Is this true about Christianity?

[Zebo]

Some good reasoned posts Amused. Helps me put things in perspective.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It's not so much individuality. Christianity, because of the incarnation, asserts that human lives are precious above all else. And that is unique to Christianity.

I swear to the FSM, if you told me the sky was blue, I'd have to run outside to see the sky's new color myself. I know of very few people so wrong, so often, as the likes of you.

 

[piasabird]

Jesus wants you to break the chains of sin to make the individual truly free. However, the world uses its immoral influence to enslave the individual through money and other immoral sins like alcoholism and drug abuse.

What makes a man truly free?

 

[thraashman]

Any group, religious or not, wants conformity of its members to some degree. Some more than others. But conformity none-the-less. Religion is no different. Christianity isn't some unique, morally superior beacon light that will make everything awesome. It's worse about the want of conformity than some groups and better than others. We all conform in some small way to something for some reason. Some worse than others. People who listen to Glenn Beck worse than most.

 

[DominionSeraph]

What makes a man truly free?

Death.

 

[Amused]

Some good reasoned posts Amused. Helps me put things in perspective.

Thank you Zebo.

Ya know, it's funny, but I used to be an ardent atheist and vow that religion/faith only ever kept men down and held back progress. Just as those who have "nuh uhed!!!" my every post here you could never have got me to admit anything postive could spring from it.

Then I grew older and a bit wiser and realized that nothing is black and white. While still a non-believer I can admit that a faith had a strong influence in a positive movement.

Individuality is unique to western, Christian culture. Many try to point only to the printing press and literacy and exclude Chrsitianity, yet as the printing press and literacy spread around the world, individualism remained unique to western Christian cultures. And the reasons I gave above explain why this came to pass. Christian culture had within it's ranks a very unique revolution that lead to the ideology of individuality.

Pat Robertson is wrong, Individuality and individual rights is not Christian in and of itself. But the revolution within Chrsitianity gave rise to the ideal. And unlike earlier shortlived individuality movements, this one had actual lasting power and created entire nations based upon it.

No, individuality is not Christian. But it would not exist today without EVERYTHING from history falling into place exactly as it did. And that INCLUDES Christianity and it's unique evolution.

Some seem unable to give up their bias. Those who cannot are never really able to understand history, theist and athiest alike.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

No, individuality is not Christian. But it would not exist today without EVERYTHING from history falling into place exactly as it did. And that INCLUDES Christianity and it's unique evolution.

I'm just picking nits here, but the above claim is a pretty silly one. It's like saying there's only one route to the grocery store from your house. There may be a most direct route, but to say that nobody can possibly get to the store without taking exactly that route is quite preposterous.

 

[Amused]

I'm just picking nits here, but the above claim is a pretty silly one. It's like saying there's only one route to the grocery store from your house. There may be a most direct route, but to say that nobody can possibly get to the store without taking exactly that route is quite preposterous.

The evolution of a society is quite a bit more complicated than that. It is, in fact, a sum total of all that has happened.

 

[Zebo]

I'm not an atheist but agnostic I don't know the answers of what lies beyond but without proof and understanding a bit about evolution faith is impossible for me. I dislike group think as whole weather it be fraternity like Masons, religion or politics. Hard headed like to explore on my own. But I think your point is fair and backed up with historical perspective with regard to church split and further divergence with enlightenment (age of reason). It's Paul Craig Roberts.. not that freak preacher sucking little blue haired old ladies SS checks Robertson, but Reagan's Treasury secretary and Stanford professor in economics.

 

[Zebo]

Jesus wants you to break the chains of sin to make the individual truly free. However, the world uses its immoral influence to enslave the individual through money and other immoral sins like alcoholism and drug abuse.

What makes a man truly free?

I'm most free fishing. Nothing more I like than getting on the lake turning locator on, finding a spot, pushing the button on my electric anchors and tossing a line in the water. See eagles flying. Peace quiet. I dont even care if I catch anything I can stay out all day.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The evolution of a society is quite a bit more complicated than that. It is, in fact, a sum total of all that has happened.

I'm not denying that we are here because of what happened before us, but the idea that we couldn't have gotten here any other way merely demonstrates a lack of imagination on the part of the person adhering to that idea.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Individuality is unique to western, Christian culture.

The masses have never been free of conformity.

Many try to point only to the printing press and literacy and exclude Chrsitianity, yet as the printing press and literacy spread around the world, individualism remained unique to western Christian cultures.

Yes, because Christianity was such a retarded belief system that it broke into a million pieces, whereas more consistent systems weathered the storm. You then have conflict between the groups, and conflict breeds necessity which is the mother of invention.
Within the gaps, science and philosophy flourished. This is not the same as Christianity creating science and philosophy.
Science and philosophy would've done much better without the anchor of Christianity.

 

[Amused]

The masses have never been free of conformity.



Yes, because Christianity was such a retarded belief system that it broke into a million pieces, whereas more consistent systems weathered the storm. You then have conflict between the groups, and conflict breeds necessity which is the mother of invention.
Within the gaps, science and philosophy flourished. This is not the same as Christianity creating science and philosophy.
Science and philosophy would've done much better without the anchor of Christianity.

What was the anchor that held back those in Asia?

The fracturing of Christianity was unique in a way that not only did the faith endure, but men found individual freedom within it while men in all other regions and faiths of the world did not find freedom and individuality.

You're so busy hating something that you can't even see the whole picture. That was always what struck me the most funny: Atheists becoming as intolerant and hateful as the religions they disavow. Main reason I stopped calling myself atheist and decided agnostic better described me was people like you. Just as closed minded as those you profess to be against because they're closed minded. In their fight for whatever, atheists became just like their enemy.

Western civilization did not succeed in finding individuality in spite of Christianity, it was the unique nature of the evolution of Christianity that made it possible while the rest of the world wallowed in chains, be they religious, political or both. Even those recent governments that discarded/banned religion never achived it (modern China and the USSR).

 

[Madwand1]

Individualism survived despite Christianity, perhaps with the aid of some elements of Christianity in cultures otherwise dominated by it, as Robert claims. But to claim that individualism is a consequence of Christianity is nonsense merely illustrating bias conscious or otherwise, and as usual, a misunderstanding of Christianity itself.

Individualism's ultimate form is anarchy, but anarchy, its would-be proponents, and its opponents, have not evolved enough yet to have finality in that argument.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Western civilization did not succeed in finding individuality in spite of Christianity, it was the unique nature of the evolution of Christianity that made it possible while the rest of the world wallowed in chains, be they religious, political or both. Even those recent governments that discarded/banned religion never achived it (modern China and the USSR).

Utterly ignorant horseshit, as previous stated.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

What's the deal here? How does Christianity make individual count more than in other religions? Sounds like a bunch of BS to me and stealth proselytizing by Mr Roberts whom I respect.

Christianity was originally based on the idea that YOU are god. It was started by slaves. It was all about self-empowerment. Since then it has been massively perverted by organizers.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Science and philosophy would've done much better without the anchor of Christianity.

Way wrong.

 

[werepossum]

Modern Islam is based on total submission to God. Christianity of centuries past was probably more comparable, but of modern religion, especially if you are simply interpreting text, Islam allows for very, very little individuality. Everything that happens is predetermined, and you live to serve God. People can keep lying to themselves in the name of political correctness, but religions are not all the same, and not all equal.

This was true of Islam as well until the 14th century, when Islam underwent a reverse renaissance reformation and went back to the Quran as the literal word of G-d and Sharia as the unchanging and only acceptable law. Nonetheless, the article seems to me to be quite a stretch. Christianity may allow societies more freedom to evolve than does Hinduism or Islam, but Judaism and Buddhism are arguably as free. Each major religion has various sect with more and less personal freedom, and these and cultural differences exert much more influence on personal freedom. It would be hard for instance to argue that a Reform Jew has less personal freedom than a fundamentalist Pentecostal Christian.

 

[Amused]

Utterly ignorant horseshit, as previous stated.

"Nuh uh!!!"

This is all this thread has been filled with.

Your bias is blinding you. Bummer.

 

[DominionSeraph]

What was the anchor that held back those in Asia?

Asia has billions of people. They're doing quite fine.

The fracturing of Christianity was unique in a way that not only did the faith endure, but men found individual freedom within it while men in all other regions and faiths of the world did not find freedom and individuality.

You're so busy hating something that you can't even see the whole picture.

No, you're just so ideologically rigid that you can't see that you've got things BACKWARDS. Your way doesn't even make any fucking sense going forward -- you have no causation for Christianity's change. What, did God wave his magic wand and free the Protestants? Please.
The same forces that caused Christianity's fracturing continued to wedge into the collective psyche. With the fracture, unchristian thoughts could be thought. Topics that had been filled with rigid dogma were now bursting with life. That was not Christianity's doing -- Christianity was not an actor, it was acted upon.
Christianity shattered before the storm. Just because enough pieces settled in quiet areas that we can say that Christianity remained doesn't mean that Christianity was an actor.

To expand on the faery analogy, say the masses believe that faeries control everything, from the government to the actions of the TV through the remote control. We believe the government has the blessing of the faeries -- as proof: The jack-booted government enforcers make the faeries' displeasure known whenever someone questions the government.
But, after a while, the government goes too far. We the people get tired of their shit -- we go from passive, to passive aggression, to outright revolt. The government falls, as governments do when they don't have the consent of the governed. (not that we knew that -- we thought the faeries could bowl us over; but we were just to tired to care if we lost)
The fall of the government shows us that the faeries were NOT really behind the government. Wow. It's like a veil has been lifted from our eyes. Gears start turning... "Hey, maybe the faeries were really on OUR side!"
The false attribution of the faeries' power to the people as a placeholder for the people's real power does not make Faeryism the driving force behind the initial or any subsequent change. That the power was recognized is all that matters; the attribution after-the-fact does nothing but put a name to it.

You're seeing something within an evolved structure and falsely concluding that because it is within the structure that the structure causes it. In reality it is in the structure because IT WAS IN THE ENVIRONMENT THE STRUCTURE CONFORMED TO.

Polar bears are adapted to ice. Does this mean polar bears cause ice? No. They are just adapted so they can get along just fine when there's ice all around.
Christianity adapted so that it can get along just fine when there's some degree of individuality. Doesn't mean it caused it or that it is necessary for individualism's existence.
If Christianity had been COMPLETELY at odds with individualism, what do you think would've happened? That every European's head would've exploded? Please. A collapsing belief structure just heralds a paradigm shift.

Western civilization did not succeed in finding individuality in spite of Christianity, it was the unique nature of the evolution of Christianity that made it possible while the rest of the world wallowed in chains, be they religious, political or both. Even those recent governments that discarded/banned religion never achived it (modern China and the USSR).

The major religion of the people of the USSR was Christianity, moron.
And THERE goes your argument. Game. Set. Match.

 

[Amused]

Asia has billions of people. They're doing quite fine.



No, you're just so ideologically rigid that you can't see that you've got things BACKWARDS. Your way doesn't even make any fucking sense going forward -- you have no causation for Christianity's change. What, did God wave his magic wand and free the Protestants? Please.
The same forces that caused Christianity's fracturing continued to wedge into the collective psyche. With the fracture, unchristian thoughts could be thought. Topics that had been filled with rigid dogma were now bursting with life. That was not Christianity's doing -- Christianity was not an actor, it was acted upon.
Christianity shattered before the storm. Just because enough pieces settled in quiet areas that we can say that Christianity remained doesn't mean that Christianity was an actor.

To expand on the faery analogy, say the masses believe that faeries control everything, from the government to the actions of the TV through the remote control. We believe the government has the blessing of the faeries -- as proof: The jack-booted government enforcers make the faeries' displeasure known whenever someone questions the government.
But, after a while, the government goes too far. We the people get tired of their shit -- we go from passive, to passive aggression, to outright revolt. The government falls, as governments do when they don't have the consent of the governed. (not that we knew that -- we thought the faeries could bowl us over; but we were just to tired to care if we lost)
The fall of the government shows us that the faeries were NOT really behind the government. Wow. It's like a veil has been lifted from our eyes. Gears start turning... "Hey, maybe the faeries were really on OUR side!"
The false attribution of the faeries' power to the people as a placeholder for the people's real power does not make Faeryism the driving force behind the initial or any subsequent change. That the power was recognized is all that matters; the attribution after-the-fact does nothing but put a name to it.

You're seeing something within an evolved structure and falsely concluding that because it is within the structure that the structure causes it. In reality it is in the structure because IT WAS IN THE ENVIRONMENT THE STRUCTURE CONFORMED TO.

Polar bears are adapted to ice. Does this mean polar bears cause ice? No. They are just adapted so they can get along just fine when there's ice all around.
Christianity adapted so that it can get along just fine when there's some degree of individuality. Doesn't mean it caused it or that it is necessary for individualism's existence.
If Christianity had been COMPLETELY at odds with individualism, what do you think would've happened? That every European's head would've exploded? Please. A collapsing belief structure just heralds a paradigm shift.



The major religion of the USSR was Christianity, moron.

Oh for fucks sake. Really? A Craigesque wall of text? Really?

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion[1] and its replacement with atheism.[2][3] Toward that end, the communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools.[4]

State atheism in the Soviet Union was known as "gosateizm,[5] and was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism. As the founder of the Soviet state V. I. Lenin put it:

Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[6]

Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression,and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs. Within about a year of the revolution the state expropriated all church property, including the churches themselves, and in the period from 1922 to 1926, 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and more than 1,200 priests were killed (a much greater number was subjected to persecution).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

Moron? Really?

You're the fucking moron that cannot see how the idea of individualism is unique to western, christian civilizations because of the very evolution of chrstianity. You deny the obvious to keep your own personal biases. You never speak of christianity with ANY objectivity. Your bias bleeds through like a stuck pig, obvious for all to see. Try objectivity for once.

I HAVE no ideology when it comes to religion. As I said before, I'm and agnostic. What I am also not a believer in is political atheism like you.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Asia has billions of people. They're doing quite fine.



No, you're just so ideologically rigid that you can't see that you've got things BACKWARDS. Your way doesn't even make any fucking sense going forward -- you have no causation for Christianity's change. What, did God wave his magic wand and free the Protestants? Please.
The same forces that caused Christianity's fracturing continued to wedge into the collective psyche. With the fracture, unchristian thoughts could be thought. Topics that had been filled with rigid dogma were now bursting with life. That was not Christianity's doing -- Christianity was not an actor, it was acted upon.
Christianity shattered before the storm. Just because enough pieces settled in quiet areas that we can say that Christianity remained doesn't mean that Christianity was an actor.

To expand on the faery analogy, say the masses believe that faeries control everything, from the government to the actions of the TV through the remote control. We believe the government has the blessing of the faeries -- as proof: The jack-booted government enforcers make the faeries' displeasure known whenever someone questions the government.
But, after a while, the government goes too far. We the people get tired of their shit -- we go from passive, to passive aggression, to outright revolt. The government falls, as governments do when they don't have the consent of the governed. (not that we knew that -- we thought the faeries could bowl us over; but we were just to tired to care if we lost)
The fall of the government shows us that the faeries were NOT really behind the government. Wow. It's like a veil has been lifted from our eyes. Gears start turning... "Hey, maybe the faeries were really on OUR side!"
The false attribution of the faeries' power to the people as a placeholder for the people's real power does not make Faeryism the driving force behind the initial or any subsequent change. That the power was recognized is all that matters; the attribution after-the-fact does nothing but put a name to it.

You're seeing something within an evolved structure and falsely concluding that because it is within the structure that the structure causes it. In reality it is in the structure because IT WAS IN THE ENVIRONMENT THE STRUCTURE CONFORMED TO.

Polar bears are adapted to ice. Does this mean polar bears cause ice? No. They are just adapted so they can get along just fine when there's ice all around.
Christianity adapted so that it can get along just fine when there's some degree of individuality. Doesn't mean it caused it or that it is necessary for individualism's existence.
If Christianity had been COMPLETELY at odds with individualism, what do you think would've happened? That every European's head would've exploded? Please. A collapsing belief structure just heralds a paradigm shift.



The major religion of the people of the USSR was Christianity, moron.
And THERE goes your argument. Game. Set. Match.

Wrong. During the USSR days Stalin forbid any kind of religion. Communism was the religion and Stalin was god. In the communistic view religion was seen as evil. They went as far as that people had to hang picture of Stalin in the living room.

 

[sandorski]

Protestantism was not the only force at work during the Reformation. There was also the rediscovered Knowledge/Philosophy of the Greeks and other ancient civilizations. The Greeks most certainly had Individuality that predates Christianity.

 

[nonlnear]

Protestantism was not the only force at work during the Reformation.

Actually, by definition, yes it was. "Protestantism" is not a set of denominations, rather the Protestant denominations are the result of protestantism.

There was also the rediscovered Knowledge/Philosophy of the Greeks and other ancient civilizations. The Greeks most certainly had Individuality that predates Christianity.

Greek philosophy was not really "rediscovered" in anything resembling a dramatic process. Aristotle had more influence on medieval Catholic dogma than the Bible itself.

Also, the Greeks were not as individualistic as modern folk imagine them to be. Their foremost scholars had many of the pieces of modern individualism (not all of them having the same pieces at the same time), but it was held within a cultural matrix which was polis-centered. Socrates' choice to drink the hemlock is often viewed by modern people as a dramatic gesture which asserted his integrity by refusing to recant his beliefs, but that is a weak argument at best. Socrates could have chosen exile and lived as a true "individual" without recanting a word, but he preferred to accept the fate allotted to him by his fellow Athenians because he shared the contemporaneous view that the individual was an integral part of his city-state. Yes, there were a lot of freedoms to be enjoyed, but these were NEVER viewed as inalienable rights.

 

[DominionSeraph]

Wrong. During the USSR days Stalin forbid any kind of religion.

I forbid you from believing that you are anything other than a frog.

If you are not now of the belief that you are a frog, then it would seem that beliefs aren't so susceptible to commands. If you are now thinking you are a frog, you will not reply, for frogs cannot type.
Either way I win.