Israel and America are Making some powerful mistakes

[Starbuck1975]

You know what ? I'm in the Arab world. We are at the mercy of traitors like Mubarak who are basically agents for the US administration doing exactly what it tells them. The majority of Arab people support Hizbullah.

Well if you choose to support a terrorist organization, and those terrorists engage in military operations while using your neighborhood as a fighting position, don't complain when someone drops a bomb on your head.

And what exactly has Mubarak done that is traitorous to Egypt? You keep spouting paranoid rhetoric and nonsense that has no basis in reality.

Israel's seizure of the land of Pallestine was still recent. Arab nations did not even recognize Israel as a state back then. Israel was the agressor.

The Arab world may not have recognized Israel as a state, but guess what...TOO BAD...perhaps the creation of Israel was the greatest blunder in recent history, but the nation of Israel does exist, and until the Muslim world accepts that fact, there will be no peace...get over it.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: toxigun

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: toxigun

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: toxigun
I believe that the following image precisely describes the conflict between Israel and the terrorist organizations.
Image

That about sums it up. Muslim extremists fight from a position of cowardice.

Indeed. And that's the reason for the majority of the civilian casualties (the rest is due to incorrect intelligence). Nobody in the IDF is deliberately killing civilians.

Originally posted by: toxigun

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: toxigun
I believe that the following image precisely describes the conflict between Israel and the terrorist organizations.
Image

That about sums it up. Muslim extremists fight from a position of cowardice.

Indeed. And that's the reason for the majority of the civilian casualties (the rest is due to incorrect intelligence). Nobody in the IDF is deliberately killing civilians.

Israel has an established tradition of avoiding killing civilians.

I can assure you that in the vast majority of the above cases, the "massacres" happaned precisely because of the behaviour described in the image - the terrorist hide in civilian population and use them as human shields. Those are facts.
Israel doesn't go and kill civilians because it wants to kill arabs. They die because they are used as human shields by the terrorists that live among them.
On the other side, the muslim terrorists are the ones that DELIBERATELY target civilian population.

Like this case for instance ?

What really happened in Jenin?

?We know that many houses were destroyed and 800 families don?t have a place where to live any more. In 13 days of heavy attacks the Israeli troops prevented any humanitarian
help. For 16 days ambulances were not able to enter the camp. Many women, children and old people were killed without fighting they were civilians not fighters. A 65 years-old man Muhammad Abu Sba?a was shot dead by Israeli soldiers after he warned the driver of an approaching bulldozer that his house was packed with families sheltering from the fighting.



Fadwa Jamma a nurse was shot dead by Israeli troops when she tried to help a wounded
man. They could see that she was a nurse but even like that they killed her. This is what we know by personal testimonies. We don?t know the number of killed people because the
Israelis buried them to hide their crime, we don?t know the number of the missing people
because they still under the rubble, we don?t know how many are in jail. After the event we can?t say too much because the access is limited to the camp, they don?t allow UN to send a mission to investigate what really happened in the camp, journalists were prevented to enter the camp as well, they didn?t allow bomb experts to enter, no humanitarian help was allowed too.? Said to Jerusalem Forum Patricia, a British girl who works for Health Development Information Policy in Ramallah.



The following is the testimony of Rufaida Damaj, Fadwa?s sister who was wounded and
survived. From her bed in Jenin hospital she said what happened when Fadwa Jamma
was Killed.

"We were woken at 3.30 in the morning by a big explosion," she said. "I heard that one guy

was wounded outside our house. So my sister and I went to do our duty and to help the guyand give him first aid. There were some guys from the resistance outside and
we had to ask them before we moved anywhere. I told them that my sister was a nurse, I asked them to let us go to the wounded.

"Before I had finished talking to the guys the Israelis started shooting. I got a bullet in my legand I fell down and broke my knee. My sister tried to come and help me. I told her, " I am wounded.? She said, ? I'm wounded too.? She had been shot in the side of her abdomen. Then they shot her again in the heart. I asked where she was wounded but she didn't answer, she made a terrible sound and tried to breathe three times."



Ms Jamma was wearing a white nurse's uniform clearly marked with a red crescent, the
emblem of Palestinian medical workers, when the soldiers shot her. Ms Damaj said the
soldiers could clearly see the women because they were standing under a bright light,
and could hear their cries for help because they were "very near". As Ms Damaj shouted to the Palestinian fighters to get help, the Israeli soldiers fired again: a second bullet went up through her leg into her chest.

Eventually an ambulance was allowed through to rescue Ms Damaj. Her sister was already
dead. It was to be one of the last times an ambulance was allowed near the wounded in
Jenin camp until after the battle ended.



The testimony of Atiya?s widow. Atiya was a 44-years-old Palestinian civilian killed by the
Israeli troops.


As she told his story, her orphaned children clung to her side. "There was shooting all around the house. At about 5pm I went to check the building. I told my husband two bombs had come into the house. He went to check. After two minutes he called me to come, but he was having difficulty calling. I went with the children. He was still standing. In my life I've never seen the way he looked at me. He said, 'I'm wounded', and started bleeding from his mouth and nose. The children started crying, and he fell down. I asked him what happened but he couldn't talk.

"His eyes went to the children. He looked at them one by one. Then he looked at me. Then all his body was shaking. When I looked, there was a bullet in his head. I tried to call an ambulance, I was screaming for anybody to call an ambulance. One came but it was sent back by the Israelis.

Most of the major news services including middle east news services came out after the fact stating jenin never happenned. Also if you look online with an opened mind not a minf that has been brainwashed into believeing a falsehood you will find there is more evidence that Jenin never hapenned than evidence that if did. Also since people like to qoute wikipedia do a search for jenin it will suprise you. but then again you might just decide to say it still happenned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenin_massacre

This one argument amongst many that will never be settled.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: kage69

US soldiers do not strap bombs around their waists and blow themselves up in crowded cafes. US soldiers do not fly airplanes full of passengers deliberately into buildings. US soldiers do not videotape themselves beheading kidnapped captives in the name of Islam. US soldiers do not publicly execute people in stadiums (i.e. the Taliban). US soldiers do not hang the charred bodies of victims from bridges and dance in celebration.

It is these MUSLIMS who are the barbarians. And it is the people like you who support them who are the filth of humanity. YOU are the Enemy.

While you are entitled to your opinion, drop the self-righteous condemnation bull- it's not helping your position. Just a suggestion, but what could help it is tying to see the issue from the opposing veiwpoint. Expecting non-Americans to see things in an American light (even when it's happening on their front door step, not ours) seems like wishful thinking, at best. Keep in mind also that we are divided by stark cultural differences that place importance on different values. Ultimately it is the result that matter most, not so much the way it is achieved. For instance,

"US soldiers do not strap bombs around their waists and blow themselves up in crowded cafes."

True enough, but US soldiers do bomb areas that result in civilian deaths.

"US soldiers do not fly airplanes full of passengers deliberately into buildings."

True again, but they do deliberately destroy buildings, just in a more efficient and accurate way which doesn't claim the life of the perpetrator.

"US soldiers do not videotape themselves beheading kidnapped captives in the name of Islam."

No, but they have made pics of themselves whilst interrogating and sexually humiliating detainess, all in the name of democracy. That doesn't sound as aggregious to us as we're both Americans and weren't brought up like Muslims. Cutting of throats is considered the cleanest way to kill something in Islam. Being naked and humiliated in the presence of females is a big deal to them, it makes us look like the psychopathic barbarians. We take pics of blown apart Iraqi children and paste them all over the news. This isn't an issue where one party is blameless in it's conduct.


"US soldiers do not publicly execute people in stadiums (i.e. the Taliban)."

Yep, although we do perform public executions here in the States. Probably doesn't make a huge amount of difference for an Arab who lumps servicemen and civilians in the same category the exact same way so many Americans lump all Muslims in the same category as Islamic terrorists.

"US soldiers do not hang the charred bodies of victims from bridges and dance in celebration."

A specific barbaric act that might not have a literal equivalent in out Armed Forces, but it's moot considering our guys do have a history of taping themselves executing wounded combatants, taking 'trophies,' and committing a host of other very questionable acts. Passions are high on both sides, and the bad apples common to any group will give in and commit atrocities. It seems this cannot be avoided, no matter the conflict.

"It is these MUSLIMS who are the barbarians. And it is the people like you who support them who are the filth of humanity. YOU are the Enemy."

Well these MUSLIMS had impressive advances in medicine, astronomy, architecture, art, and social services when the majority of Europeans were still wearing animal skins, didn't bathe, and would sooner kill each other than say hello. Let's not get too carried away shall we? Keep in mind as well there are far more moderate, peaceful, open-minded Muslims in the world than there are violent ones bent on killing. Is an Arab from Dubai equally as barbaric as some Chechen jihadi? What would you say if some Indonesian proclaimed all Americans to be barbaric killers who needed to be elimnated en masse because some Christian nut bombed an abortion clinic?

The world is not black and white, now it's time to start acting like it.

I want these al Qaeda nuts dead and buried as much as you do, but I'm not willing to have our place in the world, and our future generations, endangered because of it. This is fight in which we need touse our brains, not our balls.

I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?
Think about it.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

There is no justification for intentionally attacking civilians...ever...end of discussion.

Does that apply to the US and Israel too ?

No western nation is safe from Islamic extremism...there are active cells even in Canada...even nations like France, who have been very critical of American military engagements in the Middle East, have to contend with a fairly sizeable Muslim population with a propensity for violence...remember when Paris nearly burned a few months back?

They were not especially Muslims they were immigrants from different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Actually its Iraqis and foreign fighters who are causing the most civilian deaths in Iraq...in many cases, these insurgents are not even focusing on viable military targets.

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And here it is in the end...the irrational party line with no basis in reality.

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Whats interesting is most people will agree to disagree.
While I am afraid there are those who could not even agree to disagree. No matter how factual the rebuttal sites were or how independant they were.
Since they wouldn`t back up your use of middle east sites as well as sites that are slanted towards the partucular views of some people.
I guess we will just have to say - someday we will know the truth albeit not in this lifetime.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

The animals are the US soldiers who massacre thousands in Iraq. The animals are the ones who torture the Iraqis and rape women in prisons and take photos for their amusements. The US is an emperialistic evil state which call people terrorists for defending their countries and is currently run by maniacs like you who are only gonna bring it down. Israel is one of its military bases in the region. Believe it or not, US and Israel are losing grip; things are only gonna get worrse for them from now on and there is nothing you can do about it.

Oddly enough though, the people who do that in the US army, while pathetic and cowardly are a minority. As well, the US army dicplines those as it is not US policy to perform such acts. The enemy the US fights though, would reward such acts within it's ranks, yet these are the people you think of as morally better. The people you think of as morally better preach the doctorine of killing innocents, killing children and woman, making no difference between combatment and civillian, on purpose. While yes, the US army has killed civilians, it is not there policy to murder everyone, and there are many cases of US army personal giving there lives to save civllians. The people you defend go out of there way to kill the innocent. Those are the ones you think of as morally superior.

The US is occupying Iraq because of oil and yes murdering Iraqi civilians is a policy of the US army. When the US army could not deal with resistance in Fallujah they bombed the hell out of it killing thousands of civilians in a matter of days. Now how can killing civilians be not a policy of US army when its bombers are performing this organized process of bombing thousands of civilians. Besides soldiers who were involved in Abo Ghareib scandal admitted receiving orders to do what they did from higher ranking officers. Again, you are calling people who defend their country terrorists which is a classic practice of colonialist countries.

Then I ask you why are not 100% of the people defending there country?
Would seem to me for your arguments to hold water the was would not be in Iraq...the war would be with all the people of Iraq...
I really think you have been brainwashed into believeing things that are not 100% correct.
As I recall one time Israel and Egypt went at it during the 6 day war and subsequently shortly there after Egypt and Israel started having diplomatic relations....
Just another case and point where war was a good thing.
Of course you could argue it is better to be freinds than to be enemies with the power in that region.
Thereby insuring your whole military machine would stay intact...
Things that make you go hmmm

Why should 100% of Iraqis defend their country. This does not happen in reality. Idon't understand your logic.

As for peace with Egypt. I'm sorry but you don't know anything about what happened. I'm Egyptian. Egypt and Israel did not have peace after 1967. In fact, Israel occupied Sinai in 1967. They refused to give back the land or to negotiate a settlement until the 1973 October War. Only after this war did Israel accept negotiations.

In October 1973, Egypt and Syria launched another war against Israel, after the Israeli government headed by Golda Meir rebuffed Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's offers to negotiate a settlement. The Egyptians crossed the Suez Canal on the afternoon of October 6, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish religious calendar. The Israeli government had ignored repeated intelligence warnings. They were convinced that Israeli arms were a sufficient deterrent to any aggressor. Sadat had twice announced his intention to go to war, but nothing had happened. When the intelligence reports were finally believed, on the morning of the attack, PM Meir and Defense Minister Dayan decided not to mobilize reserves.

The Israelis were caught by surprise in more ways than one. Egyptians poured huge numbers of troops across the canal unopposed and began setting up beachhead. The Israel Army had neglected basic maintenance tasks and drill. As troops mustered, it became apparent that equipment was missing and tanks were out of commission. The line of outposts built as watch posts along the Suez canal - the Bar Lev line, was used instead as a line of fortifications intended to hold off the Egyptians as long as possible. A tiny number of soldiers faced the Egyptian onslaught and were wiped out after stubborn resistance. The Soviets had sold the Egyptians new technology - better surface to air missiles (SAM) and hand held Sager anti-tank weapons. Israel had counted on air power to tip the balance on the battlefield, and had neglected artillery. But the air-force was initially neutralized because of the effectiveness of SAM missiles, until Israel could destroy the radar stations controlling them. Futile counterattacks continued in Sinai for several days as Israeli divisions coped with traffic jams that prevented concentration of forces, and with effective Egyptian resistance.

Egyptians crossed the Suez canal and retook a strip of the Sinai peninsula. Initial Israeli attempts to oppose the Egyptians without artillery support were fruitless. SAMs took a heavy toll of Israeli air power. After sustaining heavy losses, Israeli forces rallied and, with artillery support in place and the radar controlling the SAMs neutralized, Israeli troops crossed the canal. General Ariel Sharon, disobeying the orders of cautious superiors, ran ahead of logistics and support to develop the bridgehead on the Egyptian side of the Suez canal, and to cut off the entire Egyptian third army. Encouraged by this success, Israeli troops tried to advance and conquer Suez city, an adventure which proved to be disastrous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: ????? ??? ????????; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or ????? ??? ?????, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: ??? ???????; transliterated: harb October or ??? ?????, harb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.[2]

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24?48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel?the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.


##########
http://www.adl.org/israel/record/yomkippur.asp

In an effort to force Israel to unilaterally surrender captured lands, Egypt and Syria jointly attacked Israel on October 6, 1973, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Other Arab states contributed troops and financial support. Caught by surprise, Israel suffered severe losses in human life and equipment. Following an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet airlift to the Arab states, the U.S. sent an airlift to Israel enabling her to recover from earlier setbacks. Saudi Arabia then led the Arab world in an oil embargo imposed on the United States and other western nations.

Following a cease-fire, the war officially ended on October 22, 1973 but fighting continued on the Egyptian-Israeli front and the U.S. and the Soviet Union were nearly dragged into a full-scale superpower confrontation. Such a confrontation was avoided and when hostilities finally ended, Israel held an additional 165 square miles of territory from Syria, and had encircled the Egyptian Third Army on the west bank of the Suez Canal. Egyptian forces held two areas of Israeli territory along the east bank of the canal. Israel, Egypt and Syria all held prisoners of war.

On October 22, 1973, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 338, calling on all parties to begin "implementation of Security Council Resolution 242 in all its parts" through negotiations.
###############
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/yankee/yomkippur1973.htm

The October 1973 War (known in Israel as the Yom Kippur War and in the Arab world as the Ramadan War) developed rapidly, and the coordinated Egyptian-Syrian offensive caught Israel by surprise. On September 28, Palestinian guerrillas detained an Austrian train carrying Soviet Jews en route to Israel. Subsequent Egyptian and Syrian military deployments were interpreted by Israel as defensive actions in anticipation of Israeli reprisals. For one week, Israel postponed mobilizing its troops. Not until the morning of Yom Kippur (October 6), about six hours before the Arab offensive, were Israeli officials convinced that war was imminent; a mobilization of the reserves was then ordered. In the early days of the war, the IDF suffered heavy losses as Egyptian forces crossed the Suez Canal and overran Israeli strongholds, while Syrians marched deep into the Golan Heights. Israel launched its counteroffensive first against the Syrian front, and only when it had pushed the Syrians back well east of the 1967 cease-fire line (by October 15) did Israel turn its attention to the Egyptian front. In ten days of fighting, Israel pushed the Egyptian army back across the canal, and the IDF made deep incursions into Egypt. On October 24, with Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway and the Soviet Union threatening direct military intervention, the UN imposed a cease-fire.
##############

Finally call it what you will - but I find that when using examples to prove points people need to post the whole total story. Not just parts that back up certain view points.

Good day!

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: peachee

Originally posted by: kage69
The world is not black and white, now it's time to start acting like it.

Originally posted by: peachee
my response highlighted
True. I can't believe how many extremists on these Anandtech forums come out of the woodwork just to advocate HYPOCRITICAL killing of civilians just because they feel the have to support Israel. A question one should ask - in war are there innocent civilians?
I mean can't they see how blind they are and how obviously hypocritical they are?
Theres nothing hypocritical about people supporting Israel vs others supporting Hezbollah.
Whats interesting are thoser people who have problems with civilians being killed by the israeli`s especially when israel has long had a standing policy of telling people to leave before they attack. In contrast hezbollah uses innocent palestinians as human shields to divert attention from tyhe fact they have always abused the lebanses and palestinian civilains.History shows you can never create peace with war. Yet, they fall for politicians speeches who say somehow starting a war can create peace.
Thats not a true statement history does not show that at all. there are many recent examples of peace happening because of war. Egypt acknowledging Israel after Yon Kippur.. Japan during WW2......
Now, granted most people including those of us supporting Israel wish that through diplomacy a lasting peace could be instated. But that will not happen. Because some groups of people as well as a few nations do not want to recognize israel`s right to exist or occupy land that down through history has been proven to be the land of the Jews.
What i don`t understand is how those people who say diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy actually fail to realize the above facts i just stated need to be addressed before there will ever be a lasting peace. I am sorry, but if I was Israel I would never sit at any table where I am expected to make peace with those who question my right to exist.

You can identify an extremist when say things like: Israel is always innocent. Arabs are all bad. So, U.S. should kill Arabs.
(While I'm reading their rant I'm thinking what's wrong with these blood lusting crazies don't they realize how hypocritical they are).
You see again we donot say that civilains need to die. But what I donot understand is how people who think like you can say that Hezbollah is correct in using innocent civilians as well as UN observers as human shields. If yuo are truly going tot ake the stance you are taking you need to see both sides. As it is your very words are making you appear to be one of those very people that you call "hypocritical".
Just somethings for you to think about. 😀

I guess they fall for the same propaganda and can't think past the obvious hypocrisy and only think about their loyalty instead of using reason and common sense to bring about honest peace and civility.

Too bad this isn`t the 23rd century when supposedly all nations will be at peace and there will be no war or famine or need for posessions and such. We will all live in harmony loving and caring and accepting our fellow human being.

 

[Gamer X]

So IrateLeaf, Jenin never happened, the US Never killed any civilians in spite of the sites that I linked to and the videos. Suit yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

As for the October 1973 war, I know the Israeli propaganda version which is all lying to hide their defeat in it. The real version is what I qouted. The Israeli counterattack was disastrous for them. They lost ALL tanks which crossed the Suez canal and their troops got basically slaughtered. If it was not for US airlift the Egyptian army could enter Tel Aviv. The Egyptian army even shot down US fighters and captured US pilots. The "Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway" were shreds of soldiers who got captured. Egypt captured around 2000 Israeli soldiers in this war.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
If it was not for US airlift the Egyptian army could enter Tel Aviv.

The Egyptian army would have never entered Tel Aviv. How can an army function when it's country had been turned into a huge parking lot made out of glass?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?
Think about it.

Yes

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
So IrateLeaf, Jenin never happened, the US Never killed any civilians in spite of the sites that I linked to and the videos. Suit yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

As for the October 1973 war, I know the Israeli propaganda version which is all lying to hide their defeat in it. The real version is what I qouted. The Israeli counterattack was disastrous for them. They lost ALL tanks which crossed the Suez canal and their troops got basically slaughtered. If it was not for US airlift the Egyptian army could enter Tel Aviv. The Egyptian army even shot down US fighters and captured US pilots. The "Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway" were shreds of soldiers who got captured. Egypt captured around 2000 Israeli soldiers in this war.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.

Actally you are so wrong in so many ways. Egypt and Syria after initially suprising israel got there heads handed to them on a platter. There is no reputable internet site that agrees with Egypts propagandized or we could say bastardized version of what happenned.

I quote-- The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel?the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.[/quote]

even in defeat you are claiming victory. When the truth of the matter was israel never intended to keep what they gave back.
I bet it just makes you angry that the country from which you claim yo be from was the first middle east country to formally recognize Israel as a nation.

HISTORY
1973 October 6: Surprise attacks are launched on Israel controlled territories by Egypt and Syria. Egypt attacks their own territory of Sinai that is under Israeli occupation, while Syria attacks their own territory of the Golan Heights that is also under Israeli occupation. Syria gains several victories during the first days.
October 11: After initial victories the Syrian-led troops have lost the Golan Heights, and Israeli troops are now advancing into Syria.
October 16: After Egyptian victories on the Sinai, advancing about 10 km into the peninsula, Israel starts getting their first victories, and on this day they are crossing the Suez Canal.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?
Think about it.

Yes

actually if thats the case then on both sides innocent civilians get killed daily...so what besides lay down your arms do you suggest be done?

 

[Puffnstuff]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&hl=en

This movie says it all.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?
Think about it.

Yes

actually if thats the case then on both sides innocent civilians get killed daily

Of course. I know Hezbollah is many times worse but that doesn't absolve Israel.

...so what besides lay down your arms do you suggest be done?

Nope, instead of escalating things they should have just written off the soldiers kidnapped as casualties of war.

 

[kage69]

I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?

Yes.


The average 12yr. old Israeli girl at the mall shopping with friends has done nothing to warrant being blown up and shredded by ball bearings, nails, and rat poison.

Likewise, I don't think the Palestinian children who are simply on a picnic with relatives in a grove have done anything to warrant being killed with light machine-gun fire or tank rounds.

I think Palestinian kids harrassing Israeli troops with stones and slings is pushing it though. Do they deserve to be killed? No, but they're intent to harrass and instigate precludes them from having innocent intentions. Like I said earlier, it's not a black and white issue.

 

[will889]

Originally posted by: kage69

I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?

Yes.


The average 12yr. old Israeli girl at the mall shopping with friends has done nothing to warrant being blown up and shredded by ball bearings, nails, and rat poison.

Likewise, I don't think the Palestinian children who are simply on a picnic with relatives in a grove have done anything to warrant being killed with light machine-gun fire or tank rounds.

I think Palestinian kids harrassing Israeli troops with stones and slings is pushing it though. Do they deserve to be killed? No, but they're intent to harrass and instigate precludes them from having innocent intentions. Like I said earlier, it's not a black and white issue.

Yeah ... you have a point. I mean to think that those barefoot kids are chucking rocks or shouting at those Isrealis who are driving tanks over flatened houses like Imperial Nazis - how dare they. And you're right it sure doesn't "warrant" their being run over by the tank or shot to death. Maybe the tank driver should just step out of the tank and pull out some numchucks and break a few bones ....?

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: will889

Originally posted by: kage69

I would have to ask one question -- In a war is there such a thing as innocent civilains?

Yes.


The average 12yr. old Israeli girl at the mall shopping with friends has done nothing to warrant being blown up and shredded by ball bearings, nails, and rat poison.

Likewise, I don't think the Palestinian children who are simply on a picnic with relatives in a grove have done anything to warrant being killed with light machine-gun fire or tank rounds.

I think Palestinian kids harrassing Israeli troops with stones and slings is pushing it though. Do they deserve to be killed? No, but they're intent to harrass and instigate precludes them from having innocent intentions. Like I said earlier, it's not a black and white issue.

Yeah ... you have a point. I mean to think that those barefoot kids are chucking rocks or shouting at those Isrealis who are driving tanks over flatened houses like Imperial Nazis - how dare they. And you're right it sure doesn't "warrant" their being run over by the tank or shot to death. Maybe the tank driver should just step out of the tank and pull out some numchucks and break a few bones ....?

Your spin on what kage69 was trying to say is totally wrong.
Kage69 was laying blame on both sides not just one side.
I commend kahe69 for his stand.
His stand is the correct stand.
Those of us who are for the Israeli`s or for the Palestinians/Hezbollah I believe even though our rhetoric is strong and appears to be unwavering we all agree that killing of children for whatever reason on both sides is wrong.
There are those who would argue that killing wrong totally.
There are those who would argue that if israel would disarm there would be a lasting peace in the middle east...
Thats true therer would after about 3 years the nation of Israel would be no more.

Yet I find it interesting that those same people do not advocate all the other nations of the middle east to unilateraly disarm along with Israel......

Things that make you go hmmmm

 

[Starbuck1975]

As for the October 1973 war, I know the Israeli propaganda version which is all lying to hide their defeat in it.

Historical revisionism at its finest. Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack on a religious holiday...not something to be proud of there.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.

So if Israeli forces lost all of their armor, and were slaughtered as you claim, how did they manage to hold on to the Sinai for so long???

The Yom Kippur war resulted in Egypt recognizing Israel and establishing diplomatic relations after the Camp David Accords...and drifting away from Soviet influences.

 

[Gamer X]

Historical revisionism at its finest. Egypt and Syria launch a surprise attack on a religious holiday...not something to be proud of there

So you want us to arrange for a day that suits them or what ?

So if Israeli forces lost all of their armor, and were slaughtered as you claim, how did they manage to hold on to the Sinai for so long???

That proves that you have no clue. All of this happened in 1973. That's why the 6 year occupation of Sinai was put to an end.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
That proves that you have no clue. All of this happened in 1973. That's why the 6 year occupation of Sinai was put to an end.

No, Israel had controlled the entire Sinai peninsula for more than 12 years. After the 1973 war Israel had kept Sinai for 6 additional years; Israel didn't give up Sinai as a direct result of the war. It had not been recaptured by Egyptian forces as you try to portray; You are clearly full of Egyptian propaganda crap.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So you want us to arrange for a day that suits them or what ?

No, but a pre-emptive strike without provokation is the only way the Muslim alliance could gain any military advantage over Israel...which didn't last them very long.

That proves that you have no clue. All of this happened in 1973. That's why the 6 year occupation of Sinai was put to an end.

Um...no...read the quote below, go pick up a history book, and then come back.

No, Israel had controlled the entire Sinai peninsula for more than 12 years. After the 1973 war Israel had kept Sinai for 6 additional years; Israel didn't give up Sinai as a direct result of the war. It had not been recaptured by Egyptian forces as you try to portray; You are clearly full of Egyptian propaganda crap.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

What about the Vietnamese, were they different? Or how about the North Koreans and Chinese during the Korean War?

The fact is the US and Israel invited themselves to the region. The best they can do is to make friends, don't you think?

Or would you rather this fighting go on forever?

Funny thing about Korea is we didnt take the glooves off, if we did, we would have been bombing mainland China.

Vietnam, we didnt take the glooves off either. We fought a war against the North but never invaded it to oust our enemies. One thing that is interesting was to force the peace we went on a massive air bombardment of the north. After this massive air bombardment the North signed the peace papers to get us off their back. Of course it was all a farce anyways, but the show of force caused them to rethink their strategy.

I think it is hard to force somebody to become you friend. If you dont believe me, go take a random person off the street and force a friendship on them. If you can do it imagine doing it to somebody who swears hatred to you and has called for your death in public.

Making friends is a perfect in the wold of theory, the world of reality is totally different unfortunately.

 

[Gamer X]

No, Israel had controlled the entire Sinai peninsula for more than 12 years. After the 1973 war Israel had kept Sinai for 6 additional years; Israel didn't give up Sinai as a direct result of the war. It had not been recaptured by Egyptian forces as you try to portray; You are clearly full of Egyptian propaganda crap.

The Egyptian army captured part of Sinai in 1973. The negotiations which was a direct result of the war and the military situation after the cease fire led to Egypt regaining parts of Sinai on diffierent stages until April 1982. Here are photos of the Israeli POWs in 1973 and also Israel receving the bodies of her soldiers through the red cross. You'll find also photos of the war and cease fire negotiations. Please show me photos of Egyptian soldiers captured in 1973.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

What about the Vietnamese, were they different? Or how about the North Koreans and Chinese during the Korean War?

The fact is the US and Israel invited themselves to the region. The best they can do is to make friends, don't you think?

Or would you rather this fighting go on forever?

The difference is NK/China were not fighting for a god.

The Palestinians are only fighting for land.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

It's sad to see how brainwashed some Americans are about these so called "animals" in the Middle East. They are everyday people like you and I, they work and go to school, watch movies, throw parties; they want to enjoy life as much as anyone else. To label the overwhelming majority of civilians as violent animals when they are anything but just shows how 'blinded' and 'brainwashed' you really are.

When is the last time you've visited the Middle East and lived among the civilians there Ronny?

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
The negotiations which was a direct result of the war and the military situation after the cease fire led to Egypt regaining parts of Sinai on diffierent stages until April 1982.

That is the essence of what Egypt had fed you with. Egypt didn't "regain" Sinai back as a result of a so-called "military situation". It had "regained" Sinai because of Israeli withdrawal, which began only in 1979 as a result of the peace talks, which means that during 1973-1979 Sinai was under Israeli control. That withdrawal took place not because Egyptian forces drove the Israelis out of Sinai, as you are trying to protray. Need I remind you that in this war the IDF also conquered some African soil? :evil: