Israel and America are Making some powerful mistakes

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imported_toxigun

Junior Member
Jul 29, 2006
23
0
0
Maybe if you imagine how your own army would fight such organization you will understand what is going on.
Your own army would do the same - get intelligence and bomb based on this intelligence, as simple as that. There is nothing special. This is how army works. That is also how your army works.

Intelligence reports potential targets that are used by Hezbolla and the IDF attacks those targets from the ground, sea or land. Intelligence also makes mistakes. And additionally, most of the targets are ALSO populated by civilians. And there is nothing we can do about it. And that's exactly what happened throughout history in the "massacres" you describe (Except rare cases where soldiers operated against orders/laws and shot civilians for revenge or something else. In those cases they were trialed and sent to prison).

Ezel and Lehi were terrorist organizations, yes. But when the state of Israel was formed those organizations were not legal anymore and were dismantled and merged into the army and the police. When the people from those organizatons were merged into the army and the police they no longer do whatever they want and kill whomever they want. They must obey the law and the orders and operate accordingly, and that's what they did.

I believe that if, for example, the Hezbolla will be merged into the Lebanese army I think that the situation will be resolved. They will have to obey the law and the orders of the government, will stop attacking Israel, and Israel will stop attacking Lebanon and will withdraw its forces from there. Maybe even a peace agreement will be formed between Israel and Lebanon.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: toxigun
Maybe if you imagine how your own army would fight such organization you will understand what is going on.
Your own army would do the same - get intelligence and bomb based on this intelligence, as simple as that. There is nothing special. This is how army works. That is also how your army works.

Intelligence reports potential targets that are used by Hezbolla and the IDF attacks those targets from the ground, sea or land. Intelligence also makes mistakes. And additionally, most of the targets are ALSO populated by civilians. And there is nothing we can do about it. And that's exactly what happened throughout history in the "massacres" you describe (Except rare cases where soldiers operated against orders/laws and shot civilians for revenge or something else. In those cases they were trialed and sent to prison).

Ezel and Lehi were terrorist organizations, yes. But when the state of Israel was formed those organizations were not legal anymore and were dismantled and merged into the army and the police. When the people from those organizatons were merged into the army and the police they no longer do whatever they want and kill whomever they want. They must obey the law and the orders and operate accordingly, and that's what they did.

I believe that if, for example, the Hezbolla will be merged into the Lebanese army I think that the situation will be resolved. They will have to obey the law and the orders of the government, will stop attacking Israel, and Israel will stop attacking Lebanon and will withdraw its forces from there. Maybe even a peace agreement will be formed between Israel and Lebanon.

What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Originally posted by: Dari
Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Lets say Ben-Gurion was indeed a terrorist. His scheme worked out. Nassarallah's doesn't. What's the problem with that? In a conflict, the stronger prevails, not necessarily the one who's right.

With that aside, the aim of Ben Gurion was creating the state of Israel. Nassallah's aim is to destroy Israel. Now you decide who's morally better.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Dari
Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Lets say Ben-Gurion was indeed a terrorist. His scheme worked out. Nassarallah's doesn't. What's the problem with that? In a conflict, the stronger prevails, not necessarily the one who's right.

With that aside, the aim of Ben Gurion was creating the state of Israel. Nassallah's aim is to destroy Israel. Now you decide who's morally better.

Morally? Creation and Destruction are different sides of the same coin. You may as well call it regeneration, akin to the mythical Phoenix which destroys itself in a blazing fireball only to rise again from the ashes...born again.

Think about the question you've just asked me. LoL.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!

Well if you just want to close your eyes and think of the happy thoughts of a particular terrorist then go ahead. I certainly won't stop you. Ignorance is bliss, or so they say. Well, it can also be deadly.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!

Some people would call Ben Gurian a patriot. Others would call him the father of present day Israel. I guess it all depends on your perspective. I have found those who have no clue concerning Israeli history are those who would call Ben Gurion a terrorist. :D
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,697
6,257
126
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!

Some people would call Ben Gurian a patriot. Others would call him the father of present day Israel. I guess it all depends on your perspective. I have found those who have no clue concerning Israeli history are those who would call Ben Gurion a terrorist. :D

So if Bin Laden destroys the US, Israel, and establishes a Global Islamic State, he is a Patriot and not a Terrorists nor has he ever been a Terrorist. :roll:

The problem with your line of reasoning is that labeling anybody anything is premature until they have long since past into History. As long as any Combatant is alive, there's no telling if they'll succeed or not. Hezbollah might be a Terrorist organization or it might be a great liberator ushering in a Millenia of Peace, Prosperity, and Advancement unprecidented in Human History!

If you want a solution, you need to open your eyes and quit being a schlep of propoganda. You can't proclaim Righteousness for yourself and Unrighteousness for your enemy when both use the same Tactics.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!

Some people would call Ben Gurian a patriot. Others would call him the father of present day Israel. I guess it all depends on your perspective. I have found those who have no clue concerning Israeli history are those who would call Ben Gurion a terrorist. :D
On the other hand I've found the winners write the History books.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I think we have become too soft and we no longer practice the true art of War. In WWII the USA Dropped Napalm Tokyo. We had it right. When facing a country where everyone wants you dead, you have to be willing to be as viscious as your enemy. In Iraq we know that Iran is helping the terrorists make better IED's. Yet the USA does not have the guts to attack Iran because we are weak and will wait till they have a nuclear bomb and drop it on us. The President is an idiot. Iran is already engaging both the USA and Isreal in war. If we dont fight back we are fools.

I say no more nice wars, no more surgical strikes. I say kill everyone involved implicitly and explicitly, with extreme prejudice. Why did we develop this MOAB, this Mother Of All Bombs if we are too chicken to use it? Where are the real Generals? If Lebanon will not get rid of Hezbolah then the entire country is an accomplice to the murder of innocent people in Isreal. They refuse to get rid of Hezbolah and they dont care to get rid of these terrorists, because they dont believe they are terrorists. They support these terrorists and they deserve to have to pay for it.

You are either for peace and against terrorism or you deseve to be eliminated.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
I think we have become too soft and we no longer practice the true art of War. In WWII the USA Dropped Napalm Tokyo. We had it right. When facing a country where everyone wants you dead, you have to be willing to be as viscious as your enemy. In Iraq we know that Iran is helping the terrorists make better IED's. Yet the USA does not have the guts to attack Iran because we are weak and will wait till they have a nuclear bomb and drop it on us. The President is an idiot. Iran is already engaging both the USA and Isreal in war. If we dont fight back we are fools.

I say no more nice wars, no more surgical strikes. I say kill everyone involved implicitly and explicitly, with extreme prejudice. Why did we develop this MOAB, this Mother Of All Bombs if we are too chicken to use it? Where are the real Generals? If Lebanon will not get rid of Hezbolah then the entire country is an accomplice to the murder of innocent people in Isreal. They refuse to get rid of Hezbolah and they dont care to get rid of these terrorists, because they dont believe they are terrorists. They support these terrorists and they deserve to have to pay for it.

You are either for peace and against terrorism or you deseve to be eliminated.

You call Iraq a nice war???

:roll:

You're demonizing an entire people and using that as an excuse to annihilate them. You're no better than the terrorists you rail against.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,491
9,712
136
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: piasabird
I think we have become too soft and we no longer practice the true art of War. In WWII the USA Dropped Napalm Tokyo. We had it right. When facing a country where everyone wants you dead, you have to be willing to be as viscious as your enemy. In Iraq we know that Iran is helping the terrorists make better IED's. Yet the USA does not have the guts to attack Iran because we are weak and will wait till they have a nuclear bomb and drop it on us. The President is an idiot. Iran is already engaging both the USA and Isreal in war. If we dont fight back we are fools.

I say no more nice wars, no more surgical strikes. I say kill everyone involved implicitly and explicitly, with extreme prejudice. Why did we develop this MOAB, this Mother Of All Bombs if we are too chicken to use it? Where are the real Generals? If Lebanon will not get rid of Hezbolah then the entire country is an accomplice to the murder of innocent people in Isreal. They refuse to get rid of Hezbolah and they dont care to get rid of these terrorists, because they dont believe they are terrorists. They support these terrorists and they deserve to have to pay for it.

You are either for peace and against terrorism or you deseve to be eliminated.

You call Iraq a nice war???

:roll:

You're demonizing an entire people and using that as an excuse to annihilate them. You're no better than the terrorists you rail against.

Stop playing word games. He said WE are too nice in Iraq. It's the truth, the army we?re fighting hides among and is protected by the populace. This is only possible because we are allowing it.

If we were fighting a real war and were rooting out the terrorists, you already profess that you?d demonize us for it in that second paragraph. Yet when are you ever going to demonize those who use human shields and protect themselves with the lives of their populace?
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!

Some people would call Ben Gurian a patriot. Others would call him the father of present day Israel. I guess it all depends on your perspective. I have found those who have no clue concerning Israeli history are those who would call Ben Gurion a terrorist. :D

So if Bin Laden destroys the US, Israel, and establishes a Global Islamic State, he is a Patriot and not a Terrorists nor has he ever been a Terrorist. :roll:

The problem with your line of reasoning is that labeling anybody anything is premature until they have long since past into History. As long as any Combatant is alive, there's no telling if they'll succeed or not. Hezbollah might be a Terrorist organization or it might be a great liberator ushering in a Millenia of Peace, Prosperity, and Advancement unprecidented in Human History!

If you want a solution, you need to open your eyes and quit being a schlep of propoganda. You can't proclaim Righteousness for yourself and Unrighteousness for your enemy when both use the same Tactics.

Sandorski you can`t make up hypothetical examples to deal with reality?
Also why is it everytime i mentionb the phrase - I have found those who have no clue ...
You always show up.........
I have lived in israel for many many years before coming to the United States.
Heres another example of your cluelessness....Righteousness for yourself and Unrighteousness for your enemy when both use the same Tactics...
Same tactics hardly. I don`t see israeli soldiers cowering behind palestinian or lebanese women and children after exchanging rockets with the enemy.....
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cole

Some of Cole's views on Iraq, Israel, the Middle East, and the Bahá'í religion have attracted considerable controversy.[11]

He has been critical of the George W. Bush administration's policy in Iraq, in particular the decision to disband the Iraqi Army and the treatment of prisoners in Iraq.[12] He disputes the administration's optimistic tone about Iraq's future and questions the administration's motives.

Cole is also a critic of Israel's foreign and military policy and its treatment of Palestinians. He criticizes the nature of America's support for Israel and questions the loyalties of some of Israel's supporters in America, whom he refers to as the "Israel lobby" and "Likudniks."[13] [14]

The veracity of Cole's analysis of matters related to Israel have been questioned by critics, such as Efraim Karsh [15], who claim he lacks sufficient academic background in Israeli history, culture, politics, as well as the Jewish religion. Karsh and others including Christopher Hitchens[16] and Martin Kramer[17] have raised other points of criticism. Cole has responded in turn with a variety of rebuttals.[18] [19] [20]

Despite his criticisms of Israel, he has publicly opposed the movement in Britain to boycott Israeli academics.[2] He has also called Hizbollah attacks on Israel "war crimes", and stated that "[Israel has] every right to defend itself against Nasrallah and his mad bombers" while voicing disapproval for the "wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter in which the Israelis have been engaged against the Lebanese in general." [3]

Nice site BBond to bad this man with all his education is just as biased as most people on these forums.
Only difference is he uses his postion as a professor to brainwash kids who attend that university and to promote his anti israeli agenda.:D
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Done that been there on other threads----but Ben-Gurion is hardly an angel or a visionary-----after beating off the attacking arabs---Israel had the choice of welcoming back innocent
Palistinian landowners that had also fled the fighting---and instead confiscated their propety and land---sending them to concentration camps---which they called refugee camps.
I see no equal treatment regardless of race or creed---lies---all lies---and that was the turning point--early on---where Israel lost the moral highground---and still the right to return festers.----that theft is and remains issue one Israel still refuses to address.

Israel will know no peace until they address that theft.---had Ben-Gurion been a visionary---Israel would be a prosperous nation at peace with its neighbors---and a shining example
of what cultural co-operation can do to make a country flower.
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Done that been there on other threads----but Ben-Gurion is hardly an angel or a visionary-----after beating off the attacking arabs---Israel had the choice of welcoming back innocent
Palistinian landowners that had also fled the fighting---and instead confiscated their propety and land---sending them to concentration camps---which they called refugee camps.
I see no equal treatment regardless of race or creed---lies---all lies---and that was the turning point--early on---where Israel lost the moral highground---and still the right to return festers.----that theft is and remains issue one Israel still refuses to address.

Israel will know no peace until they address that theft.---had Ben-Gurion been a visionary---Israel would be a prosperous nation at peace with its neighbors---and a shining example
of what cultural co-operation can do to make a country flower.

1. The "right of return" was always used as the impossible bargaining chip by the Palestinians, because they knew Israel wouldn't accept it. However, Israel DID eventually offer return or compensation for the refugees, and the Palestinians refused for the same reason they elected Hamas: they don't want peace or compromise with Israel. And of course, the refugees of whom you speak are all dead anyway, so Palestine was basically offered the equivalent of US slavery reparations, and they passed!

2. Theft? The Arabs "stole" it from somebody else, who stole it from the JEWS. So if the Palestinians get "right of return" for the ejection of a past generation, then why don't the Israelis?

Woops, there goes your big theory.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Done that been there on other threads----but Ben-Gurion is hardly an angel or a visionary-----after beating off the attacking arabs---Israel had the choice of welcoming back innocent
Palistinian landowners that had also fled the fighting---and instead confiscated their propety and land---sending them to concentration camps---which they called refugee camps.
I see no equal treatment regardless of race or creed---lies---all lies---and that was the turning point--early on---where Israel lost the moral highground---and still the right to return festers.----that theft is and remains issue one Israel still refuses to address.

Israel will know no peace until they address that theft.---had Ben-Gurion been a visionary---Israel would be a prosperous nation at peace with its neighbors---and a shining example
of what cultural co-operation can do to make a country flower.

lemon law you seem to think or believe that the arabs would have accepted israel had what you call a theft not taken place?

This subject is bigger than a theft. The Arabs hate the jews because they are Jews. It doesn`t matter what Israel does to appease the Arabs. the fact remains the Arabs hate the Jews and will always hate the Jews.
No amount of diplomacy is going to correct that issue.
So please have somebody pinch you and wake you up. :D
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Done that been there on other threads----but Ben-Gurion is hardly an angel or a visionary-----after beating off the attacking arabs---Israel had the choice of welcoming back innocent
Palistinian landowners that had also fled the fighting---and instead confiscated their propety and land---sending them to concentration camps---which they called refugee camps.
I see no equal treatment regardless of race or creed---lies---all lies---and that was the turning point--early on---where Israel lost the moral highground---and still the right to return festers.----that theft is and remains issue one Israel still refuses to address.

Israel will know no peace until they address that theft.---had Ben-Gurion been a visionary---Israel would be a prosperous nation at peace with its neighbors---and a shining example
of what cultural co-operation can do to make a country flower.

The Palestinians never accepted the state of Israel, certainly not 40 years ago.

There's no place for cultural cooperation, these are just dreams by left wing idealists who really believe all people are alike. The Palestinian - Arab - mentallity is a long, long way away from any Western mentallity, including Jews'. This goes some way to explain their failure of integration in European countries.
Yes, there are individuals who succeed, but the general case is grim.

You can call it being backwards or you can call it proudly preserving their historical roots, but they are living in very different world.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
The same could be said of the various Christian sects---catholics could never accept protestants and vice versa. But it happened in the United States---shortly after Europe had allowed itself to be torn apart in an orgy of killing along precisely those lines. The UN in its wisdom or lack of wisdom allowed Israel to become the defacto government for a mixed bag of Jews and Palistinians. Israel then had the choice of being the government for all the people---or to be eletist---and decide Jews had more rights than Palistinians. When SOME native Palisatinians fought against the new State of Israel---Israel opted to punush ALL Palistinians.----and thus added theft to the crime list.

Here we are 58 years later---and nothing has changed----Israelies have decided they are better than anyone else----they still engage in collective punishment----and drive the hatreds they think are inherihant to higher levels.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,697
6,257
126
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Dari states-- What about the Irgun and its terrorist leader Ben-Gurion? He went on to become Prime Minister, right? What does that tell you?

I see no mention of Ben Gurion being a terrorist. Quite frankly in Israel he is not known as a terrorist.

here is what wikipdia says bout Ben Gurion--Ben-Gurion was at the political forefront of the Labor Zionist movement during the fifteen years leading to the creation of the State of Israel when Labor Zionism had become the dominant tendency in the World Zionist Organization.

An austere, ascetic idealist, he was marked by a commitment to the establishment of a Jewish state. In the Israeli declaration of independence, he stressed that the new nation would "uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex".

Ben-Gurion encouraged Jews to join the British military at the same time as he helped orchestrate the illegal immigration of thousands of European Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time when the British sought to bar new Jewish immigration. He is also considered the architect of both the Federation of Jewish Labor, the Histadrut which created a Jewish state within the British state and the Haganah, the paramilitary force of the Labor Zionist movement that facilitated underground immigration, defended kibbutzim and other Jewish settlements against attack and provided the backbone of the future Israeli Defense Forces. Both of these developments put pressure on the British to either grant the Jews a state in Palestine or quit the League of Nations Mandate - they did the latter in 1947 on the heels of a United Nations resolution partitioning the territory between the Jews and Arabs.

During the pre-statehood period in Palestine, Ben-Gurion represented the mainstream Jewish establishment and was known as a moderate, with whose Haganah organization the British dealt with frequently, sometimes in order to arrest more radical groups involved in resistance against them. He was strongly opposed to the Revisionist Zionist movement led by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and his successor Menachem Begin.

He was also involved in occasional violent resistance during the short period of time his organization cooperated with Menachem Begin's Irgun, though he refused to be involved in terrorism of any kind, and insisted that violence only be used against military targets. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of humiliating (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused.[1]

He passed the resolution to declare the independence of Israel on May 14, 1948, by vote of 6 to 4, against strong opposition from both sides of the political spectrum of the Jewish community in Palestine, even in his own party.

During the first weeks of Israel's independence, he passed the decision to disband all resistance groups and replace them with a single formal army, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). To that end, Ben-Gurion gave the order to open fire upon and sink a ship named Altalena, which carried ammunition for the Irgun (also called Etzel) resistance group. That command remains controversial to this day.

Ben Gurion led Israel during its War of Independence. He became Prime Minister on February 25, 1949, the day after the first armistice with Egypt was signed to end hostilities. He would remain in that post until 1963, except for a period of nearly two years between 1954 and 1955. As Premier, he oversaw the establishment of the state's institutions. He presided over various national projects aimed at the rapid development of the country and its population: Operation Magic Carpet, the airlift of Jews from Arab countries, the construction of the National Water Carrier, rural development projects and the establishment of new towns and cities. In particular, he called for pioneering settlement in outlying areas, especially in the Negev.

In 1953 Ben-Gurion announced his intention to withdraw from government and settle in the Kibbutz Sde-Boker, in the Israeli Negev. He returned to office in 1955 assuming the post of Defense Minister and later prime-minister.

Returning to government, Ben Gurion collaborated with the British and French to plan the 1956 Sinai War in which Israel stormed the Sinai Peninsula in retaliation for raids by Egypt thus giving British and French forces a pretext to intervene in order to secure the Suez Canal after Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser had announced its nationalization. Intervention by the United States and the United Nations forced the British, French and Israelis to back down.

Ben-Gurion was among the founders of Mapai which governed Israel during the first three decades of its existence. He stepped down as Prime Minister, on personal grounds (as he explained) in 1963, and, in fact, nominated Levi Eshkol to be his successor. One year later a rivalry developed between the two on the issue of the Lavon Affair. Ben Gurion broke with the party in June 1965 over Eshkol's handling of the Lavon affair and formed a new party, Rafi which won ten seats in the Knesset. As tensions loomed before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in 1967, Ben-Gurion strongly urged that Israel must have a Great Power on its side. After the war ended with large Israeli territorial gains, Ben-Gurion argued that other than keeping a united Jerusalem, Israel should not occupy more Arab land.

In 1968, when Rafi merged with Mapai to form the Labour Alignment, Ben Gurion refused to reconcile with his old party and formed another new party, The State List, which won four seats in the 1969 election. Ben Gurion retired from politics in 1970 and spent his last years on his kibbutz.

Just a footnote-- The Altalena Affair exposed deep rifts between the main political factions in Israel, and continued to be a major source of bitter controversy in the Israeli political discourse for decades. Proponents of Ben Gurion's actions praised them as essential to establishing the Government's authority and discouraging factionalism and formation of rival armies. Furthermore, Ben Gurion's supporters argue, a state must have a monopoly over the use of force (see Max Weber for a detailed discussion of this idea). Etzel, by attempting to import weapons to use as a private militia, was undermining the legitimacy of the fledgling State of Israel.

Opponents condemned the unnecessary violence and claimed that opportunities for a peaceful resolution were intentionally frustrated by Ben Gurion and top IDF officers. As events have faded into history, the debate on Altalena in Israel has become less intense, though it was reignited for a short time when a political party headed by Menachem Begin won the Israeli general elections in 1977. Opponents still hold a grudge against Labor for discriminating against them before and after the creation of the state and hold his leadership responsible for not doing enough to defend Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. They believe that had Ben Gurion allowed the Altalena to resupply fighters in Jerusalem, the war would have ended with more territory for Israel.

Years later, on the eve of the Six-Day War, in June 1967 (after Ben-Gurion had retired from political activity and Levi Eshkol was Prime Minister), Menachem Begin joined a delegation which visited Sde Boker to ask David Ben-Gurion to return and accept the premiership again. After that meeting, Ben-Gurion said that if he had then known Begin as he did now, the face of history would have been different.

Yitzhak Rabin commanded over the sinking of Altalena, and allegedly took part in the shooting. His role in the Altalena affair became a central issue among right-wing critics during his second tenure as Prime Minister (1992-1995).

Come one, man, you're much smarter than that. Obviously ben-Gurion isn't seen as a terrorist in Israel because they have other synonyms for him: revolutionary leader, freedom fighter, liberator...and so on. Ironically, that's what Arabs consider Nasrallah and bin Laden, even Salladin back in the day. From a higher level, everyone may be right, but does it change the fact that ben-Gurion used the similar tactics as every other terrorist leader on Earth? No. Therefore, be careful when you call others terrorists because you'll just as likely be insulting the founding father of the modern state of Israel.

Dari you are real good at double talk. I am glad my little history lesson for you helped clear up the fact that Ben Gurion was not a terrorist.

Ben Gurion accomplished his most important goal and we both know what this was. To create the state of israel.
Nuff said!
So he was a successful terrorist then!

Some people would call Ben Gurian a patriot. Others would call him the father of present day Israel. I guess it all depends on your perspective. I have found those who have no clue concerning Israeli history are those who would call Ben Gurion a terrorist. :D

So if Bin Laden destroys the US, Israel, and establishes a Global Islamic State, he is a Patriot and not a Terrorists nor has he ever been a Terrorist. :roll:

The problem with your line of reasoning is that labeling anybody anything is premature until they have long since past into History. As long as any Combatant is alive, there's no telling if they'll succeed or not. Hezbollah might be a Terrorist organization or it might be a great liberator ushering in a Millenia of Peace, Prosperity, and Advancement unprecidented in Human History!

If you want a solution, you need to open your eyes and quit being a schlep of propoganda. You can't proclaim Righteousness for yourself and Unrighteousness for your enemy when both use the same Tactics.

Sandorski you can`t make up hypothetical examples to deal with reality?
Also why is it everytime i mentionb the phrase - I have found those who have no clue ...
You always show up.........
I have lived in israel for many many years before coming to the United States.
Heres another example of your cluelessness....Righteousness for yourself and Unrighteousness for your enemy when both use the same Tactics...
Same tactics hardly. I don`t see israeli soldiers cowering behind palestinian or lebanese women and children after exchanging rockets with the enemy.....

1) My hypothetical is merely your stated fact in a mirror.

2) Obligatory pre-emptive insult for anyone who dares disagree, which will be used at my discretion: Of course only an idiot won't be able to see this

3) Where you have lived is precisely the problem. You are too close to the conflict, too indoctrinated in a side of the conflict, to see that Israel's strategy does not solve anything. It merely postpones the inevitable need for Israel to deal with its' neighbours in a civilized manner.

4) Is hiding behind what is available a question of Morality? Is it Moral to fire missiles from the safety of the air, from distant Artillery, or the relative safety of an armoured vehicle when your enemy has nothing equivalent? Isn't fighting one on one with Infantry the most Moral form of fighting and the most Courageous?

The "same tactics" are the tactics of making the whole pay for the sins of the few. Hezzbolah, despite purposely targetting civilians, is even less effective than Israel who claims not to target civilians. In the end the motivations of neither really matters, civilians end up taking the brunt of violence and the survivors merely harden their stance towards the "enemy".