Islamic **radical** terrorists strike Russia again

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
So a while back these holy warriors killed hundreds of school children in Russia. Before that they killed countless people in that theatre in Mosow.

Now they're at it again. Russia is our enemy, but in terms of fighting Islamic terrorists, we have to back them in their fight against these people. I know what Russia has done in Chechnya is wrong, but this is not about that. Its a part of the global war between the believers and the non-believers.


At Least 85 Killed in Attacks in Russia



By FATIMA TLISOVA, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago

NALCHIK, Russia - Militants attacked police and government buildings in Russia's volatile Caucasus region Thursday, taking hostages and turning a provincial capital into a war zone wracked by gunfire and explosions that left at least 85 people dead, mostly insurgents.

Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for the offensive in Nalchik, the capital of the mostly Muslim republic of Kabardino-Balkariya, as a new front opened in the Kremlin's decade-old battle against Islamic insurgents.

The rebels' struggle against Russia, originally a separatist movement, increasingly has melded with Islamic extremism in the past decade and fanned out beyond
Chechnya's borders to encompass the entire Caucusus region.

The insurgent strategy of simultaneous attacks on facilities in Nalchik, a city of 235,000, was similar to a rebel siege last year in another Caucasus republic, Ingushetia, in what appears to be an attempt to target areas outside Chechnya and keep Moscow off-balance.

Kabardino-Balkariya is the fifth of seven republics in the mountainous region to be hit by the spillover of violence from the struggle in Chechnya. The insurgents are trying to exploit tensions among a variety of ethnic groups in the impoverished region as well as native Muslims and the ethnic Russians, who are Christian.

President Vladimir Putin, beleaguered by attacks that have killed hundreds of civilians and underscored his failure to bring the southern area under control, ordered a total blockade of Nalchik to prevent militants from slipping out. He told security forces to shoot any armed resisters.

Thursday's fighting began about 8:30 a.m. Thursday after police launched an operation to capture about 10 militants in a Nalchik suburb. All 10 suspected militants were killed, Russian Deputy Interior Minister Alexander Chekalin said.

Interfax cited an unidentified law enforcement official as saying fighting was sparked by an attempt by militants to free a group of detained adherents to the radical Wahhabi sect of Islam.

Gunmen staged simultaneous attacks against three police stations, the city's airport and the regional headquarters of the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service in what appeared what appeared to be an effort to divert police.

The attack at the airport was repelled, the facility was placed under military control and all flights were canceled, news reports said.

The militants also attacked the regional headquarters of the Russian prison system, the Emergency Situation Ministry's press office said. Interfax said a border guards' office also came under attack.

A teacher from School No. 5, who gave only his first name, Spartak, said children had been evacuated from the building, near a police station and an anti-terrorism office at the center of the attacks. Black smoke billowed from the building as panic-stricken parents searched for their children in the school yard.

Cars were overturned or gutted by gunfire, and Russian television footage showed the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be attackers in the streets.

The heavy fighting quieted down after about six hours, though sporadic gunfire continued and officials said militants were holding several hostages at a police station ? and released captives said others were being held at a building housing a souvenir shop.

Deputy Interior Minister Andrei Novikov said late Thursday that 61 militants were killed, some from Kabardino-Balkariya and some from other republics in the Russian Caucasus. Russian and regional officials said 12 civilians and 12 police officers were killed.

Russian news agencies, citing figures from Russia's Center for Catastrophic Medicine, reported that 13 people were killed and 116 others were hospitalized, but it was unclear whether those figures referred only to civilians.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300, and the Interfax news agency quoted an aide to the president of Kabardino-Balkariya as saying late Thursday that 17 had been detained.

The region has suffered a growing wave of violence as Islamic extremism is spreading despite the government's harsh anti-terrorist methods, from targeted killings of rebel leaders such as Aslan Maskhadov to paying rewards for information to the demolition of houses where suspected rebels have found refuge.

Police and security forces have fought pitched battles with militants across the region, and the rebels have employed terrorist methods including suicide bombings and the seizure of more than 1,000 hostages last year in a school in the town of Beslan, 60 miles southeast of Nalchik.

The Kavkaz-Center Web site, seen as a voice for rebels loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, said it had received a short message claiming responsibility for Thursday's attack on behalf of the Caucasus Front. It said the group is part of the Chechen rebel armed forces and includes Yarmuk, an alleged militant Islamic group based in Kabardino-Balkariya.

Deputy Prosecutor General Vladimir Kolesnikov said suspects detained during Thursday's fighting said the offensive was carried out under orders from two wanted militants ? including an active supporter of Basayev.

But armed forces chief of staff Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky said he had no evidence Basayev was involved in the attack. Russian officials also said no evidence supported speculation Basayev had been killed.

As darkness fell, Chekalin said militants holed up in two offices at a police station were holding hostages and battling security forces. Regional President Arsen Kanokov said five or six militants held five hostages at the police station, Interfax reported. Shots rang out late into the night while armored personnel carriers drew close to the station.

At a building housing a souvenir shop, wounded militants released three hostages in exchange for water, but one of those freed said the attackers were still holding three captives.

At an emergency meeting early Friday, Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliyev ordered police to step up efforts to neutralize the remaining pockets of resistance in the police station and souvenir shop, Russian news agencies reported. They have been asked to surrender.

"They have been given some time to think, but it's understood that nobody is going to wait endlessly for their decision," ITAR-Tass and Interfax quoted Nurgaliyev as saying.

___

Associated Press writer Sergei Venyavsky contributed to this report from Rostov-on-Don, Russia.

news link
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
In case you missed it, Putin is pi$$ed at Bush for calling those "holy warriors" who killed all those children in Beslan "rebels" instead of terrorists.

*edit*

As a matter of fact, Bush actually allows a couple of the leaders of these terrorists to reside in the USA.

Bush is harboring terrorists. We need regime change.

 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Russia is our enemy

Not for over a decade. We are going to continue to cozy up nice and close with them to provide stability for Europe and as way to control the growth of China...

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Don't care what Bush said.

Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

When it's your forum you can tell me where and when to post. Until then I'll keep exposing the fraud you people keep supporting.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: BBond
As a matter of fact, Bush actually allows a couple of the leaders of these terrorists to reside in the USA. Bush is harboring terrorists. We need regime change.

Link?

 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Originally posted by: bsobel
Russia is our enemy

Not for over a decade. We are going to continue to cozy up nice and close with them to provide stability for Europe and as way to control the growth of China...

They are our enemy in the sense that China is our enemy. We distrust them, they distrust us. The Cold War may be over, but relations aren't as warm as you'd think they are. They are partnering with China, militarily and financially. They see China as much as a market as we do.

The latest anti-tank missiles which pierced through the M1A2 Abrams tanks in Iraq were made in what country? Russia.

Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: raildogg
Don't care what Bush said.

Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

When it's your forum you can tell me where and when to post. Until then I'll keep exposing the fraud you people keep supporting.

Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: raildogg
Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

Why? If our government is harboring leaders of these terrorists, is that not at least somewhat relevent to the topic? Limit the scope, limit the findings?

 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

Why? If our government is harboring leaders of these terrorists, is that not at least somewhat relevent to the topic? Limit the scope, limit the findings?

Post them in a thread about terrorism in Russia? HMMMM

Start your own thread or post in the other countless Bush hating threads!
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

Why? If our government is harboring leaders of these terrorists, is that not at least somewhat relevent to the topic? Limit the scope, limit the findings?

Post them in a thread about terrorism in Russia? HMMMM

Start your own thread or post in the other countless Bush hating threads!

Why does this have to be about Bush? Did these leaders come to the USA during Bush's administration?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

Why? If our government is harboring leaders of these terrorists, is that not at least somewhat relevent to the topic? Limit the scope, limit the findings?

Post them in a thread about terrorism in Russia? HMMMM

Start your own thread or post in the other countless Bush hating threads!

Why does this have to be about Bush? Did these leaders come to the USA during Bush's administration?

Clinton allowed countless terrorists to reside in America. Was he harboring terrorists?

Did Clinton knowingly harbor them?

Did Bush knowingly harbor them?

Back on topic please.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: raildogg
Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

Why? If our government is harboring leaders of these terrorists, is that not at least somewhat relevent to the topic? Limit the scope, limit the findings?

Post them in a thread about terrorism in Russia? HMMMM

Start your own thread or post in the other countless Bush hating threads!

Why does this have to be about Bush? Did these leaders come to the USA during Bush's administration?

Clinton allowed countless terrorists to reside in America. Was he harboring terrorists?

Did Clinton knowingly harbor them?

Did Bush knowingly harbor them?

Back on topic please.

That's my point. I don't know why BBOND singled out Bush. See?

This is on topic.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
So a while back these holy warriors killed hundreds of school children in Russia. Before that they killed countless people in that theatre in Mosow.

Now they're at it again. Russia is our enemy, but in terms of fighting Islamic terrorists, we have to back them in their fight against these people. I know what Russia has done in Chechnya is wrong, but this is not about that. Its a part of the global war between the believers and the non-believers.


At Least 85 Killed in Attacks in Russia



By FATIMA TLISOVA, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago

NALCHIK, Russia - Militants attacked police and government buildings in Russia's volatile Caucasus region Thursday, taking hostages and turning a provincial capital into a war zone wracked by gunfire and explosions that left at least 85 people dead, mostly insurgents.

Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for the offensive in Nalchik, the capital of the mostly Muslim republic of Kabardino-Balkariya, as a new front opened in the Kremlin's decade-old battle against Islamic insurgents.

The rebels' struggle against Russia, originally a separatist movement, increasingly has melded with Islamic extremism in the past decade and fanned out beyond
Chechnya's borders to encompass the entire Caucusus region.

The insurgent strategy of simultaneous attacks on facilities in Nalchik, a city of 235,000, was similar to a rebel siege last year in another Caucasus republic, Ingushetia, in what appears to be an attempt to target areas outside Chechnya and keep Moscow off-balance.

Kabardino-Balkariya is the fifth of seven republics in the mountainous region to be hit by the spillover of violence from the struggle in Chechnya. The insurgents are trying to exploit tensions among a variety of ethnic groups in the impoverished region as well as native Muslims and the ethnic Russians, who are Christian.

President Vladimir Putin, beleaguered by attacks that have killed hundreds of civilians and underscored his failure to bring the southern area under control, ordered a total blockade of Nalchik to prevent militants from slipping out. He told security forces to shoot any armed resisters.

Thursday's fighting began about 8:30 a.m. Thursday after police launched an operation to capture about 10 militants in a Nalchik suburb. All 10 suspected militants were killed, Russian Deputy Interior Minister Alexander Chekalin said.

Interfax cited an unidentified law enforcement official as saying fighting was sparked by an attempt by militants to free a group of detained adherents to the radical Wahhabi sect of Islam.

Gunmen staged simultaneous attacks against three police stations, the city's airport and the regional headquarters of the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service in what appeared what appeared to be an effort to divert police.

The attack at the airport was repelled, the facility was placed under military control and all flights were canceled, news reports said.

The militants also attacked the regional headquarters of the Russian prison system, the Emergency Situation Ministry's press office said. Interfax said a border guards' office also came under attack.

A teacher from School No. 5, who gave only his first name, Spartak, said children had been evacuated from the building, near a police station and an anti-terrorism office at the center of the attacks. Black smoke billowed from the building as panic-stricken parents searched for their children in the school yard.

Cars were overturned or gutted by gunfire, and Russian television footage showed the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be attackers in the streets.

The heavy fighting quieted down after about six hours, though sporadic gunfire continued and officials said militants were holding several hostages at a police station ? and released captives said others were being held at a building housing a souvenir shop.

Deputy Interior Minister Andrei Novikov said late Thursday that 61 militants were killed, some from Kabardino-Balkariya and some from other republics in the Russian Caucasus. Russian and regional officials said 12 civilians and 12 police officers were killed.

Russian news agencies, citing figures from Russia's Center for Catastrophic Medicine, reported that 13 people were killed and 116 others were hospitalized, but it was unclear whether those figures referred only to civilians.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300, and the Interfax news agency quoted an aide to the president of Kabardino-Balkariya as saying late Thursday that 17 had been detained.

The region has suffered a growing wave of violence as Islamic extremism is spreading despite the government's harsh anti-terrorist methods, from targeted killings of rebel leaders such as Aslan Maskhadov to paying rewards for information to the demolition of houses where suspected rebels have found refuge.

Police and security forces have fought pitched battles with militants across the region, and the rebels have employed terrorist methods including suicide bombings and the seizure of more than 1,000 hostages last year in a school in the town of Beslan, 60 miles southeast of Nalchik.

The Kavkaz-Center Web site, seen as a voice for rebels loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, said it had received a short message claiming responsibility for Thursday's attack on behalf of the Caucasus Front. It said the group is part of the Chechen rebel armed forces and includes Yarmuk, an alleged militant Islamic group based in Kabardino-Balkariya.

Deputy Prosecutor General Vladimir Kolesnikov said suspects detained during Thursday's fighting said the offensive was carried out under orders from two wanted militants ? including an active supporter of Basayev.

But armed forces chief of staff Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky said he had no evidence Basayev was involved in the attack. Russian officials also said no evidence supported speculation Basayev had been killed.

As darkness fell, Chekalin said militants holed up in two offices at a police station were holding hostages and battling security forces. Regional President Arsen Kanokov said five or six militants held five hostages at the police station, Interfax reported. Shots rang out late into the night while armored personnel carriers drew close to the station.

At a building housing a souvenir shop, wounded militants released three hostages in exchange for water, but one of those freed said the attackers were still holding three captives.

At an emergency meeting early Friday, Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliyev ordered police to step up efforts to neutralize the remaining pockets of resistance in the police station and souvenir shop, Russian news agencies reported. They have been asked to surrender.

"They have been given some time to think, but it's understood that nobody is going to wait endlessly for their decision," ITAR-Tass and Interfax quoted Nurgaliyev as saying.

___

Associated Press writer Sergei Venyavsky contributed to this report from Rostov-on-Don, Russia.

news link



Hum... how is it that you chose the only press agency characterizing the kidnappers as muslims instead of chechen?

You know, considering the situation in Chechenia I would say this is not a small point in the story...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4340596.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/14/international/europe/14russia.html?oref=login
http://www.afp.fr/english/news/stories/051014045756.l3m1j5x9.html
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic...B322213_RTRUKOC_0_US-RUSSIA-ATTACK.xml
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/depeches/0,14-0,39-25870316@7-37,0.html
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Esteri/2005/10_Ottobre/14/russia.shtml

I mean... they are kidnappers and killers and must be stopped... but framing this as a religion war is simply uncorrect.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
War is ugly eh?

Where are the headlines when Chechens are bombed into dust? When families are buried from shelling? It's only the reverse, when the oppressed fight back, that we get headlines.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
War is ugly eh?

Where are the headlines when Chechens are bombed into dust? When families are buried from shelling? It's only the reverse, when the oppressed fight back, that we get headlines.


Well, actually you had journalists winning every kind of prizes in the '90s, including a Pulitzer, with pictures from Chechenya. At that time they (rebels) were heroes. I remember a journalist from Reuters I met at that time in Paris, describing how the rebels were hidden under Grozny, only coming out at night and ambushing russians' tanks. The fact that most of them were muslims wasn't even mentioned, and most westerns considered, if not heroic, at least cool. Guerrilla fighters are always somewhat romantic figures. We forget fast. Go look the pictures of Grozny at that time. The russians bombed the city untill everything was mud-brown. I mean everything. Not a building standing. The pictures had an almost abstract monocromatic look, because everything was just brown and covered with sand...

Anyway, that's true: framing these only as muslims is plain wrong. War and occupation of Chechenya is the cause of this terrorism.

However, my simpathy for their cause ends immediately when they start committing terror attacks against civilians. Period. I think they had every right to fight the russians invading Chechenya, considering the self-determination of people declaration. Everybody complained about Serbia's occupation of Bosnia, nobody did the same about Russia in Chechenya. Still, shey have no right to fight back now with terror attacks targeting civilians. This is just plain criminal.


 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: raildogg
So a while back these holy warriors killed hundreds of school children in Russia. Before that they killed countless people in that theatre in Mosow.

Now they're at it again. Russia is our enemy, but in terms of fighting Islamic terrorists, we have to back them in their fight against these people. I know what Russia has done in Chechnya is wrong, but this is not about that. Its a part of the global war between the believers and the non-believers.


At Least 85 Killed in Attacks in Russia



By FATIMA TLISOVA, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago

NALCHIK, Russia - Militants attacked police and government buildings in Russia's volatile Caucasus region Thursday, taking hostages and turning a provincial capital into a war zone wracked by gunfire and explosions that left at least 85 people dead, mostly insurgents.

Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for the offensive in Nalchik, the capital of the mostly Muslim republic of Kabardino-Balkariya, as a new front opened in the Kremlin's decade-old battle against Islamic insurgents.

The rebels' struggle against Russia, originally a separatist movement, increasingly has melded with Islamic extremism in the past decade and fanned out beyond
Chechnya's borders to encompass the entire Caucusus region.

The insurgent strategy of simultaneous attacks on facilities in Nalchik, a city of 235,000, was similar to a rebel siege last year in another Caucasus republic, Ingushetia, in what appears to be an attempt to target areas outside Chechnya and keep Moscow off-balance.

Kabardino-Balkariya is the fifth of seven republics in the mountainous region to be hit by the spillover of violence from the struggle in Chechnya. The insurgents are trying to exploit tensions among a variety of ethnic groups in the impoverished region as well as native Muslims and the ethnic Russians, who are Christian.

President Vladimir Putin, beleaguered by attacks that have killed hundreds of civilians and underscored his failure to bring the southern area under control, ordered a total blockade of Nalchik to prevent militants from slipping out. He told security forces to shoot any armed resisters.

Thursday's fighting began about 8:30 a.m. Thursday after police launched an operation to capture about 10 militants in a Nalchik suburb. All 10 suspected militants were killed, Russian Deputy Interior Minister Alexander Chekalin said.

Interfax cited an unidentified law enforcement official as saying fighting was sparked by an attempt by militants to free a group of detained adherents to the radical Wahhabi sect of Islam.

Gunmen staged simultaneous attacks against three police stations, the city's airport and the regional headquarters of the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service in what appeared what appeared to be an effort to divert police.

The attack at the airport was repelled, the facility was placed under military control and all flights were canceled, news reports said.

The militants also attacked the regional headquarters of the Russian prison system, the Emergency Situation Ministry's press office said. Interfax said a border guards' office also came under attack.

A teacher from School No. 5, who gave only his first name, Spartak, said children had been evacuated from the building, near a police station and an anti-terrorism office at the center of the attacks. Black smoke billowed from the building as panic-stricken parents searched for their children in the school yard.

Cars were overturned or gutted by gunfire, and Russian television footage showed the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be attackers in the streets.

The heavy fighting quieted down after about six hours, though sporadic gunfire continued and officials said militants were holding several hostages at a police station ? and released captives said others were being held at a building housing a souvenir shop.

Deputy Interior Minister Andrei Novikov said late Thursday that 61 militants were killed, some from Kabardino-Balkariya and some from other republics in the Russian Caucasus. Russian and regional officials said 12 civilians and 12 police officers were killed.

Russian news agencies, citing figures from Russia's Center for Catastrophic Medicine, reported that 13 people were killed and 116 others were hospitalized, but it was unclear whether those figures referred only to civilians.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300, and the Interfax news agency quoted an aide to the president of Kabardino-Balkariya as saying late Thursday that 17 had been detained.

The region has suffered a growing wave of violence as Islamic extremism is spreading despite the government's harsh anti-terrorist methods, from targeted killings of rebel leaders such as Aslan Maskhadov to paying rewards for information to the demolition of houses where suspected rebels have found refuge.

Police and security forces have fought pitched battles with militants across the region, and the rebels have employed terrorist methods including suicide bombings and the seizure of more than 1,000 hostages last year in a school in the town of Beslan, 60 miles southeast of Nalchik.

The Kavkaz-Center Web site, seen as a voice for rebels loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, said it had received a short message claiming responsibility for Thursday's attack on behalf of the Caucasus Front. It said the group is part of the Chechen rebel armed forces and includes Yarmuk, an alleged militant Islamic group based in Kabardino-Balkariya.

Deputy Prosecutor General Vladimir Kolesnikov said suspects detained during Thursday's fighting said the offensive was carried out under orders from two wanted militants ? including an active supporter of Basayev.

But armed forces chief of staff Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky said he had no evidence Basayev was involved in the attack. Russian officials also said no evidence supported speculation Basayev had been killed.

As darkness fell, Chekalin said militants holed up in two offices at a police station were holding hostages and battling security forces. Regional President Arsen Kanokov said five or six militants held five hostages at the police station, Interfax reported. Shots rang out late into the night while armored personnel carriers drew close to the station.

At a building housing a souvenir shop, wounded militants released three hostages in exchange for water, but one of those freed said the attackers were still holding three captives.

At an emergency meeting early Friday, Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliyev ordered police to step up efforts to neutralize the remaining pockets of resistance in the police station and souvenir shop, Russian news agencies reported. They have been asked to surrender.

"They have been given some time to think, but it's understood that nobody is going to wait endlessly for their decision," ITAR-Tass and Interfax quoted Nurgaliyev as saying.

___

Associated Press writer Sergei Venyavsky contributed to this report from Rostov-on-Don, Russia.

news link



Hum... how is it that you chose the only press agency characterizing the kidnappers as muslims instead of chechen?

You know, considering the situation in Chechenia I would say this is not a small point in the story...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4340596.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/14/international/europe/14russia.html?oref=login
http://www.afp.fr/english/news/stories/051014045756.l3m1j5x9.html
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic...B322213_RTRUKOC_0_US-RUSSIA-ATTACK.xml
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/depeches/0,14-0,39-25870316@7-37,0.html
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Esteri/2005/10_Ottobre/14/russia.shtml

I mean... they are kidnappers and killers and must be stopped... but framing this as a religion war is simply uncorrect.
Huh?

Even some of the articles you linked claim they are Islamic militants. Islamicism is the driving force behind the Chechens and other "rebels" in the Caucasus. It's no secret so why are you trying hard to deny it?
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
War is ugly eh?

Where are the headlines when Chechens are bombed into dust? When families are buried from shelling? It's only the reverse, when the oppressed fight back, that we get headlines.


Well, actually you had journalists winning every kind of prizes in the '90s, including a Pulitzer, with pictures from Chechenya. At that time they (rebels) were heroes. I remember a journalist from Reuters I met at that time in Paris, describing how the rebels were hidden under Grozny, only coming out at night and ambushing russians' tanks. The fact that most of them were muslims wasn't even mentioned, and most westerns considered, if not heroic, at least cool. Guerrilla fighters are always somewhat romantic figures. We forget fast. Go look the pictures of Grozny at that time. The russians bombed the city untill everything was mud-brown. I mean everything. Not a building standing. The pictures had an almost abstract monocromatic look, because everything was just brown and covered with sand...

Anyway, that's true: framing these only as muslims is plain wrong. War and occupation of Chechenya is the cause of this terrorism.

However, my simpathy for their cause ends immediately when they start committing terror attacks against civilians. Period. I think they had every right to fight the russians invading Chechenya, considering the self-determination of people declaration. Everybody complained about Serbia's occupation of Bosnia, nobody did the same about Russia in Chechenya. Still, shey have no right to fight back now with terror attacks targeting civilians. This is just plain criminal.

If you read up on the topic, the only time their religion will actually be mentioned is that they're Sufi version is condemned by fundamentalists.

Also, the fundamentalists in Chechnya are much less than people would like to think, you just hear about them the most. After the assassination of Dudayev, a fundamentalist was put in as interim President and brought in foreigners. They're closely alligned with the Chechen terrorist Basayev - and this guy is a terrorist. These would be the guys who make the news. But you won't hear about things like Russia flattening an entire town.....
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: raildogg
Don't care what Bush said.

Take your Bush BS and post them somewhere else.

When it's your forum you can tell me where and when to post. Until then I'll keep exposing the fraud you people keep supporting.

lmao what fraud is being pushed in this thread?

The only thing you are exposing is your lack of logic and reasoning skills.

 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: bsobel
Russia is our enemy

Not for over a decade. We are going to continue to cozy up nice and close with them to provide stability for Europe and as way to control the growth of China...

They are our enemy in the sense that China is our enemy.

I think the word you're looking for is competitor... i don't think most chinese (even most party members) would consider americans thier enemy.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Even some of the articles you linked claim they are Islamic militants. Islamicism is the driving force behind the Chechens and other "rebels" in the Caucasus. It's no secret so why are you trying hard to deny it?

Hardly. The driving force behind most Chechens is independence after 300+ years of being controlled by Moscow. What's in the middle of Grozny? It's not a big Muslim statue, it's a memorial of when Stalin accused them of conpsiring with Nazis and deported the Republic to Siberia. Are there fundamentalists there? Absolutely, but that's not most of them.

Chechens want independence from a long list of horrible regimes.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Even some of the articles you linked claim they are Islamic militants. Islamicism is the driving force behind the Chechens and other "rebels" in the Caucasus. It's no secret so why are you trying hard to deny it?

Hardly. The driving force behind most Chechens is independence after 300+ years of being controlled by Moscow. What's in the middle of Grozny? It's not a big Muslim statue, it's a memorial of when Stalin accused them of conpsiring with Nazis and deported the Republic to Siberia. Are there fundamentalists there? Absolutely, but that's not most of them.

Chechens want independence from a long list of horrible regimes.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20...0d02e-1fca-45af-9d89-7952c6c1f409.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1576679,00.html

Chechnya has been predominately Muslim since the invasion by the Ottoman Turks. Previously the more moderate Sufi Islam was a driving factor for indepedence but lately more radical sects have infiltrated Chechnya in order to provide their "pure" brand of Islam, and they have supposed ties with both Wahhabism and al Qaeda.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
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Read your own links, because neither one supports your claim. I can Google and post links that have titles that sound interesting too.

Also, yes, there are ties (nothing really supposed about them) with terrorists. However, those ties are closely linked to Shamil Basayev and his band of nutjobs.

Most of the fundamentalism stems from Basayev and the former interim president (I forget his name, but he took over briefly after Dudayev was killed) who sought connections with the Wahhabi movements. (ie: Saudi Arabia connections)

Here is a better summery of the conflict.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. You don't even seem to think I'm aware they're Muslims, even though I posted it already. I am not saying there aren't fundamentalists there, driven solely by Islam, because those types of people are there. What I'm saying is that as a whole, that is not what the conflict is about.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: raildogg
So a while back these holy warriors killed hundreds of school children in Russia. Before that they killed countless people in that theatre in Mosow.

Now they're at it again. Russia is our enemy, but in terms of fighting Islamic terrorists, we have to back them in their fight against these people. I know what Russia has done in Chechnya is wrong, but this is not about that. Its a part of the global war between the believers and the non-believers.


At Least 85 Killed in Attacks in Russia



By FATIMA TLISOVA, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago

NALCHIK, Russia - Militants attacked police and government buildings in Russia's volatile Caucasus region Thursday, taking hostages and turning a provincial capital into a war zone wracked by gunfire and explosions that left at least 85 people dead, mostly insurgents.

Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for the offensive in Nalchik, the capital of the mostly Muslim republic of Kabardino-Balkariya, as a new front opened in the Kremlin's decade-old battle against Islamic insurgents.

The rebels' struggle against Russia, originally a separatist movement, increasingly has melded with Islamic extremism in the past decade and fanned out beyond
Chechnya's borders to encompass the entire Caucusus region.

The insurgent strategy of simultaneous attacks on facilities in Nalchik, a city of 235,000, was similar to a rebel siege last year in another Caucasus republic, Ingushetia, in what appears to be an attempt to target areas outside Chechnya and keep Moscow off-balance.

Kabardino-Balkariya is the fifth of seven republics in the mountainous region to be hit by the spillover of violence from the struggle in Chechnya. The insurgents are trying to exploit tensions among a variety of ethnic groups in the impoverished region as well as native Muslims and the ethnic Russians, who are Christian.

President Vladimir Putin, beleaguered by attacks that have killed hundreds of civilians and underscored his failure to bring the southern area under control, ordered a total blockade of Nalchik to prevent militants from slipping out. He told security forces to shoot any armed resisters.

Thursday's fighting began about 8:30 a.m. Thursday after police launched an operation to capture about 10 militants in a Nalchik suburb. All 10 suspected militants were killed, Russian Deputy Interior Minister Alexander Chekalin said.

Interfax cited an unidentified law enforcement official as saying fighting was sparked by an attempt by militants to free a group of detained adherents to the radical Wahhabi sect of Islam.

Gunmen staged simultaneous attacks against three police stations, the city's airport and the regional headquarters of the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service in what appeared what appeared to be an effort to divert police.

The attack at the airport was repelled, the facility was placed under military control and all flights were canceled, news reports said.

The militants also attacked the regional headquarters of the Russian prison system, the Emergency Situation Ministry's press office said. Interfax said a border guards' office also came under attack.

A teacher from School No. 5, who gave only his first name, Spartak, said children had been evacuated from the building, near a police station and an anti-terrorism office at the center of the attacks. Black smoke billowed from the building as panic-stricken parents searched for their children in the school yard.

Cars were overturned or gutted by gunfire, and Russian television footage showed the bloodied bodies of what appeared to be attackers in the streets.

The heavy fighting quieted down after about six hours, though sporadic gunfire continued and officials said militants were holding several hostages at a police station ? and released captives said others were being held at a building housing a souvenir shop.

Deputy Interior Minister Andrei Novikov said late Thursday that 61 militants were killed, some from Kabardino-Balkariya and some from other republics in the Russian Caucasus. Russian and regional officials said 12 civilians and 12 police officers were killed.

Russian news agencies, citing figures from Russia's Center for Catastrophic Medicine, reported that 13 people were killed and 116 others were hospitalized, but it was unclear whether those figures referred only to civilians.

Estimates of the number of militants involved ranged from 60 to 300, and the Interfax news agency quoted an aide to the president of Kabardino-Balkariya as saying late Thursday that 17 had been detained.

The region has suffered a growing wave of violence as Islamic extremism is spreading despite the government's harsh anti-terrorist methods, from targeted killings of rebel leaders such as Aslan Maskhadov to paying rewards for information to the demolition of houses where suspected rebels have found refuge.

Police and security forces have fought pitched battles with militants across the region, and the rebels have employed terrorist methods including suicide bombings and the seizure of more than 1,000 hostages last year in a school in the town of Beslan, 60 miles southeast of Nalchik.

The Kavkaz-Center Web site, seen as a voice for rebels loyal to Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, said it had received a short message claiming responsibility for Thursday's attack on behalf of the Caucasus Front. It said the group is part of the Chechen rebel armed forces and includes Yarmuk, an alleged militant Islamic group based in Kabardino-Balkariya.

Deputy Prosecutor General Vladimir Kolesnikov said suspects detained during Thursday's fighting said the offensive was carried out under orders from two wanted militants ? including an active supporter of Basayev.

But armed forces chief of staff Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky said he had no evidence Basayev was involved in the attack. Russian officials also said no evidence supported speculation Basayev had been killed.

As darkness fell, Chekalin said militants holed up in two offices at a police station were holding hostages and battling security forces. Regional President Arsen Kanokov said five or six militants held five hostages at the police station, Interfax reported. Shots rang out late into the night while armored personnel carriers drew close to the station.

At a building housing a souvenir shop, wounded militants released three hostages in exchange for water, but one of those freed said the attackers were still holding three captives.

At an emergency meeting early Friday, Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliyev ordered police to step up efforts to neutralize the remaining pockets of resistance in the police station and souvenir shop, Russian news agencies reported. They have been asked to surrender.

"They have been given some time to think, but it's understood that nobody is going to wait endlessly for their decision," ITAR-Tass and Interfax quoted Nurgaliyev as saying.

___

Associated Press writer Sergei Venyavsky contributed to this report from Rostov-on-Don, Russia.

news link



Hum... how is it that you chose the only press agency characterizing the kidnappers as muslims instead of chechen?

You know, considering the situation in Chechenia I would say this is not a small point in the story...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4340596.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/14/international/europe/14russia.html?oref=login
http://www.afp.fr/english/news/stories/051014045756.l3m1j5x9.html
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic...B322213_RTRUKOC_0_US-RUSSIA-ATTACK.xml
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/depeches/0,14-0,39-25870316@7-37,0.html
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Esteri/2005/10_Ottobre/14/russia.shtml

I mean... they are kidnappers and killers and must be stopped... but framing this as a religion war is simply uncorrect.
Huh?

Even some of the articles you linked claim they are Islamic militants. Islamicism is the driving force behind the Chechens and other "rebels" in the Caucasus. It's no secret so why are you trying hard to deny it?


I never denied they are muslims. Well, most of them. I am just saying that putting enphasys on this aspect doesn't help understanding the situation, and it's also a distortion of truth... The main driving force, as you called it, is not islamicism: it's their land being bobed and occupied for 15 years, and the entire population repressed and killed.