take 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, because the existing status quo is increasingly unacceptable
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Typical drivel is in the mind of the beholder, but the future is always the question.

There are those that think the present Israeli tactics can succeed forever, but the next 20 years are going to be a huge challenge. Israeli PR has taken a huge hit in the past decade and a good part of those are in their incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, and and the recent flotilla blockade which is still not a dead issue. Nor should we judge world wide Israeli support by USA support, but as US allies find Israeli behavior increasing repugnant, the USA, in defending Israeli will find itself increasing isolated or able to get other parts of our foreign policy support.

An increasing large part of the world are wondering If Israel wants peace, or if it wants to retain all of its a gains from the 1967&73 wars. With credit to Jhhnn for defining the alternative. And Israeli military might may be one thing, but a world wide economic embargo against Israel may be the only coming alternative.

Such an embargo ended Apartheid in South Africa and it may be needed to end Israeli Apartheid.

Go ahead and laugh, but it may well happen if Israel refuses to change. Will it take 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, because the existing status quo is increasingly unacceptable
Uh, K. I'll place that prediction along with the rest of yours...in the circular file.

You seem to want to completely ignore that there are two sides to this issue. So long as the Palestinians want to support militant groups and terrorist tactics like those of Hamas they'll always be considered worse than the actions of Israel. Israel is driven by self-preservation. Hamas and its ilk is driven by hatred. They hate, and they teach their children to hate, which will only serve to perpetuate the conflict and will never provide them the higher moral ground, regardless of what the international Palestinian cheerleaders might try to convince everyone else. Until the Pals begin to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming all of their ills on Israel that will never change. You can take that prediction to the bank.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Uh, K. I'll place that prediction along with the rest of yours...in the circular file.

You seem to want to completely ignore that there are two sides to this issue. So long as the Palestinians want to support militant groups and terrorist tactics like those of Hamas they'll always be considered worse than the actions of Israel. Israel is driven by self-preservation. Hamas and its ilk is driven by hatred. They hate, and they teach their children to hate, which will only serve to perpetuate the conflict and will never provide them the higher moral ground, regardless of what the international Palestinian cheerleaders might try to convince everyone else. Until the Pals begin to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming all of their ills on Israel that will never change. You can take that prediction to the bank.
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I certainly do not want you to have the last word on this thread, so I will say a few things TLC.

1. I tried to take your post to my bank today, lets just say they were underwhelmed, but they still have a standing offer to give me two Lincolns for one Hamilton.

2. You have a horrible contradiction to explain about this whole inherit Hamas is violent thing. Because the good non-violent Palestinians of Fatah get no concessions rewards from Israeli either.

3. The world is now increasingly demanding Israel move towards a Palestinian State, after all, Israel holding on to disputed land dating from 1967&73 gets awful old after 37 years.
Nor are the Israeli mixed messages helping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html?ref=global-home

That Lieberman Statement will go over like a lead balloon when Obama soon visits Israel.

4. Turkey is really really pissed at Israel. And demand an apology. I won't post a link, but the new news is Turkey will prevent any Israel military trespasses on their airspace.

5. I will let new events rather than your ridiculous redacted bullshit determine the future.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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I certainly do not want you to have the last word on this thread, so I will say a few things TLC.

1. I tried to take your post to my bank today, lets just say they were underwhelmed, but they still have a standing offer to give me two Lincolns for one Hamilton.

2. You have a horrible contradiction to explain about this whole inherit Hamas is violent thing. Because the good non-violent Palestinians of Fatah get no concessions rewards from Israeli either.

3. The world is now increasingly demanding Israel move towards a Palestinian State, after all, Israel holding on to disputed land dating from 1967&73 gets awful old after 37 years.
Nor are the Israeli mixed messages helping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html?ref=global-home

That Lieberman Statement will go over like a lead balloon when Obama soon visits Israel.

4. Turkey is really really pissed at Israel. And demand an apology. I won't post a link, but the new news is Turkey will prevent any Israel military trespasses on their airspace.

5. I will let new events rather than your ridiculous redacted bullshit determine the future.
Fatah? Non-violent? wtf? You obviously don't have the first clue about the history of Fatah, nor are you apparently familiar with their charter. You can't be because only an oblivious idiot would make such an assertion.

And that, LL, is why all your bloviations regarding this subject are meaningless. You clearly don't know shit about it.

Please do try to have the last word though. I can't wait to see the ignorant comments you follow up with. If anything else, you're good for a hearty chuckle.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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These threads still amaze me...

Seriously, there has to be a specific reason why some of you guys are so passionately anti-Israel, beyond the general concern for humanitarian aid for Gaza & against what you say is brutal oppression by the Israeli people.

There is some bigger reason why you individuals are so passionate on this topic to prove you are right to an internet forum... am curious what that is. Most all normal people, even those who are kind of heart and mindful of international news, at some point just say "You know what, I don't really care that much about this topic."

But not you guys, so what makes you special?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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To cubby1223,

I wonder about what point you are trying to make?

Because no matter what side anyone is on the Israeli Palestinian conflict, what we have is a relatively short 62 year old history of the State of Israel trying to coexist with a captive Palestinian population. Round numbers, seven million Jews and Arabs with full citizenship rights and 3.5 million Palestinians with no rights and no hope of ever getting human rights.

If we distill the TLC comments about Fatah down to its essence, we are left with Palestinians are born violent and hence are inherently defective human beings with no hope of rehabilitation. Or with an ability to run their own State as free people.

Oddly enough, we in the USA ended up trying almost the same idea with our imported African American slaves, and did quite well as we kept kicking the equal human rights questions contradictions down the road until we wound up with a civil war. And we ended up with those famous words, "four score and seven years ago."

For Israel its only 3 score and two years ago, how much longer can Israel keep kicking the can down the road without finding fair ways of addressing the Palestinian issues?
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
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Just to clarify: I don't give a shit about Israel or Palestine. However, I'd rather not have knuckleheads like you running around being a constant annoyance because some people can't gain a threshold in "their own country" because they lack the military capabilities or foreign allegiances to do it. I could care less if every other country on the planet other than the U.S. committed mass suicide right after I post this. If I wrap myself in the American flag it's for America.
Something tells me it took you a long time to type this post one handed.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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To cubby1223,

I wonder about what point you are trying to make?

Because no matter what side anyone is on the Israeli Palestinian conflict, what we have is a relatively short 62 year old history of the State of Israel trying to coexist with a captive Palestinian population. Round numbers, seven million Jews and Arabs with full citizenship rights and 3.5 million Palestinians with no rights and no hope of ever getting human rights.

If we distill the TLC comments about Fatah down to its essence, we are left with Palestinians are born violent and hence are inherently defective human beings with no hope of rehabilitation. Or with an ability to run their own State as free people.

Oddly enough, we in the USA ended up trying almost the same idea with our imported African American slaves, and did quite well as we kept kicking the equal human rights questions contradictions down the road until we wound up with a civil war. And we ended up with those famous words, "four score and seven years ago."

For Israel its only 3 score and two years ago, how much longer can Israel keep kicking the can down the road without finding fair ways of addressing the Palestinian issues?

Why is it just Israel that has to find a way? As long as the Palestinians are being supported by those that do not want peace; what type of peace can exist?