Israel anger at Russian arms deal

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel is superior to all these Arab nations even if they all joined forces. No contest.

*edit*

in military to military combat I mean

Why? Because Muslims < Jews?

No, I would guess because Israel has a superior armed forces with superior training and equipment.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel is superior to all these Arab nations even if they all joined forces. No contest.

*edit*

in military to military combat I mean

Why? Because Muslims < Jews?

No, I would guess because Israel has a superior armed forces with superior training and equipment.

Israel's army is not superior to Egypt's army or Saudi Arabia's army. Both those nations have billions and billions of dollars in U.S goods. Syria has Russian goods. UAE is buying equipment left and right.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel is superior to all these Arab nations even if they all joined forces. No contest.

*edit*

in military to military combat I mean

Why? Because Muslims < Jews?

No, I would guess because Israel has a superior armed forces with superior training and equipment.

Israel's army is not superior to Egypt's army or Saudi Arabia's army. Both those nations have billions and billions of dollars in U.S goods. Syria has Russian goods. UAE is building equipment left and right.

I'm going to guess that he disagrees with your opinion.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel is superior to all these Arab nations even if they all joined forces. No contest.

*edit*

in military to military combat I mean

Why? Because Muslims < Jews?

No, I would guess because Israel has a superior armed forces with superior training and equipment.

Israel's army is not superior to Egypt's army or Saudi Arabia's army. Both those nations have billions and billions of dollars in U.S goods. Syria has Russian goods. UAE is buying equipment left and right.

Those countries do not have the unlimited backing of the United State-, financially and militarily, like Israel does. Besides Israel can just launch a pre-emptive attack one day destroying all those country's air forces while they sit on the ground and no one [with any power] will do anything about it.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
Israel is superior to all these Arab nations even if they all joined forces. No contest.

*edit*

in military to military combat I mean

Why? Because Muslims < Jews?

No, I would guess because Israel has a superior armed forces with superior training and equipment.

Israel's army is not superior to Egypt's army or Saudi Arabia's army. Both those nations have billions and billions of dollars in U.S goods. Syria has Russian goods. UAE is buying equipment left and right.

Those countries do not have the unlimited backing of the United State-, financially and militarily, like Israel does. Besides Israel can just launch a pre-emptive attack one day destroying all those country's air forces while they sit on the ground and no one [with any power] will do anything about it.

Do you think Israel will have the backing of the U.S if they attacked the Arab nations? I think not. What makes you think the Arab nations don't have the financial backing like Israel does with U.S? Egypt receives almost as much AID from the U.S as Israel does. This entire Israel is U.S puppet is a joke or U.S is Israel's puppet.

What makes you think Israel's air force can destroy Saudi and Egypt air forces? Do you have any knowledge on the Egypt/Saudi Arabian/UAE air forces?Your arguement is old. I don't bring up WWII when I want to compare Germany military tactics.

Also Israel is not some wealthy nation that can spend anymore money than Saudi Arabia or Egypt can. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For one their economy is not in great shape. You can blame it on whatever you want. Palestine conflict if you want. It doesn't matter.

 

[GrGr]

Part and parcel of the bigger geopolitical conflict.

Countdown to Armageddon

...

Vialls writes:

The gloves are off, and with America and Israel still unable to steal any oil from Iraq because someone keeps blowing the pipelines, Russian and Chinese firepower buildup suddenly slammed the door firmly shut on Caspian oil reserves in the old Soviet republics. For more than a decade American oil multinationals have been conducting ?joint ventures? in the former Soviet republics bordering the Caspian Sea, with the stated intent of pumping stolen crude oil out through Turkey, then on to western markets. Now this route has been blocked permanently, and America is in no position to do anything about it, because a large part of the U.S. conventional army is currently bogged down in Iraq, being shot at and killed on a daily basis.



For many who have been watching this region as a confrontation between the United States and Israel versus Russia largely over the control of the biggest gas and oil deposits in the world, a new front has been opened.

As a response to this checkmate, Sharon recently visited Putin on Nov. 3 to meet with him concerning the nuclear issue in Iran. Quickly, Sharon permitted Palestinians to return to their jobs and eased their travel restrictions.

Since the end of the Gorbachev era, the Russian oligarchs, nearly all Jewish by ethnicity (with the noticeable exception of Vladimir Potanin), have controlled nearly all key sectors of the Russian economy. This, of course, includes Russia?s major ace-in-the-hole, oil and gas. The giant YUKOS conglomerate is presently one of the largest oil companies in the world, valued at about $40 billion.

YUKOS is the result of a ?loans for shares? deal brokered through the semi-coherent Boris Yeltsin in 1995. Here, the liberal Russian government swapped loyalty from the oligarchs in exchange for privatization at prices far below that of the market. This $40 billion giant was bought for about $300 million, thus looting the entire Russian economy for the benefit of a handful of Israeli citizens living in Russia.

When YUKOS?s chair, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, was arrested at the end of last month, the American capitalist establishment went orbital. Forgetting the 1999 New York Times?s expose on massive money laundering and fraud from YUKOS, the conservative establishment began to lionize oligarchy and, specifically, Khodorkovsky.

Recently, The Financial Times weighed in with a giggly piece from Chrystia Freeland, which referred to the oligarch as a ?democratic activist.? About a paragraph later, the writer said?without irony?that the oligarch?s model for economics is the robber baron factories of the early American 20th century. Fox News, on Nov. 3, referred to YUKOS as the most progressive corporation in Russia.

According to a Nov. 3 Agence France-Presse story, Khodorkovsky made a deal with Jacob Rothschild this year that control of the YUKOS giant would pass to Rothschild in the event of Khodorkovsky?s arrest. However, the Russian government has frozen all YUKOS assets for the time being.

It is significant that YUKOS?s liberal pressure group, the Open Russia Foundation, is completely controlled by Rothschild now that its founder is in jail. As their official mission statement reads, ?The motivation for the establishment of the Open Russia Foundation is the wish to foster enhanced openness, understanding and integration between the people of Russia and the rest of the world.?

Their board of trustees includes Rothschild and Henry Kissinger. The Washington, D.C. launch of the organization included Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) and Librarian of Congress James Billington, one of the leading voices against Russian traditionalism in the academic establishment. Significantly, the Open Russia Foundation recently provided Yale University with substantial grants to study the Russian economy as well as providing the Carnegie Foundation with 3 percent of its entire operating budget.

It seems that the drive to control the globe?s energy is progressing. The American empire?s battles in Serbia, Central Asia, Iraq and Chechnya are one and the same war. Other than fighting Israel?s enemies, these adventures are also wars to control Central Asian oil and natural gas (one of the main pipelines from the Caspian Sea went straight through Serbia). The control of this wealth by the United States and Israel necessitates bypassing Russian channels. This means that the Jewish oligarchy in Russia would become the central actor in world politics.

The Israeli/CIA complex was using Khodorkovsky to sell off the assets of YUKOS to Exxon/Mobil (as well as a smaller piece to Texaco), hence bringing Russia?s pipelines into the hands of the western powers. The Nov. 5 New York Times also indicated that the Bush family?s Carlyle Group was involved.

It was not long after Putin began threatening the YUKOS conglomerate that neo-conservative pundits such as William Kristol and Ariel Cohen began calling Putin a ?communist,? ?another Stalin? and ?tyrannical.?

...

Murder added to Yukos charges


Associate of ex-Yukos chief granted Israeli nationality
Wednesday, 05-Nov-2003 4:10AM PST

Story from AFP
Copyright 2003 by Agence France-Presse (via ClariNet)
Click Here To Get Paid For Surveys

JERUSALEM, Nov 5 (AFP) - Leonid Nevzlin, a principal shareholder of the embattled Russian oil giant Yukos, has been granted Israeli citizenship, the interior ministry said Wednesday.

Nevzlin arrived in Israel as a tourist two months ago and applied for the right to become an Israeli citizen which is accorded to all Jews, a ministry spokeswoman told AFP.

"Mr Nevzlin has obtained an identity card for new immigrants but he will have to wait a year for an Israeli passport in order to prove that he is effectively living in Israel," she added.

etc.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
mwawwww poooor wittle Israel.... Wowwied about anything close to a fair fight...

maybe the mutual-destruction deterrent would do that place good. Worked out relatively well for US/Russia in the cold war.

The ones that should worry are the Europeans. If Syria gets them, it won't be long until the terrorists get them.

Brits would be the only ones i'd consider in any remote danger what so ever. The political climate in the middle east is aim more or less exclusively at americans... they don't really have any problem with euros or canadians... or anyone else for that matter. It all spawns from american forces being stationed the the holy land (saudi arabia), we're (europeans) not infidels per the current meaning of the word.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Infohawk
mwawwww poooor wittle Israel.... Wowwied about anything close to a fair fight...

you think its a fair fight when suicide bombers blow up little children on buses?

That's why they are getting missiles, so they don't have to use suicide bombers. There is no pleasing you 😉

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Aimster

What makes you think the Arab nations don't have the financial backing like the U.S does? Egypt receives almost as much AID from the U.S as Israel does. This entire Israel is U.S puppet is a joke or U.S is Israel's puppet.

What makes you think Israel's air force can destroy Saudi and Egypt air forces? Do you have any knowledge on the Egypt/Saudi Arabian/UAE air forces?Your arguement is old. I don't bring up WWII when I want to compare Germany military tactics.

Also Israel is not some wealthy nation that can spend anymore money than Saudi Arabia or Egypt can. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For one their economy is not in great shape. You can blame it on whatever you want. Palestine conflict if you want. It doesn't matter.

What's the point then of even arguing this if all it will contain is assumption and supposition? Neither of us know what exactly the situation is, but at least I have some historical precedent to base my theories on.

Here's one fact for you though: Egypt does not receive "almost" as much, unless you consider roughly HALF to be "almost". (Israel will receive 2.2 bil in FMF funding 2005 while Egypt gets 1.3 bil). Then there's the whole thing about Egypt having such a greater population that such funding becomes dilluted in the Egyptian economy.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Aimster

What makes you think the Arab nations don't have the financial backing like the U.S does? Egypt receives almost as much AID from the U.S as Israel does. This entire Israel is U.S puppet is a joke or U.S is Israel's puppet.

What makes you think Israel's air force can destroy Saudi and Egypt air forces? Do you have any knowledge on the Egypt/Saudi Arabian/UAE air forces?Your arguement is old. I don't bring up WWII when I want to compare Germany military tactics.

Also Israel is not some wealthy nation that can spend anymore money than Saudi Arabia or Egypt can. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For one their economy is not in great shape. You can blame it on whatever you want. Palestine conflict if you want. It doesn't matter.

What's the point then of even arguing this if all it will contain is assumption and supposition? Neither of us know what exactly the situation is, but at least I have some historical precedent to base my theories on.

Here's one fact for you though: Egypt does not receive "almost" as much, unless you consider roughly HALF to be "almost". (Israel will receive 2.2 bil in FMF funding 2005 while Egypt gets 1.3 bil). Then there's the whole thing about Egypt having such a greater population that such funding becomes dilluted in the Egyptian economy.

You forgot to mention the $20+ billion the U.S has given Egypt in economic assistance.

That funding you mentioned is for military equipment. It's "military" AID.

Egypt was the top arms buyer from the U.S this previous year.

 

[RabidMongoose]

You forgot to mention the $20+ billion the U.S has given Egypt in economic assistance.

And how much has the US given to Israel?

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Part and parcel of the bigger geopolitical conflict.

Countdown to Armageddon

.

excellent link.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
mwawwww poooor wittle Israel.... Wowwied about anything close to a fair fight...

fair? the arab nations know all about "fair" when they attempted all those bangbangs 😛 and of course they continue to pick on a tiny nation they surround😛

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Aimster

What makes you think the Arab nations don't have the financial backing like the U.S does? Egypt receives almost as much AID from the U.S as Israel does. This entire Israel is U.S puppet is a joke or U.S is Israel's puppet.

What makes you think Israel's air force can destroy Saudi and Egypt air forces? Do you have any knowledge on the Egypt/Saudi Arabian/UAE air forces?Your arguement is old. I don't bring up WWII when I want to compare Germany military tactics.

Also Israel is not some wealthy nation that can spend anymore money than Saudi Arabia or Egypt can. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For one their economy is not in great shape. You can blame it on whatever you want. Palestine conflict if you want. It doesn't matter.

What's the point then of even arguing this if all it will contain is assumption and supposition? Neither of us know what exactly the situation is, but at least I have some historical precedent to base my theories on.

Here's one fact for you though: Egypt does not receive "almost" as much, unless you consider roughly HALF to be "almost". (Israel will receive 2.2 bil in FMF funding 2005 while Egypt gets 1.3 bil). Then there's the whole thing about Egypt having such a greater population that such funding becomes dilluted in the Egyptian economy.

You forgot to mention the $20+ billion the U.S has given Egypt in economic assistance.

That funding you mentioned is for military equipment. It's "military" AID.

Egypt was the top arms buyer from the U.S this previous year.

Huh? 20 billion? Are you adding up over the past few decades the aid we gave to Egypt for "social programs" ?

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: GrGr
Part and parcel of the bigger geopolitical conflict.

Countdown to Armageddon

.

excellent link.

I don't know if Joe Vialls can be considered an accurate source for information? You ever see his web site? It's really off the top, including an article claiming the US is behind causing the recent tsunami, by means fo a nuclear device detonated right next to the underwater fault line.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: GrGr
Part and parcel of the bigger geopolitical conflict.

Countdown to Armageddon

.

excellent link.

I don't know if Joe Vialls can be considered an accurate source for information? You ever see his web site? It's really off the top, including an article claiming the US is behind causing the recent tsunami, by means fo a nuclear device detonated right next to the underwater fault line.

damn.... that guy wears a tinfoil hat to bed. Everything is a zionist plot for world domination :roll:

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Aimster

What makes you think the Arab nations don't have the financial backing like the U.S does? Egypt receives almost as much AID from the U.S as Israel does. This entire Israel is U.S puppet is a joke or U.S is Israel's puppet.

What makes you think Israel's air force can destroy Saudi and Egypt air forces? Do you have any knowledge on the Egypt/Saudi Arabian/UAE air forces?Your arguement is old. I don't bring up WWII when I want to compare Germany military tactics.

Also Israel is not some wealthy nation that can spend anymore money than Saudi Arabia or Egypt can. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For one their economy is not in great shape. You can blame it on whatever you want. Palestine conflict if you want. It doesn't matter.

What's the point then of even arguing this if all it will contain is assumption and supposition? Neither of us know what exactly the situation is, but at least I have some historical precedent to base my theories on.

Here's one fact for you though: Egypt does not receive "almost" as much, unless you consider roughly HALF to be "almost". (Israel will receive 2.2 bil in FMF funding 2005 while Egypt gets 1.3 bil). Then there's the whole thing about Egypt having such a greater population that such funding becomes dilluted in the Egyptian economy.

You forgot to mention the $20+ billion the U.S has given Egypt in economic assistance.

That funding you mentioned is for military equipment. It's "military" AID.

Egypt was the top arms buyer from the U.S this previous year.

Huh? 20 billion? Are you adding up over the past few decades the aid we gave to Egypt for "social programs" ?

My point is the U.S does not just give Israel AID. The U.S does not just give help to Israel and ignore the Arab nations.

We are not talking about an Israel vs Egypt war. My point is anyone who says Israel's military is superior to ALL the Arab nations combined is foolish. Anyone who says such a thing has no idea what they are talking about. They are either pro-Israeli and believe Israel is the greatest nation ever or they believe Arabs are pigs and are uncapable of flying their jets or driving their tanks.

Israel will have a hard time facing Syria, Egypt, or Saudi Arabia alone. I don't see how anyone can say Israel will surely win if the Arab nations joined forces. The Arabs will never join forces and attack Israel.

If you gather up Egypt's air force right now and send them to attack Israel they will be able to knock out a large number of their aircraft. The same goes for Israel doing an attack on Egypt. There is no group of Arab nations who have a combined force.

Each one of these countries in the M.E has enough power to defend their nation against an attack from another nation in that region. If anyone attempts to invade Israel they will lose. If anyone in that region attempts to invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, they will lose.

As long as the U.S continues to do what it is doing in that region, you will not see a war. The U.S controls everything. They have each of those nations in check from fighting each other.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: lozina
I don't know if Joe Vialls can be considered an accurate source for information? You ever see his web site? It's really off the top, including an article claiming the US is behind causing the recent tsunami, by means fo a nuclear device detonated right next to the underwater fault line.

I didn't think that guy was the source of facts, but the summary of the current events in Russia is pretty accurate. Oligarhs there mostly aquired Israeli citizenship and don't give a rat's ass about what happens to Russia

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel will have a hard time facing Syria, Egypt, or Saudi Arabia alone. I don't see how anyone can say Israel will surely win if the Arab nations joined forces. The Arabs will never join forces and attack Israel.

If you gather up Egypt's air force right now and send them to attack Israel they will be able to knock out a large number of their aircraft. The same goes for Israel doing an attack on Egypt. There is no group of Arab nations who have a combined force.

You are miscalculating the disparity in military capability between Israel and its neighbors. I'll go into some basic reasons now, and go into more detail later if you want to continue this dicussion. Israel would easily destroy Syria's conventional forces in a one on one matchup, the only question would be how much of Syria Israel could sucessfully occuppy due to problems with insurgents. Saudi Arabia and Egypt would put up more of a fight, but Israel would definately be the winner by a decisive margain in a one on one engagement, with the only limitation being Israel possibly having some trouble with the logistics of actually invading Saudi Arabia. Some numbers to keep in mind are that Israel has around 4,000 tank and over 10,000 APCs, and 725,000 troops in the active and reserve forces!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/...ael/army-equipment.htm

With regards to the airforces, you're heavily understimating the disparity. Both countries may have US relatively modern aircraft models, but the devil is in the details. The major liability of the nations other than the UAE and Israel with regards to their armaments right now is that they are stuck with the far less effective Sparrow medium range missile rather than the AMRAAM (this may change for Jordan soon) and versions of the Sidewinder missile other than the Aim-9x.

This mean that Israel has a major advantage in long range combat, and an even greater edge in closer range combat. The older version of the sidewinder was the traditional infered missile that required the pilot to line up the other fighter in his sights and point and shoot. By contrast, Israeli planes, starting with the F-16I are now getting equipped with the spectacular Python 5 Missile which can make a strong argument for being the best short ranged air to air missile in the world.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com...es/python/Python5.html

In conjunction with helmet mounted sights the Israeli F-16s &amp; F-15s have, all the pilot has to do is turn his head and look at the enemy fighter, and he can achieve missile lock. In conjunction with the speed and agility of the Python 5, this allows the pilot to hit the enemy with a missile even if the enemy is right behind him. Incidentally this bring up one area in which the majority of the Arab F-16s currently have a major disadvantage since they lack helmet mounted sights.

One of the several other differences between the older version of the sidewinder and the Python 5 is that the Aim-9M can go up to Mach 2.5, while the Python 5 can go up to Mach 4. The Python 5 also has the ability to analyze the total infered image of its target and hit it at its most vulnerable point rather than simply its strongest heat source in order to increase its lethality. This same ability may make it essentially immune to conventional flares.

Israel also simply has greater plane numbers than Egypt, particularly modern ones. Egypt currently has around 220 F-16s and 20 Mirage 2000s. By contrast Israel has around 210 F-16s, 64 F-15s and 50 F4Es that underwent the Kurnass 2000 modification which completely replaced the cockpitt's electronics in the late 1980s and made the planes a very serious threat to modern fighters. Israel also has a far larger number of very capable older planes.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/...rael/iaf-equipment.htm

Israel also has some Phalcon AWACS aircraft in addtion to its E2Cs to provide far more effetive AWACS supports than just Egypt's E2Cs.

Israel also has certain impressive unique weapons such as the Spike glide bomb which can hit a target up to 60 kilometers away with pinpoint accuracy.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com...ssiles/spice/Spice.htm

I haven't even gotten into the issue of pilot quality and training which should still be strongly in Israel's favor.

An airwar between Egypt and Israel would go strongly in Israel's favor right now. While an Egyptian strike against Israel would likely be beaten back with heavy loses for the attackers, an Israeli one could absolutely devastate the Egyptian airforce.

Israel still has one of the most powerful airforces in the world at the moment.

 

[Stunt]

Egypt top arms buyer

The Congressional Research Service said in a report that Egypt has ordered more defense equipment and platforms from the United States than any other country. CRS, in a report issued on Dec. 8, said Egypt led in nearly every category of military purchases from 1996 until 2003.

In all, the report said, Egypt ordered $13.7 billion in weaponry from 1996 to 2003, far more than any other country during that period. The report said Egypt has replaced Saudi Arabia as the leading military client of Washington.

Ranks1Ranks2

Saudi Arabia $ 18,000,000,000
Israel $ 9,110,000,000
Iran $ 4,300,000,000
Kuwait $ 2,500,400,000
Egypt $ 2,443,200,000
Jordan $ 2,043,200,000
United Arab Emirates $ 1,600,000,000
Yemen $ 885,600,000
Syria $ 858,000,000
Qatar $ 723,000,000

Israel...$9bil + 6mill ppl
it's arab neighbours...$33bil + 219mill ppl

 

[Aegeon]

One thing to keep in mind when comparing arms purchases from foreign countries is that Arab countries like Egypt have virtually no real domestic armaments (other than licensed production) while Israel has a very impressive domestic weapons industry that makes up a substancial portion of their aquisitions.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Aegeon
One thing to keep in mind when comparing arms purchases from foreign countries is that Arab countries like Egypt have virtually no real domestic armaments (other than licensed production) while Israel has a very impressive domestic weapons industry that makes up a substancial portion of their aquisitions.

I'll respond to your earlier post in a second, but I thought Egypt was very capable of building their own weapons. In fact they do make their own weapons, do they not? I read they even produce the parts they need for their U.S tanks so they no longer need to rely on the U.S for the spare parts.

Also we are both discussing Egypt because we agree out of all the Arab nations that it is the strongest one, correct?

 

[SuperTool]

US warns Russia on missiles. Russia says, "Who, me?"

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
US warns Russia on missiles. Russia says, "Who, me?"

Spoiled brat Israel had a hissy-fit to peon / bad parent USA and USA does its bidding.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: SuperTool
US warns Russia on missiles. Russia says, "Who, me?"

Spoiled brat Israel had a hissy-fit to peon / bad parent USA and USA does its bidding.

of course, we have to protect the unsolicited 51st state of the union