Israel Caves Under Pressure; Gaza Blockade Neutered

[jpeyton]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_blockade

Under the new proposal, only weapons and military-specific items will be banned. Everything else, from chocolate to wheelchairs, goes through. Including construction materials.

Flotilla 1, Israel 0

 

[nageov3t]

Israel said it would allow construction materials into Gaza for projects approved by the Palestinian Authority, such as housing and schools, as long as the projects are under international supervision.

an important caveat. but I think it's a good thing. I hope Hamas doesn't fuck it up.

of course, I'm guessing the likelihood of Hamas allowing the Red Cross to visit Gilad Shalit is still at about 0.

 

[Lemon law]

If it just ends there, it will be the flotilla 0, Israel 1, and the Palestinian people 0 and international terrorism wins with 3 or more points.

And the groundhog predicts another 62 years of strife, senseless killing on all sides, and no just peace for the mid-east.

 

[Danube]

Just a step closer to turning the ME to into glass.

 

[Rebel44]

I wouldnt allow anything to get there untill they release Gilad Shalit.

 

[nageov3t]

I wouldnt allow anything to get there untill they release Gilad Shalit.

I'm surprised that the Israeli's aren't making more hay over the fact that Hamas hasn't even allowed the red cross to visit him in like 4 years.

can you imagine the American response if Mexico kidnapped a US soldier and held him in a secret prison for 4+ years? only we're allowed to do that. :sneaky:

 

[theeedude]

So basically that policy cost them their alliance with Turkey, their moral high ground, and international respect, and accomplished nothing except making Hamas more entrenched. I said from the start that Israel needs to retreat to a defensible position of targeting only weapons, they are slowly getting a clue. I guess better late then never.

 

[Double Trouble]

I wouldnt allow anything to get there untill they release Gilad Shalit.

Yes, collective punishment of 2 million people for something 99.9999% of them had nothing to do with is a wonderful idea.

 

[Double Trouble]

So basically that policy cost them their alliance with Turkey, their moral high ground, and international respect, and accomplished nothing except making Hamas more entrenched. I said from the start that Israel needs to retreat to a defensible position of targeting only weapons, they are slowly getting a clue. I guess better late then never.

Mark this moment in time, I agree 100% with senseamp on something

This was a complete disaster for Israel, in terms of PR, in terms of political cover, moral high ground, everything. They should have just taken the more defensible position to begin with.

I don't think there's any rational person who would not agree with Israel taking measures to protect itself from the islamo-wackos. However, I think it's pretty obvious after decades that their heavy handed approach and collective punishment has done nothing but the opposite of what they want to achieve.

 

[theeedude]

Mark this moment in time, I agree 100% with senseamp on something

This was a complete disaster for Israel, in terms of PR, in terms of political cover, moral high ground, everything. They should have just taken the more defensible position to begin with.

I don't think there's any rational person who would not agree with Israel taking measures to protect itself from the islamo-wackos. However, I think it's pretty obvious after decades that their heavy handed approach and collective punishment has done nothing but the opposite of what they want to achieve.

Of course when I said it, all the reflexive Israel apologists attacked me and called me Palestinian immigrant or some such bullsh!t. Israel's enemies have used the brute force approach that these apologists advocate against Israel using some very effective PR Judo. Can't say I feel much sympathy for Israel over it's boneheaded self inflicted wounds.

 

[Lemon law]

Not so fast, as I read other news links the Israeli position sounds better, but Israel still has not released its list of still banned items. Given the totally ridiculous Israeli prior lists, we better reserve final judgment until we see what is still banned. And what gets added to the Israeli banned list later.

And given the fact that Israel cut supplies to Gaza by a factor of 5x to strangle Gaza, does Israel still retain that ability to strangle overall Gaza supply levels?

The devil is always in the fine print details.

 

[nageov3t]

..

 

[Jhhnn]

Mark this moment in time, I agree 100% with senseamp on something

This was a complete disaster for Israel, in terms of PR, in terms of political cover, moral high ground, everything. They should have just taken the more defensible position to begin with.

I don't think there's any rational person who would not agree with Israel taking measures to protect itself from the islamo-wackos. However, I think it's pretty obvious after decades that their heavy handed approach and collective punishment has done nothing but the opposite of what they want to achieve.

What makes you think that what the Israelis profess to want and what they actually want are the same?

Think about it. They've been doing the same things for 62 years. They're not stupid, or insane, which they'd necessarily have to be to expect different results. Maybe they've deliberately chosen to trade peace for the territory they want all along, and still make the same choice today.

Other than their words, what would lead anybody to believe any differently?

 

[Harabec]

Maybe they've deliberately chosen to trade peace for the territory they want all along, and still make the same choice today.

You may be right

 

[linkgoron]

What makes you think that what the Israelis profess to want and what they actually want are the same?

Think about it. They've been doing the same things for 62 years. They're not stupid, or insane, which they'd necessarily have to be to expect different results. Maybe they've deliberately chosen to trade peace for the territory they want all along, and still make the same choice today.

Other than their words, what would lead anybody to believe any differently?

this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

 

[Jhhnn]

this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

Heh. Nobody said they wanted Gaza, or that they wouldn't engage in tactical withdrawals from time to time.

Notice that they did destroy the former settlers' residences before leaving, promoted civil war among the Pals, put Gaza in lockdown and crippled their infrastructure shortly thereafter... not to mention carrying out assassinations and a few other minor things...

 

[Jaskalas]

Yes, collective punishment of 2 million people for something 99.9999% of them had nothing to do with is a wonderful idea.

The people of that region have EVERYTHING to do with Islamic terrorism and the acts of war they allow their people to commit, whose fighters are elected as government leaders.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Well, looks like the least bloody solution to hamas in gaza is coming to a end.

I hope that when goods freely flow into gaza, because check points stifle the economy and such, and hamas along with all the other terrorists start launching attacks on Israel again, that everyone that wanted this blockade of gaza gone will be cheering Israel on as they launch assaults on the terrorists, resulting in the death of innocent men, woman and children because that is unavoidable in such a type of battle in such a crowed area and the terrorists won't move into less populated areas.

You may bring up Cast Lead, but it worked. While those deaths where unfortunate, there is no more fighting and won't be as long as Israel kept up the pressure. The blockade started because the people of gaza elected terrorists as their government, cast lead happened because of these terrorists aggression.

Might as well tear down the walls in the west bank and all the other barriers. Let the terrorists slip into Israel and start suicide bombings again, forcing Israels hand which will result in more death and suffering for the arabs then the wall ever would have caused.

But then again, a lot of people want the Israel government gone, along with their military. To let the arabs move in a commit a second holocaust. All this fake outrage, to lend support from stupid and uninformed people for such a goal.

-edit- It would have been much better if the country of Israel was set up in a less FUBAR part of the world, some place in Africa with a low population density I'd say, provided racism like in South Africa didn't occure. But this didn't happen and won't happen. I don't support religion, I don't think the jews have a "historical right" to the land, but they are there now and the rest of the world has shown and still shows that this religious group needs protection a host country can not provide.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Oh, while off topic, it seems to me Turkey's government (don't know what the people think really) is not reacting to Israels actions resulting in deteriorating relations but looking for ways to justify deteriorating relations with Israel. With a more islamic government they seem to be trying to "fit in with the crowd".

 

[Lemon law]

As I keep researching the various Israeli, Palestinian, and Arab issues involved, I rab n into an interesting link.

But there is some reasons to assume that the future 62 years of the Israel may be exactly like the past 62 years. But some statistics may be in order. According the wicki,
the world wide Jewish population is somewhere between 14 and 18 million people. Somewhat North of 5 million live inside Israel, and of that number, 30% come from Russia, and 50% of Israeli Jews are non practicing Jews. At the same time some 2 million Arabs live inside Israel with full voting rights. The demographic time bomb is that
Arabs have a 2.76% population growth rate and Israeli Jews reproduce at only a 1.09% rate. And in fact the overall Jewish growth rate might be negative were it not for the fact the ultra orthodox Jewish minority is reproducing at a far higher rate.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/05/israels-demographic-challenge

In short, if we think Israeli policy is bad now, its likely to become far more ugly in future.

 

[woolfe9999]

As I keep researching the various Israeli, Palestinian, and Arab issues involved, I rab n into an interesting link.

But there is some reasons to assume that the future 62 years of the Israel may be exactly like the past 62 years. But some statistics may be in order. According the wicki,
the world wide Jewish population is somewhere between 14 and 18 million people. Somewhat North of 5 million live inside Israel, and of that number, 30% come from Russia, and 50% of Israeli Jews are non practicing Jews. At the same time some 2 million Arabs live inside Israel with full voting rights. The demographic time bomb is that
Arabs have a 2.76% population growth rate and Israeli Jews reproduce at only a 1.09% rate. And in fact the overall Jewish growth rate might be negative were it not for the fact the ultra orthodox Jewish minority is reproducing at a far higher rate.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/05/israels-demographic-challenge

In short, if we think Israeli policy is bad now, its likely to become far more ugly in future.

5.6 million Jews, 1.5 million Arabs. There are about 250,000 Arabs in East Jerusalem who have legal residency cards, but are not citizens, and who are sometimes erroneously counted.

- wolf

 

[Double Trouble]

The people of that region have EVERYTHING to do with Islamic terrorism and the acts of war they allow their people to commit, whose fighters are elected as government leaders.

Oh good, so if your neighbor does something terrible, you'd be fine with me punishing your family then? Since after all, you "allowed" him to commit a terrible act, and you voted for the same idiots in DC each election that he did, right? Collective punishment is wrong, no matter how you try to spin it.

You'd have to delve into the historic context to understand a lot of what is really going on there (and I'm certainly not an expert), but it would also stand to reason that if you essentially imprison 1.5 million people and take their land away bit by bit, you'd have a lot of anger and resentment building up. On the flip side, if Palestinians commit acts of terrorism against Israeli citizens, you can understand how the average Israeli citizen would be angry and resentful as well. To put all the blame on one side or the other is sheer stupidity.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Oh good, so if your neighbor does something terrible, you'd be fine with me punishing your family then? Since after all, you "allowed" him to commit a terrible act, and you voted for the same idiots in DC each election that he did, right? Collective punishment is wrong, no matter how you try to spin it.

You'd have to delve into the historic context to understand a lot of what is really going on there (and I'm certainly not an expert), but it would also stand to reason that if you essentially imprison 1.5 million people and take their land away bit by bit, you'd have a lot of anger and resentment building up. On the flip side, if Palestinians commit acts of terrorism against Israeli citizens, you can understand how the average Israeli citizen would be angry and resentful as well. To put all the blame on one side or the other is sheer stupidity.

Any idea on why they were "imprisoned" and by whom?

 

[Borealis7]

for each rocket fired out of Gaza, an item should go off the list.

 

[Lemon law]

Any idea on why they were "imprisoned" and by whom?

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Its quite clear that the Palestinians were exiled and imprisoned by Israel policy that involved the use of systematic violence. And the why, is that simply Israel wanted their land and could take it because the Palestinians were defenseless. And thus was created the demand for the Palestinian right to return that still drives the peace process today.

But do not believe me, when you can try places like wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

The other thing to note is that 80% of Arab nationals living in the former British mandate were also violently forced out and were taken in by their parent Arab Nations. But since the Palestinian had been born and made their homes in the former British mandate of Palestine that became Israel in 1948, its the position of ALL Arab nations that the Palestinian people are an Israeli RESPONSIBILITY and hence Arabs refuse to assimilate the Palestinians. As it is the Arab charities provide much more than 50% of the aid needed to sustain them, but the world is really questioning Israeli responsibility or the wisdom of letting Israel administer the lands illegally gained in the 1967&73 wars.