Israel arrogance annonces more building in East Jerusalem

[Lemon law]

Well, this one beats all as a slap in the face for peace negotiations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?ref=global-home

Personally I think its time for the UN to simply declare a Palestinians State and tell all 500,000
Israeli settlers to get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, because Israel simply will not negotiate in good faith. Israel talks a good game but their deeds tell the real story.

After a 43 year military occupation on disputed territory, it can not be more clear that Israel intends to never give up land it cannot ever legitimately own.

But the fats in the fire now, Netanyuhu's government intend to keep building and building and building until they are stopped by a world wide economic embargo. And then claim they cannot possibly ever give up land they have built on.

 

[Sinsear]

LOL, if you think the UN will ever do anything of the sort.

 

[QuantumPion]

If the Israeli's have held the territory for 43 years, and they gained it during a defensive war, I wouldn't really call it disputed

I think it's about time Israel stop caving in to the demands of nations whom would declare war on them in an instant if they had any chance of winning and just kick all these "refugees" out.

 

[Lemon law]

If nothing else this a huge insult to US foreign policy, as the USA brokers peace talks with the stated intention of arriving at a Palestinian State within a year. With its capital at East Jerusalem.

In March/2010 Biden went ballistic when Israel announced similar building plans, so I think, since this breaking news in the last few hours, we must wait for the reactions of the USA and other world leaders.

But I think a very large part of the world is going to go more than ballistic over this latest Israeli provocation. And even if its right before the US mid-term elections, we will find out if Obama is a man or a mouse. Because Netanyuhu is also making a big gamble because he will be toast if the USA yanks its support of Israel.

 

[Doboji]

Have you ever been to "east" Jerusalem?...

East Jerusalem IS Jerusalem...

 

[Lemon law]

Have you ever been to "east" Jerusalem?...

East Jerusalem IS Jerusalem...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To correct your error, East Jerusalem is a part of the larger city of Jerusalem not included in the original 1948 borders of Israel.

So yes its been a bone of contention but the official US foreign policy was always that East Jerusalem cannot be claimed by Israel.

The other thing to point out is that the international community has always hoped for a mutually agreed settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. But now that Israel has shown it both defies international court rulings and now has a decade long track record of not being a honest peace partner, may mean that the only Palestinian state way forward is to have binding third party arbitration instead.

 

[EagleKeeper]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To correct your error, East Jerusalem is a part of the larger city of Jerusalem not included in the original 1948 borders of Israel.

So yes its been a bone of contention but the official US foreign policy was always that East Jerusalem cannot be claimed by Israel.

The other thing to point out is that the international community has always hoped for a mutually agreed settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. But now that Israel has shown it both defies international court rulings and now has a decade long track record of not being a honest peace partner, may mean that the only Palestinian state way forward is to have binding third party arbitration instead.

WHAT INTERNATIONAL COURT RULINGS? - when was the trial and/or discussion.
What did the Pals do since Camp David - reject peace and embrace terrorism!

And you think that the Pals are being honest? They do not even have the authority to speak for themselves.

they have walked away from the peace talks becuase their preconditions have not been met.
Where were they for the first 8 months of the settlement freeze. That is when they could have demonstrated maturity and had some credibility for negotiations

 

[Rebel44]

Where were they for the first 8 months of the settlement freeze. That is when they could have demonstrated maturity and had some credibility for negotiations

This.

 

[Lemon law]

WHAT INTERNATIONAL COURT RULINGS? - when was the trial and/or discussion.
What did the Pals do since Camp David - reject peace and embrace terrorism!

And you think that the Pals are being honest? They do not even have the authority to speak for themselves.

they have walked away from the peace talks becuase their preconditions have not been met.
Where were they for the first 8 months of the settlement freeze. That is when they could have demonstrated maturity and had some credibility for negotiations

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If nothing else I base my comments on the link itself, that states, "Virtually the entire international community opposes the settlements. The vast majority of governments accept what the United Nations and the International Court of Justice in The Hague have declared — that the settlements violate international law. Israel says they are lawful because the Palestinians were not sovereign in the West Bank when it was conquered from Jordan in 1967. The United States and Japan take no stand on the settlements’ legality, according to spokesmen of their embassies in Israel, although they oppose them on policy grounds.

So you have only the Israeli dubious propaganda line that the Pals are not sovereign and therefore have no negotiating authority.

Which must then mean, the world should not hope for a mutually agreed on peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinians and instead should move towards binding arbitration as the only fair way to have a final resolution on dividing the captured territories of the `1967&73 wars, a final peace, and a Palestinian State.

Actually very similar to what the international community did in establishing the State of Israel in 1948.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Well, this one beats all as a slap in the face for peace negotiations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?ref=global-home

Personally I think its time for the UN to simply declare a Palestinians State and tell all 500,000
Israeli settlers to get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, because Israel simply will not negotiate in good faith. Israel talks a good game but their deeds tell the real story.

After a 43 year military occupation on disputed territory, it can not be more clear that Israel intends to never give up land it cannot ever legitimately own.

But the fats in the fire now, Netanyuhu's government intend to keep building and building and building until they are stopped by a world wide economic embargo. And then claim they cannot possibly ever give up land they have built on.

You do not seem to understand what the UN is or how it works.

I've worked with the UN before and i can tell you that the UN isn't just a unity that can do whatever it pleases, it's molded after the parlimentary demorcracy of the UK with separate houses and underhouses, for something like what you are describing to happen there would have to be an agreement in two of the "houses" (you know the first one, the second one would be the SC) and that's not going to happen because no nations in the SC will vote for it.

Don't make it seem like Israel is only supported by the US, it IS supported both by all EU nations and by the majority of the nations.

That said, further settlements is a bad idea and completely unneccesary from a security standpoint, it's pretty much only done to drive the Palestinians out of Jerusalem and it's the Orthodox twats that are the ones doing it.

I DO NOT CONDONE IT, i wrote that in big bold letters for you this time because last time we had this discussion i had to say it five times and you still never did get it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

WHAT INTERNATIONAL COURT RULINGS? - when was the trial and/or discussion.
What did the Pals do since Camp David - reject peace and embrace terrorism!

And you think that the Pals are being honest? They do not even have the authority to speak for themselves.

they have walked away from the peace talks becuase their preconditions have not been met.
Where were they for the first 8 months of the settlement freeze. That is when they could have demonstrated maturity and had some credibility for negotiations

Hamas is the elected government, until that changes, nothing can be done, peace talks with someone who CANNOT represent the Palestinian government are useless to Israel.

However, these settlements are not a good thing for either Israelis (apart from the "you're woman you will have to sit at the back of the bus" orthodox twats who have gained a LOT of power because of the constant bombardment by Hamas henchmen)

If i had any say, i'd remove the settlers right away and leave the area the way it used to be because it used to be a VERY peaceful area until this shit was started.

 

[woolfe9999]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To correct your error, East Jerusalem is a part of the larger city of Jerusalem not included in the original 1948 borders of Israel.

He did not err. He wasn't speaking literally. If you had ever been to Jersulem, you'd understand exactly what he means. Of course you haven't been there, or to Israel, or even to the middle east. It's quite obvious from your collection of postings on middle east issues.

- wolf

 

[Doboji]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To correct your error, East Jerusalem is a part of the larger city of Jerusalem not included in the original 1948 borders of Israel.

So yes its been a bone of contention but the official US foreign policy was always that East Jerusalem cannot be claimed by Israel.

The other thing to point out is that the international community has always hoped for a mutually agreed settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. But now that Israel has shown it both defies international court rulings and now has a decade long track record of not being a honest peace partner, may mean that the only Palestinian state way forward is to have binding third party arbitration instead.

Correct my error? The borders set by the UN 52 years ago became irrelevant the moment the Arab nations rejected them and attempted to destroy Israel. There's absolutely no reason to use maps drawn in 1948 as the definition of the delineation of land in this conflict.

Secondly I repeat my question... have you been to East Jerusalem? East Jerusalem is Jerusalem. It includes things like... the Old city of Jerusalem... Hebrew University... the mount of Olives... etc etc. It is hideously naive to think you can write off one of the most contentious issues of the entire conflict by pointing to never accepted borders drawn 52 years ago. That ship has sailed...

International law is meaningless... ESPECIALLY in this conflict. After all what is the penalty for breaking international law? Will Hamas leaders ever be held accountable for their violations of international law? Will Jordan and Egypt ever be held accountable for their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza for 19 years?

Stop the hocus pocus legal mumbo jumbo and start talking about a real compromise that takes into account the CURRENT conflict. Until that happens I don't see what good it does Israel to constrain construction in it's established NEIGHBORHOODs in the eastern parts of Jerusalem.

EDIT: To further clarify, I have been to and toured the so-called settlements of East Jerusalem... these are not settlements, they are established communities... I do not support settlements in the West Bank or Gaza(especially). But the East Jerusalem communities need to grow and build to accommodate population growth like any community anywhere in the world.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

He did not err. He wasn't speaking literally. If you had ever been to Jersulem, you'd understand exactly what he means. Of course you haven't been there, or to Israel, or even to the middle east. It's quite obvious from your collection of postings on middle east issues.

- wolf

True, East Jerusalem is Jerusalem but it is Jerusalem both for Jews and Muslims, it used to be a peaceful place without much violence at all.

What is happening has some history too, basically it was Orthodox twats that got up one day and started this whole shit, the Palestinians reacted and now for the safety of Jews in the area this is happening.

It's fucking stupid and yes, this one is on Orthodox Jews, i don't hate to admit it either, they are as bad as the Palestinians who claim territory as theirs when it isn't but the different is that these orthodox fucks have the IDF supporting them.

Net is a disaster, i hope he's gone soon.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Correct my error? The borders set by the UN 52 years ago became irrelevant the moment the Arab nations rejected them and attempted to destroy Israel. There's absolutely no reason to use maps drawn in 1948 as the definition of the delineation of land in this conflict.

Secondly I repeat my question... have you been to East Jerusalem? East Jerusalem is Jerusalem. It includes things like... the Old city of Jerusalem... Hebrew University... the mount of Olives... etc etc. It is hideously naive to think you can write off one of the most contentious issues of the entire conflict by pointing to never accepted borders drawn 52 years ago. That ship has sailed...

International law is meaningless... ESPECIALLY in this conflict. After all what is the penalty for breaking international law? Will Hamas leaders ever be held accountable for their violations of international law? Will Jordan and Egypt ever be held accountable for their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza for 19 years?

Stop the hocus pocus legal mumbo jumbo and start talking about a real compromise that takes into account the CURRENT conflict. Until that happens I don't see what good it does Israel to constrain construction in it's established NEIGHBORHOODs in the eastern parts of Jerusalem.

This is fairly new, you have to understand that the area used to be peaceful and inhabitants of two faiths did coexist without much violence either way (and to a large degree still do, this will change as the settlements continue).

25 years ago there was no problem, not 15 years ago and not 10, not even 5 years ago but around then Orthodox Jews started it. You know the type, you're as Jewish as i am, they won't stand for anything less than total and complete overtake of Jerusalem, they have their own rules and customs and some of them are spookishly like Muslim rules.

I doubt anyone has missed it, but i really really really don't like these twats, they are the very reason why women have to ride at the back of the bus, why there is gender separation in temples, why there is separation between Jews (and by that i mean Jews like myself, my mother was Jewish) and converts, hell i'm not even subscribing to the religion but i have more rights in Israel than converts or patria Jews from Russia who believe in the faith.

Wait... should i really complain about that? Probably not...

 

[Doboji]

This is fairly new, you have to understand that the area used to be peaceful and inhabitants of two faiths did coexist without much violence either way (and to a large degree still do, this will change as the settlements continue).

25 years ago there was no problem, not 15 years ago and not 10, not even 5 years ago but around then Orthodox Jews started it. You know the type, you're as Jewish as i am, they won't stand for anything less than total and complete overtake of Jerusalem, they have their own rules and customs and some of them are spookishly like Muslim rules.

I doubt anyone has missed it, but i really really really don't like these twats, they are the very reason why women have to ride at the back of the bus, why there is gender separation in temples, why there is separation between Jews (and by that i mean Jews like myself, my mother was Jewish) and converts, hell i'm not even subscribing to the religion but i have more rights in Israel than converts or patria Jews from Russia who believe in the faith.

Wait... should i really complain about that? Probably not...

I totally agree with you about a lot of the Orthodoxy in Israel... they are a HUGE problem. They don't even serve in the military, they just leech off of the state on a regular basis.

But having been in the "settlements" in "East" Jerusalem, there isn't actually that many Orthodox living there. East Jerusalem settlements are not like what you find in Gaza and the West bank at all.

 

[Doboji]

http://www.gojerusalem.com/discover/item_10967/Pisgat-Zeev

Here's an article with a picture of one of the "settlements".

 

[bfdd]

http://www.gojerusalem.com/discover/item_10967/Pisgat-Zeev

Here's an article with a picture of one of the "settlements".

I've always wondered why they're called settlements and not track homes.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I totally agree with you about a lot of the Orthodoxy in Israel... they are a HUGE problem. They don't even serve in the military, they just leech off of the state on a regular basis.

But having been in the "settlements" in "East" Jerusalem, there isn't actually that many Orthodox living there. East Jerusalem settlements are not like what you find in Gaza and the West bank at all.

I used numbers of years based on me visiting the area (except five years ago, i was in Iraq then), there didn't use to be many Orthodox living there but there are now and it's basically they who drive the politics of the area, a lot of them are people who recently moved there to support the fight.

The current settlements are actively removing Palestinians and they are using methods no sane Jew would ever agree to, not you and not me.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

http://www.gojerusalem.com/discover/item_10967/Pisgat-Zeev

Here's an article with a picture of one of the "settlements".

You know very well that it's not all like that (i hope) and that there are actual buildings being bought out via intimidation in Eastern Jerusalem.

That is my biggest issue with it, also the banners placed on buildings to show that they are next to have to leave isn't all that great.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I just love it when I can sit back and listen!!

I will say to JohnOfSheffield and Doboji - you both have it right on all accounts!


This is fairly new, you have to understand that the area used to be peaceful and inhabitants of two faiths did coexist without much violence either way (and to a large degree still do, this will change as the settlements continue).-- 100% true! Been to jerusalem many many times.

25 years ago there was no problem, not 15 years ago and not 10, not even 5 years ago but around then Orthodox Jews started it. You know the type, you're as Jewish as i am, they won't stand for anything less than total and complete overtake of Jerusalem, they have their own rules and customs and some of them are spookishly like Muslim rules.-- exactly!!

I doubt anyone has missed it, but i really really really don't like these twats, they are the very reason why women have to ride at the back of the bus, why there is gender separation in temples, why there is separation between Jews (and by that i mean Jews like myself, my mother was Jewish) and converts, hell i'm not even subscribing to the religion but i have more rights in Israel than converts or patria Jews from Russia who believe in the faith. --- So do I. Whats interesting about this is you take all the different types of jews - Major streams are Chassidic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and Renewal, Humanistic, Karaite

Major ethnic groups are Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Kaifeng.

Then you have sub-groups within Orthodox Judaism: Modern Orthodox Liberal, Modern Orthodox Machmir, Yeshivish Modern,Yeshivish Black Hat, Hassidish, Carlebachian, Shomer Mitzvot

But what you need to keep in mind is that the Orthodox Jews are very fundamentalist - this is the way it is!! No other way-- which I do not agree with!

Then the Reform and Reconstructionists are the most liberal. The Conservatives fall somewhere in the middle.

Even though there are more conservatives Jews for some reason the orthodox Jews are actually a hinderance to everyone else.

I know among my Jewish friends who are from many different parts of the world - we all treat each other as equals, because what we do have in common is that we are Jews.Some are practicing Jews and others are not practicing-but we are still Jews!

Wait... should i really complain about that? Probably not... exactly --lol

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I just love it when I can sit back and listen!!

I will say to JohnOfSheffield and Doboji - you both have it right on all accounts!


This is fairly new, you have to understand that the area used to be peaceful and inhabitants of two faiths did coexist without much violence either way (and to a large degree still do, this will change as the settlements continue).-- 100% true! Been to jerusalem many many times.

25 years ago there was no problem, not 15 years ago and not 10, not even 5 years ago but around then Orthodox Jews started it. You know the type, you're as Jewish as i am, they won't stand for anything less than total and complete overtake of Jerusalem, they have their own rules and customs and some of them are spookishly like Muslim rules.-- exactly!!

I doubt anyone has missed it, but i really really really don't like these twats, they are the very reason why women have to ride at the back of the bus, why there is gender separation in temples, why there is separation between Jews (and by that i mean Jews like myself, my mother was Jewish) and converts, hell i'm not even subscribing to the religion but i have more rights in Israel than converts or patria Jews from Russia who believe in the faith. --- So do I. Whats interesting about this is you take all the different types of jews - Major streams are Chassidic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and Renewal, Humanistic, Karaite

Major ethnic groups are Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Kaifeng.

Then you have sub-groups within Orthodox Judaism: Modern Orthodox Liberal, Modern Orthodox Machmir, Yeshivish Modern,Yeshivish Black Hat, Hassidish, Carlebachian, Shomer Mitzvot

But what you need to keep in mind is that the Orthodox Jews are very fundamentalist - this is the way it is!! No other way-- which I do not agree with!

Then the Reform and Reconstructionists are the most liberal. The Conservatives fall somewhere in the middle.

Even though there are more conservatives Jews for some reason the orthodox Jews are actually a hinderance to everyone else.

I know among my Jewish friends who are from many different parts of the world - we all treat each other as equals, because what we do have in common is that we are Jews.Some are practicing Jews and others are not practicing-but we are still Jews!

Wait... should i really complain about that? Probably not... exactly --lol

You're a good man YediJoda, just don't get to lost in all of this, it wears you down, you know, makes you angry about things you can't do anything about and that is the worst kind.

That is why i might seem a bit off the issue, it's not that i don't know exactly what is happening, i just don't care all that much anymore, i can't, i have other things to worry about and then again, that annoys me because it IS my nation.

I am aware of every ... group and i can honestly say that the only one i don't have a problem with is the group that understands that if peace has roamed this piece of land for so long then perhaps we should keep it that way.

Net was a mistake, a bigger one than i thought.

 

[Lemon law]

IMHO, nothing better shows the dilemma and tight rope gamble Netanyuhu is now on than the following link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/world/middleeast/14lieberman.html?ref=middleeast

As dumb and dumber vie for leadership of the bat shit crazies in Israel.

Meanwhile, Haaretz, granted a left wing Israeli news paper has a far fuller discussion of the dimensions of the Israeli options.

http://www.haaretz.com/news

But one thing to note, Barak and the Labor party almost guarantee they will with draw from the Netanyuhu government by December.

Meanwhile the USA, through a low level spokesman express mere disappointment, the Arab position is apparently for a UN declaration of a Palestinians state, but at least most center and left Israeli parties realize if they lose the USA, its the ball game. As for Turkey and most of the world in my IMHO. the USA can choose either Israeli settler party pigs or lose the rest of the world.

As for Israeli opposition parties, they may not have the luxury of waiting until December
2010.

 

[bfdd]

How can the UN declare land which is Israels, Palestine? LL do you really believe the UN has that kind of power over a sovereign nation?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

How can the UN declare land which is Israels, Palestine? LL do you really believe the UN has that kind of power over a sovereign nation?

The UN has inherent power over ALL soverign nations, that is part of being a member of the UN.

It doesn't always work that way though, it did, originally and the UN did tremendous work in Africa.

Today, it is doing great work in three parts of the world and it CAN be a use of much force or much help.

Problem is abandonment, the US is playing the "OMG we are king of the world" game and as such, they get a bit pissy when everyone doesn't jump when the US says "jump" like with Iraq, make no mistake, that is why you dislike the UN, even if you don't know that is the reason, it was beaten into your skull by every news you ever read for one year so know you have learned it to be true.

The truth is, Colin knew that he was spewing BS, he sweated and that is why he resigned later, he knew that he was spewing falsehoods in front of the UN.

The US and the UK were lying, everyone knew that, some went along because they got mortages that need not be repayed (Poland) some because they needed UK vote in the EU (Spain) but no one but the US population and congress bought it, hell 85% of the UK population didn't buy it at the time....

So back to the original story, the UN can do whatever the nations within it pleases.