Israeili Soldiers??

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: heresiarh
The Palestinians are under privileged and do not have an organized army. Israeli's have one of the strongest armies in the world supported by the ultimate power in the world. Lets say for eg. if Palestinians organize a proper army, which includeds Jets, Tanks, proper weaponry, uniform etc, I am sure they will fight in a just manner too.

Israel resorted to terrorist methods too before 1949 against the British since the Israeli's had no army. How can an ill equipped nation fight a proper war of freedom or whatever it is?

One thing I fully agree on is suicide bombing has gotten out of hand. But I also understand why they do it. They have lost their families or they don't have anything to live for or they simply want to make a quick buck for their struggling families. They are in a lust for blood and have lost their ways. So therefore, suicide bombing is uncalled for and unIslamic.

A good example of imbalance of power would be, US fighting Mexico. It sounds absurd doesn't it? That is why the Palestinians should get their act together and concentrate on educating their youth for a better future. They should accept their defeat and move on.

You still didn't answer how the Israelis are suppossed to tell the difference. Rationalizing and justifying the Palestenians tactics is something I'm not going to debate, but you haven't addressed directly the question arising from your declaration about Israelis killing civilians. The question asked was "how the Israelis can tell civilian from combatant?" and if anything you seem to be saying they cannot. If I have misinterpreted your post, I appologize, I am looking for clarification of how you can condemn the Israelis for civilian deaths, given the ubiquitous garb of the Palestinian fighters. Thanks for any clarification you can offer on your viewpoint However, my observation at this time would be that you like most people, are simply sympathetic to a particular side in this conflict. Not an accussation, just an observation based on the slant of your previous post.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: heresiarh
The Palestinians are under privileged and do not have an organized army. Israeli's have one of the strongest armies in the world supported by the ultimate power in the world. Lets say for eg. if Palestinians organize a proper army, which includeds Jets, Tanks, proper weaponry, uniform etc, I am sure they will fight in a just manner too.

Huh? Not sure I follow you on this one. Without taking sides here, if the Palestinians had a proper army, wouldn't they still be trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? I guess you're trying to say that they would try to kill Israelis in a civilized, face-to-face manner then?

Israel resorted to terrorist methods too before 1949 against the British since the Israeli's had no army. How can an ill equipped nation fight a proper war of freedom or whatever it is?

One thing I fully agree on is suicide bombing has gotten out of hand. But I also understand why they do it. They have lost their families or they don't have anything to live for or they simply want to make a quick buck for their struggling families (sacrifice their own life). They are in a lust for blood and have lost their ways. So therefore, suicide bombing is uncalled for and unIslamic.

A good example of imbalance of power would be, US fighting Mexico. It sounds absurd doesn't it? That is why the Palestinians should get their act together and concentrate on educating their youth for a better future. They should accept their defeat and move on.

Agreed on this part. But their leadership doesn't want them to focus inwardly. Otherwise, the people would start asking the really tough questions, i.e. "Why hasn't our standard of living improved in all the years that our leadership has been in power?" It's better to focus attention and hatred on Israel, as it takes the heat off the leaders for what hasn't been done for the Palestinian people.

 

[katka]

So the jews were originally from Palestine living in Egypt and then pushed back into Palestine?

No, the land originally belonged to the Phillistine and was called Phillistine, the name was changed to Palestine and thus the Phillistines and the Palnstines are one in the same. According to the bible Abraham (the original jew) got to live in Phillistine/Palastine because of a prayer. There was some type of natural disaster that occurred and the walls of Jehrrico/Jerusulum fell down and killed the majority of Phillistines/Palastinians after which the Jew moved over squatted the land and move in for a while. The Jews scattered for while and then all of a sudden came back to claim it as theirs. But by that time the Paletinians had rebounded in numbers from the disaster. This is why they give Jews free land to move back so they can try to up the numbers. Look for a historical tale of the story of Abraham to get it all, but I broke it down as best I could. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN and am not trying to convert you. The bible does have some historical value. Keep in miind that MANY countries have had their names changed since biblical time, but you should be able to look up the original name to know what it is now. I see no reason for the name changes, except to create confusion if you are using the bible to see how history goes.

Also, I don't dislike Jews. I am just telling the story the way it happened.

PS I know that I have typos and spellos. I can't edit and I not stressing over it. Hopefully you can still get the point.

 

[0roo0roo]

israel did resort to terrorist tactics against the british. but bombing a police head quarters and even giving warning is different then suicide bombing civilians. not to mention the outcry of and questioning of such actions by jews themselves was rather prominant. which rather quickly resulting in the dismanteling of the you have to remember that these were the british who had turned away jewish refugees at the peak of the holocaust.

you have to look at palestinian terror in context. they are people who allied themselves with hitler. the grand mufiti was given the responsibility for his portion of the final solution. not to mention they allied themselves with the losers of ww1 and then the evil empire. they rejected every partition that ever was proposed, even the recent farce of the geneva agreement which no israeli in their right mind would accept. the palestinians have not even been consistent. did they on on terror sprees against the jordianians and egyptians when under occupation by them before 67? no, not even a call for a state at that point. heck they tried to make a state in jordan, and were brutally crushed by the army. thye never changed their maps to show a state existing side by side with israel. how honest is their cause? so only terror against jews apparently. offered freedom and 94% of the westbank by barak, they chose terror again.

 

[katka]

MANY peoples have been against the Jews throughout history. I don't know why?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: katka
MANY peoples have been against the Jews throughout history. I don't know why?

If I interpreted your post in the other thread correctly, you do know why, it's a mindless prejudice exhibited towards a particular ethnicity.

 

[heresiarh]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: heresiarh
The Palestinians are under privileged and do not have an organized army. Israeli's have one of the strongest armies in the world supported by the ultimate power in the world. Lets say for eg. if Palestinians organize a proper army, which includeds Jets, Tanks, proper weaponry, uniform etc, I am sure they will fight in a just manner too.

Israel resorted to terrorist methods too before 1949 against the British since the Israeli's had no army. How can an ill equipped nation fight a proper war of freedom or whatever it is?

One thing I fully agree on is suicide bombing has gotten out of hand. But I also understand why they do it. They have lost their families or they don't have anything to live for or they simply want to make a quick buck for their struggling families. They are in a lust for blood and have lost their ways. So therefore, suicide bombing is uncalled for and unIslamic.

A good example of imbalance of power would be, US fighting Mexico. It sounds absurd doesn't it? That is why the Palestinians should get their act together and concentrate on educating their youth for a better future. They should accept their defeat and move on.

You still didn't answer how the Israelis are suppossed to tell the difference. Rationalizing and justifying the Palestenians tactics is something I'm not going to debate, but you haven't addressed directly the question arising from your declaration about Israelis killing civilians. The question asked was "how the Israelis can tell civilian from combatant?" and if anything you seem to be saying they cannot. If I have misinterpreted your post, I appologize, I am looking for clarification of how you can condemn the Israelis for civilian deaths, given the ubiquitous garb of the Palestinian fighters. Thanks for any clarification you can offer on your viewpoint However, my observation at this time would be that you like most people, are simply sympathetic to a particular side in this conflict. Not an accussation, just an observation based on the slant of your previous post.

That is exactly my point. You asked how will the Israeli's pick out militants from a crowd? Just like I mentioned earlier, the Palestinians have no organized division set aside for war. And since they have been listed as terrorists, I guess they need to stay underground to fight their kind of war. By the way, how far back did suicide bombings start?

I am not leaning more towards one side. I am just talking about some stuff that I ponder upon. I completely condemn suicide bombings and any method attached to it. Killing of innocent women and children is uncalled for. The killing of 3 young girls and a pregnant mother was outrageous. There is nowhere in Islam to perform such acts.

 

[heresiarh]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
israel did resort to terrorist tactics against the british. but bombing a police head quarters and even giving warning is different then suicide bombing civilians. not to mention the outcry of and questioning of such actions by jews themselves was rather prominant. which rather quickly resulting in the dismanteling of the you have to remember that these were the british who had turned away jewish refugees at the peak of the holocaust.

you have to look at palestinian terror in context. they are people who allied themselves with hitler. the grand mufiti was given the responsibility for his portion of the final solution. not to mention they allied themselves with the losers of ww1 and then the evil empire. they rejected every partition that ever was proposed, even the recent farce of the geneva agreement which no israeli in their right mind would accept. the palestinians have not even been consistent. did they on on terror sprees against the jordianians and egyptians when under occupation by them before 67? no, not even a call for a state at that point. heck they tried to make a state in jordan, and were brutally crushed by the army. thye never changed their maps to show a state existing side by side with israel. how honest is their cause? so only terror against jews apparently. offered freedom and 94% of the westbank by barak, they chose terror again.

Yes I do agree the Arabs have to get their act together. They seem to be running things in different directions.

 

[heresiarh]

Huh? Not sure I follow you on this one. Without taking sides here, if the Palestinians had a proper army, wouldn't they still be trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? I guess you're trying to say that they would try to kill Israelis in a civilized, face-to-face manner then?

Yes, they would be fighting in a face to face manner.

 

[0roo0roo]

well there were always jews to be killed, but not by suicide bombing at the beginning. before there was an israel, i twas just mobs killing jews. which led to organization of the jews for self protection which eventually led to the forces that fought at liberation. oops after that i think they started off with hijacking airlines. well atleast the first major and different acts besides normal attacks. then the kiling of israeli athletes at the olympics in munich http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/OneDayinSeptember-1102530/reviews.php then hijacking an ocean liner.. killing a jewish american in wheel chair.. think they tossed him overboard or something.

 

[katka]

If I interpreted your post in the other thread correctly, you do know why, it's a mindless prejudice exhibited towards a particular ethnicity.

Well, I certainly won't jump to that conclusion. They are specific people that I won't deal with because of the nature of the beasts. But I don't go around trying to turn the world against them either. The hate for Jews has occurred throught antiquity and has spanned over many other races. It could have been some trait that I have no knowledge of since I don't share that hatred. Because I don't know why, and don't share the view doesn't mean there is not a reason.

 

[heresiarh]

Now to make a clear point, here is my take on Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolution:

For Israel: They should withdraw from all areas occupied after the '67 war.

For Palestine: They should get their act together and just accept the defeat. Concentrate more on their youth and educate them for a better, healthy future and a stable nation. The Arab leaders need to put their heads together and set aside their differences. The major problem among Arab nations is that every country is run by a different sect. For eg, Saudi Arabia is controlled by the Wahabis, Jordan is controlled by the Hashmites, Iran, a non-arab nation but still contributing to Hamas and Hezbollah is governed by an extreme sect of Shia. Islam is not just divided by Sunni and Shia, it is divided by 30-45 different sects. Therefore, the differences between all Islamic countries.

A good example for Palestine would be: Look at the Cyprus takeover by the Turks in 1973. The Greek-Cyprus side could have revolted and resorted to terrorists methods but instead they stuck together, accepted defeat and worked towards a better nation. Now they have an excellent economy with almost everyone well off.

 

[0roo0roo]

That is exactly my point. You asked how will the Israeli's pick out militants from a crowd? Just like I mentioned earlier, the Palestinians have no organized division set aside for war. And since they have been listed as terrorists, I guess they need to stay underground to fight their kind of war. By the way, how far back did suicide bombings start?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/incidents.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/tergraph.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/tergraph1.html

 

[katka]

There are still biblical artifacts that are burried in that area so I don't think that a solution is likely to be that simple. If I am not mistaken there are still tons of gold that belonged to king david burried somewhere over there. I guess whoever is on that part of the land gets the good, I guess, as this is why finding a happy medium won't be such an easy task.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: katka

If I interpreted your post in the other thread correctly, you do know why, it's a mindless prejudice exhibited towards a particular ethnicity.

Well, I certainly won't jump to that conclusion. They are specific people that I won't deal with because of the nature of the beasts. But I don't go around trying to turn the world against them either. The hate for Jews has occurred throught antiquity and has spanned over many other races. It could have been some trait that I have no knowledge of since I don't share that hatred. Because I don't know why, and don't share the view doesn't mean there is not a reason.

Thank you for explaining your perspective and that you abstain from judgement :beer: For myself, I can concieve of no "trait" genetic or otherwise that justifies hatred and persecution of a group! the Hebrews, native Americans, and Africans have suffered greatly in the past for others lack of tolerance and humanity towards them. You made an analogy that stated that a jew going to an Arab country was like a African going to a KKK rally. The KKK is well known for their illogical hatred of ethnic groups due to a mistaken belief in caucasian superiority. The grim irony is most of them are no more homogenous a ethnicity than the recipients of their hatred are. In fact, they are far less so. They are a mix of many nationalities, only their caucasian appearance do they share, so they hate their own genetic forebearers is the twisted truth. It would seem the universe has sardonic sense of humor afterall. By comparing the 2 situations as you did you are either grouping the Arabs with the KKK, or just do not understand what the KKK is all about

 

[katka]

Well your point is well taken, and it was my understanding that the Arabs hated the Jews, just as the KKK hates the Blacks. I have heard that Arabs hated Whites just ast some KKK hate Jews. The first were used as a example because I think that it is the most prevalent hate relationship realized.

Hate comes from two origins IMHO. People Hate people that ACTUALLY do bad things to them, or people can hate as a form as Mass Hysteria. I am a person who hates from actual experience but cause I am not influence by the emotions of others.

But MOST people actually do hate because of teachings (being told) which may be overt or covert. That is why I LOVE to read this form. Most people have no solid reasons for feeling oneway or another. They just repeat what someone else said who didn't have a clue in the first place. I watched 20/20 when the war first started and they literally called some high school protesters "clueless and idiotic" because the didn't realize that the Bin Ladin had NOTHING to do with Saddam. If the President doesn't know this then why should the kids??? After reading I realized the most people don't know. They just jump on the bandwaggon (Mass Hysteria) and don't think for themselves.

While nothing is absolute there are traits that can be inherited. "shyness" is one such trait. While there are shy people of every race there is A race that has more shy people than any other. I don't know which one is the current leader, just an example.

So this is why I said I didn't know. I could be:

1) Hate from experience.
2) Hate because someone told you or showed you even without trying .
3) A trait that is noticable, and offensive to one group about another.


I do have hates and I assure you that they come from number 1 and they are definitely NOT against Jews, or Arabs or any other political nonsense.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: katka
Well your point is well taken, and it was my understanding that the Arabs hated the Jews, just as the KKK hates the Blacks. I have heard that Arabs hated Whites just ast some KKK hate Jews. The first were used as a example because I think that it is the most prevalent hate relationship realized.

Hate comes from two origins IMHO. People Hate people that ACTUALLY do bad things to them, or people can hate as a form as Mass Hysteria. I am a person who hates from actual experience but cause I am not influence by the emotions of others.

But MOST people actually do hate because of teachings (being told) which may be overt or covert. That is why I LOVE to read this form. Most people have no solid reasons for feeling oneway or another. They just repeat what someone else said who didn't have a clue in the first place. I watched 20/20 when the war first started and they literally called some high school protesters "clueless and idiotic" because the didn't realize that the Bin Ladin had NOTHING to do with Saddam. If the President doesn't know this then why should the kids??? After reading I realized the most people don't know. They just jump on the bandwaggon (Mass Hysteria) and don't think for themselves.

While nothing is absolute there are traits that can be inherited. "shyness" is one such trait. While there are shy people of every race there is A race that has more shy people than any other. I don't know which one is the current leader, just an example.

So this is why I said I didn't know. I could be:

1) Hate from experience.
2) Hate because someone told you or showed you even without trying .
3) A trait that is noticable, and offensive to one group about another.


I do have hates and I assure you that they come from number 1 and they are definitely NOT against Jews, or Arabs or any other political nonsense.

A pleasure exchanging viewpoints with you! :beer: I hate no one, I hate nothing! I've been given cause to in my life's experience to be sure, but I am unwilling to pay the wages it requires to participate As to the theory that there are inherited traits, such as "shyness" I find that unconvincing. I intend no disrespect, I am just being forthright in my opinions with you I believe it's enviromental conditioning that manifests in such a way, not genetic patterns. In the final analysis, at least for myself, I will continue to form my own thoughts and feelings on what transpires during the course of this finite existance, and act and react according to my values and system of beliefs. I respect your right to do the same, and revel in our diversity as a species AKA Homo Sapiens, technically Homo Sapiens Sapiens 200,000 yrs ago till present.

 

[Czar]

katka,
you should start posting more often then maybe intelectual and interesting discussions can come back