Isn't HHO clearly snake oil?

[Throckmorton]

HHO involves using electrolysis to separate water into H and O atoms, and pump them into your intake to "improve combustion".

Dear winkosmosis,

You have received an infraction at JeepForum.com.

Reason: Trolling in a technical post.
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Original Post:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5366962

Quote:
How is this thread still going? This is clearly snake oil.

All the best,
JeepForum.com

How can you have something useful to add to a discussion on snake oil besides "This is snake oil"?? And why would a technical forum, full of gear heads who should know better, have a thread on that topic full of positive attitudes and people posting BS about how they actually get better gas mileage?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Yeah, it's been proved to be BS by virtually everyone.

 

[Throckmorton]

Then I don't understand why it's so popular over there, and why one of the MODERATORS, the one who gave me the infraction, is doing the project. Do they just lack common sense? Come on!

 

[Throckmorton]

I made another post in another thread, and the same mod with the snake oil project deleted it!

Slithering_JoeThat's not the argument these guys (not me) are trying to make. The theory behind all of this is that maybe the introduction of HHO may contribute to a more efficient burn of gasoline + HHO + atmosphere. Similar in the way that platinum is a cataylst in the oxidation in HC's in a catalytic converter.

How on earth would "HHO" result in more efficient burn? What is the mechanism for that?
The H and O atoms should simply recombine to form water, releasing some heat, which will be less than the energy used to create the gas in the first place.

What's more, the burn of fuel/air in an engine is already almost completely efficient. You aren't going to get any more gasoline burned unless you lean out the mixture, which you can't do. So what is the improvement that HHO purportedly provides? Getting more energy out of the same volume of fuel and air burning?

It doesn't take that much understanding of chemistry, or even that much searching on the internet, to realize that this is nonsense which has been debunked.

He replaced the post with "Stop trolling"

SirGCal, I posted my opinion on this, with the scientific reasoning why I believe it to be snake oil. I explained the chemistry and the way an engine mixes fuel/air BECAUSE you gave me infractions for just saying "this is snake oil" in the other thread, which I thought was because I didn't explain my position. There are several other posts like mine in this thread, so why was mine deleted?



You said to debunk it, so how about this? A thread with a lot of detailed discussion of the actual science.

http://www.instructables.com/c...ilding-HHO-generators/

This is really annoying me that first of all a community like that would be so receptive to a sham, and that a mod would suppress my posts just because HHO is his pet project and he *wants to believe*. I've been on AT for a long time and never seen a mod here do something like that.

 

[HannibalX]

There is a HUGE thread about this over on Explorerforum.Com with several chemical engineers taking part. The conclusion over there seems to be that the idea is sound, but that it would take about five small generators to make any difference at all.

Edit: Thread

 

[franksta]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

How can you have something useful to add to a discussion on snake oil besides "This is snake oil"?? And why would a technical forum, full of gear heads who should know better, have a thread on that topic full of positive attitudes and people posting BS about how they actually get better gas mileage?

I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Yeah, it's been proved to be BS by virtually everyone.

Not really...it has it's uses. However, unless one is backing any statement with proof for or against it's just hearsay and part of the problem.

I ran it through a car and my oil consumption problem improved. It was more than likely due to a stuck oil ring.

I expect many here to make up all sorts of shit about it.

*edit* I read the post as MMO.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't understand how it can provide any benefits of leaning the mixture, without any of the downsides of leaning like higher temp.

 

[franksta]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
I don't understand how it can provide any benefits of leaning the mixture, without any of the downsides of leaning like higher temp.

I'll admit I don't know anything about the theory of operation.

Perhaps they're using the hydrogen in addition to gasoline. Are both the hydrogen and oxygen introduced into the intake? Upstream or down of the mass air flow sensor? Maybe the oxygen and hydrogen recombine into water in the intake before they even make it to the cylinders. :laugh:

 

[Pacfanweb]

This topic has been discussed in the CJ forum there several times. That guy with the TJ who is claiming 29mpg is simply a liar. There's no way you can collect enough hydrogen in a mason-sized jar to make any difference at all.

This "technology" has been around for years, and never has caught on....wonder why?

 

[Toastedlightly]

I still laugh at HHO. Either a) it is water vapor or b) it is H(2) and O(2) gasses. As the two most stable forms of hydrogen and oxygen, it is the majority of what the process will produce.

 

[halik]

So you're using an alternator powered by your engine to reduce H20 and pump it back to the engine with a net gain. Someone flunked highschool physics.

Common freaking sense tells me that since you're not introducing energy into the system, it will be a net loss... otherwise you've made a perpetum mobile (more power from engine -> more voltage -> more HHO -> more power from engine ...)

 

[nismotigerwvu]

It seems as though they feel the laws of thermodynamics no longer apply in a Jeep. Hydrogen gas mixed with Oxygen gas will react spontaneously to produce water (vapor at higher temps). I don't know the deltaG's for this offhand but it would be a staggeringly high number (in terms of the difference in energy levels as separate gasses versus water) so it would be a nearly instantaneous reaction. Not to mention the load you would place on the alternator to make even the tiniest amount of free Hydrogen gas would GREATLY outweigh any benefits. What are they trying to do anyway? Run lean and predetonate? Anyone who claimed to be a chemical engineer and state this as a sound concept is a flat out liar. Also, I'm not sure about other universities, but here chem eng's are just the kids who failed out of a normal chem major anyways. Anyways, I more than likely should mention that I'm working on a Ph.D in Biochemistry and my undergraduate degree was chemistry emphasized biochemistry. Not exactly my field but close enough (and simple enough) that I feel it is worth commenting on.

 

[StageLeft]

Those people are fugging tards. I would never visit that forum again. Let them waste their money.

I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

That's like taking issue with me saying that sh*ting in your gas tank won't help and not expounding on it. People who'd even entertain the idea of this working are idiots. They don't deserve to have things explained to them.

 

[Bignate603]

There's a reason why I don't post over at Jeepforums anymore.

 

[Fenixgoon]

there are three forms of HHO - water, ice, and vapor, same damn thing as H2O. anyone who tells you otherwise is pumping full of shit.


the only thing you'll get from electrolysis is H2 and O2.

 

[Skunkwourk]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Those people are fugging tards. I would never visit that forum again. Let them waste their money.

I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

That's like taking issue with me saying that sh*ting in your gas tank won't help and not expounding on it. People who'd even entertain the idea of this working are idiots. They don't deserve to have things explained to them.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, care to explain

Originally posted by: franksta
I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

I agree with this, if the discussion is going to be meaningful at all, you should attempt to back it up and encourage more discussion, not simply end it. Its akin to saying "god exists", or "your religion is a sham", without trying to at least prove your point, not matter how obvious it may seem to you.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: m0mentary

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Those people are fugging tards. I would never visit that forum again. Let them waste their money.

I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

That's like taking issue with me saying that sh*ting in your gas tank won't help and not expounding on it. People who'd even entertain the idea of this working are idiots. They don't deserve to have things explained to them.

i don't know what you guys are talking about, care to explain

Originally posted by: franksta
I think you could have explained further why it's snake oil and been OK. You essentially just said "It's all a lie" and that was it, not very helpful.

I agree with this, if the discussion is going to be meaningful at all, you should attempt to back it up and encourage more discussion, not end it.

Ok, here's a few reasons why this won't work...

1. Any additional energy you get from burning the hydrogen is negated because it took MORE energy to create that hydrogen. It would violate the laws of thermodynamics otherwise.
2. If it were possible, don't you think car companies would have used this before? This same idea has been floating around for decades. Check out Brown's gas on google. Same thing, and if it was as great as it supposedly was you'd see it around more than you do. It WAS used in some applications for welding and lighting but in general it has been replaced by better alternatives.
3. If they really think having extra hydrogen and oxygen help the combustion process, what the heck do they think is floating around in the cylinder when they burn gas? You'll get oxygen and hydrogen floating around, as single atoms. Tossing in some extra ones will not change things.

People are wishing that there is some cheap easy fix to high gas bills. People have tried for close to a century and haven't. The auto industry isn't in a conspiracy with the oil industry, if a car company could make a 25-50% increase in fuel economy they'd sell more than they could make. Look at how well the Prius is selling right now, dealers are marking them up like crazy.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Where is the EPA website that lists all the snake oil products that they've tested & proven BS? It might be on there, that would shut that moron up.

 

[lghost]

http://www.mythbusters.com/the...e-waterfueled-car.html