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Is there really a difference between CD-R and CD-Audio CDs?
- Thread starter whizler
- Start date
randomlinh
Lifer
marketing scam, and the that you can only use those in stand alones.
If by "functional" you just mean what the ear hears, maybe not. But, WAV files can only be played back through a computer. Audio tracks conform to an international standard developed years ago by Philips/Sony known as 'Red Book.'
The Philips/Sony standard for CD-R (Compact Disk Write Once) is Orange Book. Interactive CD or CD-I (used for movies before DVD) is known as Green Book. Yellow Book is the format used for data storage.
While the files in WAV format may sound the same on a computer as regular audio tracks, they won't sound at all on a music playback system.
It's not marketing hype . . . just different formats.
All these standards were developed by Philips and Sony circa 1985.
The Philips/Sony standard for CD-R (Compact Disk Write Once) is Orange Book. Interactive CD or CD-I (used for movies before DVD) is known as Green Book. Yellow Book is the format used for data storage.
While the files in WAV format may sound the same on a computer as regular audio tracks, they won't sound at all on a music playback system.
It's not marketing hype . . . just different formats.
All these standards were developed by Philips and Sony circa 1985.
Corky-g,
That stuff is all true, but the type of disk used to hold the data has nothing to do with Red book or Orange book standards. The way the data is formatted is what the standard covers.
The audio-only CD-R's that they are asking about has a flag set in the subcode that says it is an audio disc, meaning that the manufacturer has paid a royalty to the greedy record companies for the privelege of producing a blank disc. Hi-fi component CD recorders won't write a disk that doesn't have that flag set. Computer CD recorders couldn't care less.
So the difference in price between computer CD-Rs and audio CD-Rs is the royalty paid to the recording industry, not marketing hype or improved quality or anything magical.
That stuff is all true, but the type of disk used to hold the data has nothing to do with Red book or Orange book standards. The way the data is formatted is what the standard covers.
The audio-only CD-R's that they are asking about has a flag set in the subcode that says it is an audio disc, meaning that the manufacturer has paid a royalty to the greedy record companies for the privelege of producing a blank disc. Hi-fi component CD recorders won't write a disk that doesn't have that flag set. Computer CD recorders couldn't care less.
So the difference in price between computer CD-Rs and audio CD-Rs is the royalty paid to the recording industry, not marketing hype or improved quality or anything magical.
workin' it's not a licensing or royalty fee, it's a TAX. canada has a tariff on both data and audio CDs. US has tariff only on audio CDs. and since there is no inherent difference, the only thing that the US tariff is on is if the label of the disc and packaging has AUDIO CD written on it. and the extra price on the audio CD packages is not ALL tariff, companies make more per disc on audio labeled cds.
Sorry, Mday, it is absolutely, positively, a royalty. Without a doubt. At all. No question about it. Don't know about Canada - other than they like to tax the sh!t out of everything. Maybe a little bit extra for fancier packaging, but the bulk of the difference is the ROYALTY.
Here's a little history and additional trivia......
The electronics industry's refusal to pay royalties on DAT (Digital Audio Tape) blanks for consumer decks in the early 1980's led to the introduction of SCMS (Serial Copy Management System), which allowed only one generation of digital copying (i.e., you could copy an original but not a copy). Unfortunately SCMS was proven to introduce audible artifacts and thus led to the demise of DAT as a consumer format. DAT is still alive in the professional arena but there it is not burdened with SCMS, since it is used pre-mastering and not typically available to the general public.
The DAT/SCMS debacle led to the royalty scheme on audio CD-R's to avoid the destruction of yet another new format.
When the electronics companies announced plans to produce a consumer-oriented CD recorder (i.e., one you can put in your stereo system that looks like a stereo component, and has no other use than to record music), the RIAA threatened with never-ending lawsuits unless the format either 1)prevented digital copying (via SCMS or another scheme), or 2)paid a royalty on blank media. Since a CD recorder that can't make digital copies is not very appealing, the electronics industry agreed to tack on the royalty fee to the blanks, plus set the proper flag on the disc to indicate that it has been paid and would therefore work in an audio-only recorder.
And that's the rest of the story.
Here's a little history and additional trivia......
The electronics industry's refusal to pay royalties on DAT (Digital Audio Tape) blanks for consumer decks in the early 1980's led to the introduction of SCMS (Serial Copy Management System), which allowed only one generation of digital copying (i.e., you could copy an original but not a copy). Unfortunately SCMS was proven to introduce audible artifacts and thus led to the demise of DAT as a consumer format. DAT is still alive in the professional arena but there it is not burdened with SCMS, since it is used pre-mastering and not typically available to the general public.
The DAT/SCMS debacle led to the royalty scheme on audio CD-R's to avoid the destruction of yet another new format.
When the electronics companies announced plans to produce a consumer-oriented CD recorder (i.e., one you can put in your stereo system that looks like a stereo component, and has no other use than to record music), the RIAA threatened with never-ending lawsuits unless the format either 1)prevented digital copying (via SCMS or another scheme), or 2)paid a royalty on blank media. Since a CD recorder that can't make digital copies is not very appealing, the electronics industry agreed to tack on the royalty fee to the blanks, plus set the proper flag on the disc to indicate that it has been paid and would therefore work in an audio-only recorder.
And that's the rest of the story.
Buddha Bart
Diamond Member
this "flag"... I imagine it's 1's and 0's like everything else, is there any way your cdr can set it?
bart
bart
Buddha Bart -
No, unforunately your CD recorder can't change that information.
Sure, it is just 1's and 0's, but they are in the "subcode" of the disc. I think that is in a location on the CD and also part of a data structure that is not writeable by a CD-R drive. It's like the manufacturer's info in that it can be read but not written.
Otherwise, anyone could take data CD-R's (or CD-RW's, for that matter - audio CD-RW's use the same flag) and turn them into audio discs without paying the piper, so to speak. That'd be a handy little home business, wouldn't it?
No, unforunately your CD recorder can't change that information.
Sure, it is just 1's and 0's, but they are in the "subcode" of the disc. I think that is in a location on the CD and also part of a data structure that is not writeable by a CD-R drive. It's like the manufacturer's info in that it can be read but not written.
Otherwise, anyone could take data CD-R's (or CD-RW's, for that matter - audio CD-RW's use the same flag) and turn them into audio discs without paying the piper, so to speak. That'd be a handy little home business, wouldn't it?
WileCoyote
Senior member
workin'-
nothing isn't crackable/hackable - except for dvd. oh... wait 😀
anyway, I doubt this flag protection scheme will last long.
p.s.
(i don't want to get into an argument about what a hacker or cracker really is so i just put both).
nothing isn't crackable/hackable - except for dvd. oh... wait 😀
anyway, I doubt this flag protection scheme will last long.
p.s.
(i don't want to get into an argument about what a hacker or cracker really is so i just put both).
WileCoyote:
It's been out there a few years now. It's kind of hard to crack unless you can press your own CD's. Not burn your own - PRESS them in your CD factory. (The flag is set in a part of the disc that can only be modified at the time the disc is manufactured - they were thinking ahead.) Or unless you can make custom ASIC's for your stand alone CD burner - the protection is in the hardware there. There's no real incentive to crack it anyway - it would be a lot of work to save a dollar or two - and just about any idiot can see that you are much better off using your computer to create music CD's. So, all the people inclined to crack it don't even have a need to, because they are using their computers, and the problem doesn't exist in their world.
BTW, it's not copy protection - the audio bitstream is unchanged, and perfectly copyable - it is "media protection". For all intents and purposes, as far as the stand alone CD burner is concerned, an audio CD-R and a data CD-R are completely different animals. However, as far as your computer is concerned, they are identical.
It's been out there a few years now. It's kind of hard to crack unless you can press your own CD's. Not burn your own - PRESS them in your CD factory. (The flag is set in a part of the disc that can only be modified at the time the disc is manufactured - they were thinking ahead.) Or unless you can make custom ASIC's for your stand alone CD burner - the protection is in the hardware there. There's no real incentive to crack it anyway - it would be a lot of work to save a dollar or two - and just about any idiot can see that you are much better off using your computer to create music CD's. So, all the people inclined to crack it don't even have a need to, because they are using their computers, and the problem doesn't exist in their world.
BTW, it's not copy protection - the audio bitstream is unchanged, and perfectly copyable - it is "media protection". For all intents and purposes, as far as the stand alone CD burner is concerned, an audio CD-R and a data CD-R are completely different animals. However, as far as your computer is concerned, they are identical.
WileCoyote
Senior member
it would be a helluva challenge to bypass it. and hacking isnt about trying to save a buck here or there. its about tinkering, learning, and understanding... and improving.
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