Is Windows 10 the final nail in Mantle's coffin?

[RampantAndroid]

Will the benefits of DX12 reducing CPU overhead apply to non-DX12 hardware? Will DX12 games benefit at all from running on DX11 and lower hardware?

 

[Silverforce11]

Actually the only news worthy thing here is MS wanting to give away Win 10 for free.. what's the catch?!

 

[2is]

Actually the only news worthy thing here is MS wanting to give away Win 10 for free.. what's the catch?!

Not that surprising really. Apple has been giving away the last three versions of OSX for free, MS is following suit. That's the best way to get everyone on your latest product as fast as possible. They clearly want as many people off the older platforms as quickly as possible.

 

[monstercameron]

Actually the only news worthy thing here is MS wanting to give away Win 10 for free.. what's the catch?!

bing, duh duh dum!

 

[monstercameron]

We did, but you need to do your research too. There are more games NOT using mantle than games that are. Cureently there are only 11 games that have support for Mantle. Almost all of them are from EA and using Frostbyte 3. That's fact. Also about 80% of the dGPU market cannot use mantle.



The benefits of DX12 will come much faster than DX11 I promise you.

"There are more games NOT using mantle than games that are." and desktop gl or directx 10, your point?

"Cureently there are only 11 games that have support for Mantle" dont forget unreal engine 3 in thief, ashura engine in sniper elite and whatever oxide is using.

" That's fact. Also about 80% of the dGPU market cannot use mantle." how much will use dx12 to its full potential?

tis a new api.

 

[jackstar7]

Wasn't the plan for Mantle 2.0 to be a thing, and wouldn't it likely come much faster than DX13? I think Mantle will still bring value and innovation as it did from the start.

And if Battlefront has a Mantle layer, I expect to take advantage of it.

 

[RampantAndroid]

" That's fact. Also about 80% of the dGPU market cannot use mantle." how much will use dx12 to its full potential?

tis a new api.

From looking around, some benefits of DX12 will be available to non-DX12 hardware. So I'm not sure how much it matters...if games offer DX12 right away there will be a benefit whether you have DX12 or not.

 

[sandorski]

Maybe.

 

[PPB]

Most likely the uber duper super gimped and cut down version of Windows 10 will be that nice free upgrade everybody is hyping so much. The other versions (the ones not terribly gimped or cut down or dumbed down) will be yours for some absurd ammount of money (your good ol' Microsoft as usual). That is probably your catch.

Or probably play the F2P game and deconstruct their entire marketing philosophy, making the core OS free but everything else (and I mean lots of software we take for granted and are usually shipped as part of the very OS) worth some bucks being cashed in a microtransaction. Leave the OS as barebones as they can (W10 shipped with IE1X, just to be used for downloading Spartan or Chrome, for example) and attempt to pull a moneygrab with almost everything else. Also try to separate software suites ala Android and make rip Office apart, making Word cost 5 bucks, Excel another 5, Powerpoint another 10, and that other crap I never install worth a little less, but make all of them individual installs.

My bet is option 1, option 2 would be nice (I just want the OS, I use office only for compatibility reasons, I wouldnt touch the rest of their software withy a 10 ft pole) but then again, this discussion is only relevant for those who actually pay for their Windows installation. The other 2/3rds of the population will most probably have another dilemmas regarding installing this new version of Windows (gotta give a really good reason to make those W7/XP fans change their minds, you know).

 

[zlatan]

With Microsoft announcing that Windows 10 (and with it, DX12) will be a free upgrade to Windows 7 and 8 users, is that the unofficial end of Mantle? I certainly think so.

Mantle is a more modern API than D3D12. It supports simplified resource model, monolithic pipelines, more explicit GPU management. Overall it exposes more low-level features than D3D12. This doesn't mean that D3D12 is a bad API, actually it's awesome, but MS don't want to care about niche markets, for expamle hardcore gamers with multi-GPU. This is where Mantle still counts, with more control to create exotic Multi-GPU management.
Also Mantle is more closer to the GNM API (PS4), so for R&D purposes it is easier to work with Mantle, and port the code to D3D12. And for the main selling point. Mantle will advance much faster than D3D. It will expose new things 1-2 years earlier than D3D.
Certainly many developers won't write a Mantle renderer, since they will happy with D3D12. This is normal. But there will be always some innovators in the industry, and they will want to push the graphics to the limits, and also beyond it, beyond what is possible with D3D12.

 

[XiandreX]

But Windows 10 IS a free upgrade, so i'm not sure what purpose you're trying to serve by bring up a scenario that we know doesn't exist. That's like saying if mantle was better supported it would be better supported....

From what I have read its a free upgrade for Windows 8/8.1 users but a 1 year trial for Windows 7 users.
As far as Mantle dying, its way too soon to tell. I personally believe Mantle will continue to be a viable option.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Mantle is a more modern API than D3D12. It supports simplified resource model, monolithic pipelines, more explicit GPU management. Overall it exposes more low-level features than D3D12. This doesn't mean that D3D12 is a bad API, actually it's awesome, but MS don't want to care about niche markets, for expamle hardcore gamers with multi-GPU. This is where Mantle still counts, with more control to create exotic Multi-GPU management.
Also Mantle is more closer to the GNM API (PS4), so for R&D purposes it is easier to work with Mantle, and port the code to D3D12. And for the main selling point. Mantle will advance much faster than D3D. It will expose new things 1-2 years earlier than D3D.
Certainly many developers won't write a Mantle renderer, since they will happy with D3D12. This is normal. But there will be always some innovators in the industry, and they will want to push the graphics to the limits, and also beyond it, beyond what is possible with D3D12.

+1

AMD's Huddy said that "Mantle 2.0" will give more low-level access to AMD specific hardware features. This could allow ultra low latency VR (AMD will talk VR on GDC 2015) or other special cases.

So, Mantle is not dead. It's just less interesting for gamers now.

PS: I'm still waiting for the public Mantle SDK. Not even official information about the delay ... AMD?

Edit: Just wanted to add that Unity is already working on DX12. They have working DX12 hardware+drivers from Intel and nVidia, not from AMD. Nothing really new, because AMD did the same with DX11, but one would think that because Mantle seems so similar to DX12 they would release a driver faster.

 

[sontin]

Also Mantle is more closer to the GNM API (PS4), so for R&D purposes it is easier to work with Mantle, and port the code to D3D12. And for the main selling point.

Microsoft has no problem to introduce a new subset of features every year. See DX11.1 and DX11.2.
They are porting Fable Legends from the Xone One API to DX12. And Epic has ported their Elementary demo to DX12 from DX11. In both cases there doesnt exist an involvement of Mantle.

Mantle will advance much faster than D3D. It will expose new things 1-2 years earlier than D3D.
Certainly many developers won't write a Mantle renderer, since they will happy with D3D12. This is normal. But there will be always some innovators in the industry, and they will want to push the graphics to the limits, and also beyond it, beyond what is possible with D3D12.

Mantle doesnt even support the new DX12 hardware feature yet. No developer will support multiple Mantle versions with different feature sets. Microsoft has make mantle irrelevant with the introduction of new hardware features and DX11.3.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Mantle doesnt even support the new DX12 hardware feature yet.

Ah you know those? That's great. Could you please tell us what new hardware features DX12 will have?

Thx :thumbsup:

 

[sontin]

• Rasterizer Ordered Views
• Typed UAV Load
• Volume Tiled Resources
• Conservative Raster

Those features were announced back in April.

 

[AtenRa]

With Microsoft announcing that Windows 10 (and with it, DX12) will be a free upgrade to Windows 7 and 8 users, is that the unofficial end of Mantle? I certainly think so.

No, there are new Mantle games coming in 2015.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Those features were announced back in April.

Those are only the features DX12 will share with 11.3, not all the DX12 features.

You know, Mantle does not "support" TR (tiled resources), as it does not have anything that would help you doing it. But still, you can do TR, because you have to manage the memory yourself. Most features about 11.3 should work on the Mantle API by implementing them yourself. I don't know about Rasterizer Ordered Views, those could need special hardware.

 

[sontin]

Those features need hardware support from a performance perspective.
So no, you cant use the Mantle API to offer the same benefits.

 

[RussianSensation]

Mantle isn't dead for 3 reasons:

1) Mantle will benefit all GCN users regardless of the OS. Since not everyone will be running Windows 10, it'll take years before Windows 10 is 50%+ of the market. If you are running Windows 7/8.1, Mantle will still work but DX12 CPU overhead reduction will be unavailable to this gamer.

2) Extending from point #1, EVEN if Windows 10 adoption is quicker than ever, it still takes developers 2-3 years to make brand new game engines/games based on DX12 API. Have all you forgotten how long it takes for games to be built from the ground-up using the next gen DX tech? We've all been here before with DX8.1 -> 9.0c --> DX10 --> DX11 games. Considering W10 is only slated for Fall 2015 launch, it'll still be years before we even see the benefit of DX12 in mainstream gaming vs. Mantle which is already here today. Therefore, for the next 2-3 years, I still expect to see some games that use Mantle (i.e., the next BF games).

3) DX12 or Mantle do not prevent developers from using either or in games. Meaning that if you can use Mantle for special cases like SFR in CF to improve frame times, there is still a usage model for it for GCN that DX12 doesn't address. At the same time, AMD doesn't vendor lock DX12 from their products. If AMD continues working with developers on Mantle, it won't necessarily die but its adoption will continue to be very limited MORE due to the fact that 70%+ of the dGPU market is NV. It's not a very wise use of financial resources for developers to spend $ to target 30% of the dGPU market, a % that will likely continue to decline. Those developers which have already used Mantle though (DICE, etc.) have learned how it works which means for them the additional costs to add Mantle will be a lot less. That's why it's expected that EA will use Mantle in some of its 2015 games.

No, there are new Mantle games coming in 2015.

And 0 DX12 games. The beauty of AMD's business practices is that Mantle doesn't hurt DX11, 12 performance or degrade performance on NV products. Whether or not Mantle exists has little to no relevance to an NV only gamer as far as his/her experience is in a game. For owners of GCN AMD cards, it's an added bonus but since those owners will get to choose between DX11/12 and Mantle, they get more options with no downsides.

Why is this important? It means for us, the gaming community, there is no incentive whatsoever for Mantle to die. If Mantle continues and evolves, it will only force MS to work that much harder on improving DX. It's not a secret that Mantle did A LOT to push MS with releasing DX12 and focus on the CPU overhead reduction. It's also not a secret that AMD helped MS with the CPU overhead reduction in DX12. It's not as if AMD is trying to position Mantle vs. DX12, rather the opposite, it's Mantle OR DX, your choice! I like to have a choice instead of proprietary tech being shoved down my throat.

 

[krumme]

What a crap title as usual with the usual fanboy fireworks. Does it absolutely have to be so dark/white and stupid? Is it about getting views or what?

Dx12 is just like mantle by a long stretch - the devs said "where have we seen this before" - and does strategically much of the same for amd - leveraging the cores - as mantle does. Dx12 just proved the concept.

Mantle is a close console derivative anyway and meant for other platforms as well.

 

[ShintaiDK]

From what I have read its a free upgrade for Windows 8/8.1 users but a 1 year trial for Windows 7 users.

Wrong. Its completely free.

 

[Chocu1a]

From what I have read its a free upgrade for Windows 8/8.1 users but a 1 year trial for Windows 7 users.

Say whaaaaaat? that is the most unreliable bs I have read all day. Have you even read Microsofts blog? LOLOLOOOLOLOLOL.
There is no trial period. wtf. smh

 

[Keysplayr]

source

"The new 'free' strategy is aimed at establishing Windows on as many devices as possible, and then trying to make up for lost revenue by selling valuable services such as Office over the internet, or cloud."

Nothing is free.

Yup, we'll be paying monthly fees to use what we've been using since the early nineties for a set fee. Over time, Microsoft will have charged far more than the OS would have cost straight out.

 

[coercitiv]

Wrong. Its completely free.

I remember a large OS maker warning customers there's no such thing as "completely free".

This is an extract from a MS blog post.

We announced that a free upgrade for Windows 10 will be made available to customers running Windows 7, Windows 8.1, and Windows Phone 8.1 who upgrade in the first year after launch.*

*Hardware and software requirements apply. No additional charge. Feature availability may vary by device. Some editions excluded.

This is more than a one-time upgrade: once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device – at no cost. With Windows 10, the experience will evolve and get even better over time. We’ll deliver new features when they’re ready, not waiting for the next major release. We think of Windows as a Service – in fact, one could reasonably think of Windows in the next couple of years as one of the largest Internet services on the planet.

Notice the following mentions - Windows as a service - and - supported lifetime of device. At this moment we may have more questions than answers. Something will definetely be free though, and I expect early adopters to get real value out of this.

 

[zlatan]

Oh god. There is a lot of misunderstanding here.

Drivers: So D3D12 is a low-level API. The drivers will be mainly shader compliers. This is the evolution of the low-level approach. Most things that the drivers previously handled "automatically" will be handled by the application itself. It must be optimized for every GPU IP by the developers. I don't want to oversimplify this, but in some aspect it is safe to say that the application will be the graphics driver.

New features:
Rasterizer Ordered Views - this is actually a memory view ordering option and it is possible in Mantle or GNM. The GPU can wait for GDS changes preventing the further shader execution until it will be safe.
Typed UAV Load - as I said Mantle use a simplified resource model so there is no UAV, SRV, CBV, and other buffer types. There is only memory and image. This is a more robust solution because you don't need to care about legacy stuff. With the image buffer type everything is possible. Every shader stage can write to or read from it, and it supports every format. So Mantle don't need these new resource types to support more functions, because the base resource model allow everything.
Volume Tiled Resources - with explicit memory management it is possible in Mantle and GNM.
Conservative Raster - well conservative rasterization is not really a hardware feature. I'm actually wrote some code with conservative rasterization ten years ago when I bought a GeForce 6800. It was fun. Anyway certainly it is possible in Mantle and GNM also.

Keep in mind that the low-level APIs will simplify the access to the hardware. In the past, many new features came to the API because the driver actually hid the GPU memory from the application. So if we want something new, it had to be implemented in the API, and then a new driver introduced the supporf for it. This is where the application can access the new feature. But in the future this will change, because the new low-level model will allow explicit access to the GPU memory. So if we want something new we can implement it. This simple.
Sure it will hurt the marketing departments, because they don't able to sell new fancy buzzwords to the market, but look at NVIDIA they are now selling effects as a feature. It's bullshit but nobody cares about it. This is the evolution of the marketing.