• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Is there nothing that conspiracy theorists won't doubt?

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
I mean...the moon landing, 911, JFK and any news story that comes out, some crackpot makes up a story on how the government did it. I hate the government but I'm not stupid enough to believe that someone got bored and shot a nuke at the Pentagon because the Jews rule the world.

How do these things even get traction let alone attention? I don't get it.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,288
14,706
146
I mean...the moon landing, 911, JFK and any news story that comes out, some crackpot makes up a story on how the government did it. I hate the government but I'm not stupid enough to believe that someone got bored and shot a nuke at the Pentagon because the Jews rule the world.

How do these things even get traction let alone attention? I don't get it.

Sometimes the truth refuses to be covered up.

Remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you!

I LOVE my country...but I FEAR my government.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
While I don't tend to buy into conspiracies, I think it is essential there are people out there who question the normal opinion. Most people are considered crazy until something is somehow proven as true.
 

Sluggo

Lifer
Jun 12, 2000
15,488
5
81
I mean...the moon landing, 911, JFK and any news story that comes out, some crackpot makes up a story on how the government did it. I hate the government but I'm not stupid enough to believe that someone got bored and shot a nuke at the Pentagon because the Jews rule the world.

How do these things even get traction let alone attention? I don't get it.



This post was obviously made by aliens, saw it a mile away.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,890
33,985
136
I'm pretty sure the government did do the moon landing. If someone else did it, the LM would have been plastered with corporate logos, dressed up like a NASCAR ride.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,592
13,808
126
www.anyf.ca
I think lot of the theories are plausible, but that's as far as I go. I don't believe them outright, but I am open to the fact that perhaps something is fishy. Though some of them are just hilarious, like the moon landing. Just like the death and resurrection of Christ, lot of people were not there to witness it, but it does not mean it never happened. Also there is no motive for the government to fake a moon landing. Well maybe pride, but I just can't see the government caring enough about that to actually fake a landing. I'm sure Neil Armstrong wanted to punch anyone in the face when they said it was fake.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories do make me think, but I really don't believe them either. There are a few fishy things about it, but I think it's just people over-thinking and trying to find something to conspire (is that a word?) about.

The government has a bad tenancy of trying to cover up stuff. That makes people skeptical, and then these conspiracy theories are born. Look at the death of Bin Laden. Why did they bring his body in the middle of the ocean without taking any pictures or video, or a sample of his body as proof? That raised lot of questions and there are people who believe the event actually did not happen... now how can the government prove it?
 

tcG

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,202
18
81
It could just as well be asked "Is there nothing that sheeple won't believe?"

Perhaps the world is more deceptive than you imagine.
 

serpretetsky

Senior member
Jan 7, 2012
642
26
101
i love conspiracy theories. Mulling them over and deciding which ones are completely ridiculous and which ones are plausible is fun.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
I mean...the moon landing, 911, JFK and any news story that comes out, some crackpot makes up a story on how the government did it. I hate the government but I'm not stupid enough to believe that someone got bored and shot a nuke at the Pentagon because the Jews rule the world.

How do these things even get traction let alone attention? I don't get it.

:thumbsup:

Would read again.

Could not agree more.
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
Large conspiracies can't stay secret for long. People are not reliable at keeping secrets.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
I think lot of the theories are plausible, but that's as far as I go. I don't believe them outright, but I am open to the fact that perhaps something is fishy. Though some of them are just hilarious, like the moon landing. Just like the death and resurrection of Christ, lot of people were not there to witness it, but it does not mean it never happened. Also there is no motive for the government to fake a moon landing. Well maybe pride, but I just can't see the government caring enough about that to actually fake a landing. I'm sure Neil Armstrong wanted to punch anyone in the face when they said it was fake.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories do make me think, but I really don't believe them either. There are a few fishy things about it, but I think it's just people over-thinking and trying to find something to conspire (is that a word?) about.

The government has a bad tenancy of trying to cover up stuff. That makes people skeptical, and then these conspiracy theories are born. Look at the death of Bin Laden. Why did they bring his body in the middle of the ocean without taking any pictures or video, or a sample of his body as proof? That raised lot of questions and there are people who believe the event actually did not happen... now how can the government prove it?

The best case for the moon landing being real is the simple fact that NASA has never tried to fake it again. Same with 9/11. If the US government blew up the towers to drum up support for a war in Iraq, how come they haven't done it since? Seems like that would be almost mandatory if their goal was the Orwellian notion of perpetual war.

The problem with conspiracy theories is they distract from the real issue at hand. There's plenty of real conspiracies going on that aren't anywhere near as sexy. Such as the MPAA bribing congress to pass SOPA/PIPA, etc. They actually admitted to that one.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,592
13,808
126
www.anyf.ca
Yeah that's the thing if they could have actually faked the moon landing then I'm sure they'd fake mars landing or other moon landings too. Reality is, it was not fake. The RIAA/MPAA stuff I believe fully though, and I think at some point some officials have even admitted it. That whole side of the government is quite corrupt, and same when it comes to oil.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,077
10,556
126
I think lot of the theories are plausible, but that's as far as I go.

Most theories are plausible. If not, no one would believe them. Coincidentally, I just watched a 9/11 film yesterday that dealt with the building's collapse. There's some shady shit going on with that whole thing, and the official investigation. I don't think the official story stands as the full truth.

As far as conspiracies in general go... After the fact, people can analyze evidence with microscopic detail, and there will almost always be something not exactly explained by the official story, and coincidences take on a larger meaning. Photo artifacts, coincidental person locations, chronological anomalies...
 

Itchrelief

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2005
1,398
0
71
It could just as well be asked "Is there nothing that sheeple won't believe?"

Perhaps the world is more deceptive than you imagine.

I take the same view, but apply it towards conspiracy theorists. I mean, it's not like conspiracy theorists aren't inherently better than anyone else, or is that what's actually being said?
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
P&N has one, everything is a conspiracy to him. It's because he's not on the proper dosage of medication, though.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Large conspiracies can't stay secret for long. People are not reliable at keeping secrets.

Yes, they can, actually.

Of course, showing that pretty much needs some being revealed after a good period where they weren't.

Example of one: in the 1970's, Indonesia invaded neighbor East Timoor, using US-supplied weapons that under US law could only be used for defense. 250,000 were killed.

Now, it so happens, they did this one day after President Ford and Henry Kissinger left from a visit; they always claimed that that was a coincidence and Indonesia hid it from them.

Decades later, documents were finally found - thanks, Freedom of Information Act - showing that Ford had approved this illegal violence, and just said to wait until they leave.

This in exchange for things he wanted. 250,000 innocent people traded.

For another example, the most effective UN Secretary General in history was killed in a plane crash said to be an accident. That story held for decades, and it was a major incident - and never was revealed because people can't keep a secret. But science decades later showed the plane had been shot down, IIRC.

For an example of a conspiracy which still hasn't really gotten much public attention, Richare Nixon in 1968, running for President, sabotaged the President's peace talks with Vietnam's two sides because peace would hurt him in the election (and would have prevented it, it turns out). There's some reasonable evidence this was done and how, promising the South Vietnamese things if they rejected any agreement when Nixon took power, but since it's not the 'found a tape recording' type smoking gun, most Americans still don't appreciate the treaon that happened. Speaking of which, Watergate was a conspiracy that held up reasonably well as far as 'people keeping secrets'; it was only people being caught, with a white house contact on a paper on them, that helped break the story - and even then most of the press ignored it; and if Nixon hadn't recorded things such as plotting to pay hush money, with those tapes exposed, many thing Watergate would still be no more than 'rumors' or wrongdoing at high levels, with no more than a low-level aide at fault.

And then there's a conspiracy that Watergate itself was a setup - sabotaged intentionally either as jockying within the administration, or even to bring down Nixon, no one's 'talked'.

Speaking of setups, there's some evidence - not a smoking gun, not a confession fromperpetrators- that the 'security state' intentionally sabotaged the U-2 flight of Gary Power in 1959 in order to prevent the 'peace summit' between the US and USSR, which the incident did. True or not - there was a powerful force in the US government in the 'security state' - recall Eisehower's warning; if you want something more eye-opening, check out a book by the man who was the Pentagon's liason from the Pentagon to the CIA for years, Fletcher Prouty, called 'the secret team'. This guy is a leading figure in 'conspiracy theories' - yet also in a credible position to discuss the history.

(Of course, the U-2 flights themselves were a 'conspiracy theory' the US said the USSR was lying about - until the USSR unexpectedly produced prisoner Gary Powers).

Things we do have good evidence for, for example, are that the CIA treasonously manipulated President Kennedy into the Bay of Pigs, with false assurances the operation would work without US involvement, attempting to get him to approve it expecting that once it started, he couldn't let it fail and would have to approve a US invasion they wanted.
He didn't, and the two top CIA officials found themselves out of work.

(On the same topic, I've read from one of the Cuban leaders of the invasion that they had a secret agreement with the CIA handlers, that if JFK had cancelled the invasion, they'd fake a 'takeover' by the Cubans where they tied up the CIA handlers, and launched the invasion anyway - again treasonous behavior by the CIA).

We know that Kennedy at the time felt that a coup by this security state was possible - and he encouraged, as a warning to the American people, for the book "Seven Days in May" showing a story of that happening to be made into a movie. (The Pentagon resisted the film and refused co-operation; Kennedy arranged for the filmmakers to use the White House for filming).

How about this for a conspiracy theory: When Kennedy took office, the military, under Curtis LeMay, considered the nuclear war plans - which turned out to be a hair-triegger that if there was conventional war between East and West in Europe, where it was very possible over Berlin, then the US would launch an attack on thousands of cities in the USSR and China (China 'just because since we were already attacking') - to be 'theirs' so much that when the Secretary of Defense McNamara said he wanted to see the plans to evaluate them, they refused his request - the plans were none of his business. Sound a bit wild? I heard the story from Robert McNamara personally (and can point you to an online recording of him telling it, if you want).

(In fact, while we're on the military culture in the Kennedy era, at the time each branch had its own intelligence operation, which serve that branch's interests, not the President's. To address this, Kennedy created a new agency, the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency), combining the operations under one agency - headed by a general loyal to Kennedy.

The interesting history of that can be read in a book written by the son of the man who Kennedy selected to head the new agency, James Carroll, in "House of War".)

Of course, all kinds of conspiracy theories are false, all kinds are 'crazy', all kinds are substantiated; some are also 'planted' intended to discredit other theories.

If you'd like some reading to get a better idea on some of this, I can point you to some suggested reading for a taste.

For example, "Mary's Mosaic", about the murder of JFK's lover - who was also the former wife of a high CIA official, and on a 'mission of peace' and interested in exposing the CIA.

Complete with a 'secret diary' from her conversations with JFK, that mysteriously disappeared after she was killed - her former husband having gone after it.

(Speaking of 'conspiracy theories', consider she was one of a group of Washington peace-loving women who wanted to use LSD given to US leaders to help bring peace.)

I had another recommendation, but it slipped my mind while writing - if you ask, I'll try to remember more.

Anyway, it's a complicated issue - but you can't rely on 'people talking'.

Another example - by the time Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon papers,
the US had lied to the American people about Vietnam for years - and they'd all 'kept the secret' until this one person decided, risking life in prison for doing so, the first civilian to have seen the document, to expose the lies to the American people, years later. That's a long time to hide awfully big lies by a lot of people.

Many of the biggest conspiracies that have been exposed are really stories of a lot of people keeping secrets very well, with one exception or a freak accident revealing it.

One last 'conspiracy theory' for you to explain - Johnny Roselli was a central figure close to mob leaders and who had worked with the CIA for years on joint projects. In the late 1970's, Congress re-opened the JFK assassination investigation and subpoenad Roselli to testify. The day before his testimony, he was killed gangland style, reportedly with shots around his mouth as a mob message 'don't talk'. Someone cared enough about his talking about that assassination to kill this central figure this way, the timing linking it to that issue.

While we're on that issue, explain this:

At the height of Watergate, Nixon, to save his presidency, desparately wanted to prevent the FBI - who was no longer loyal to him so that he could tell them not to investigate - from investigating the break-in, and the way he could is if the CIA would tell them to do so for national security reasons.

The CIA was resistant to abuse that power for political coruption. So Nixon wanted to pressure them very badly. What did he use to apply pressure?

He sent his aide with a message - the aide didn't have to understand it - to the director of the CIA saying 'if you don't do this, the whole Bay of Pigs thing can come out'.

Now, we know courtesy of Nixon's loyal Chief of Staff, H. R. Haldemann, that 'Bay of Pigs' was a code phrase Nixon used for the JFK assassination; and that the CIA Directory 'erupted in fury' when given this message and stormedout. So, what was that all about?

Edit: while we're on Nixon, JFK and Cuba, it's hard not to add a bit more history with another story: Nixon had false documents created that he claimed to 'find' in the White House that made it look like the Kennedys had done things that were wrong that they had not done. He released them to the press. But, the press determined that they were fakes.

Save234
 
Last edited:

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
i love conspiracy theories. Mulling them over and deciding which ones are completely ridiculous and which ones are plausible is fun.

Many of the popular conspiracy theories are possible. What is bothersome is those who take "possible" and turn it into "fact" (at least in their heads) and won't let go.

MotionMan
 

dud

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,635
73
91
I mean...the moon landing, 911, JFK and any news story that comes out, some crackpot makes up a story on how the government did it. I hate the government but I'm not stupid enough to believe that someone got bored and shot a nuke at the Pentagon because the Jews rule the world.

How do these things even get traction let alone attention? I don't get it.



Of course ... what about the general disbelief (among the CT here) related to God and Jesus conspiracy theory ...
 
Last edited:

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
The best evidence that the moon landing is real is that the Russians believed it. They have radar, and intercepted our communications. If it had been faked, they would have known.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,837
38
91
I believe in "minor" conspiracies, like a group of high ups conspiring against another group in politics, for money..etc. Our govt hides a lot of things, mostly for diplomatic purposes or covering their ass financially..etc.

As far as a major conspiracy like hiding alien bodies, not landing on the moon...etc. is pure fiction. It would be impossible to keep so many people quiet, people talk way too much and it takes too many people to be involved in such things. You can only cover up and deny so much. Its also too easy to find a conspiracy in any story, i bet we could come up with one by picking out a poster here.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Many of the popular conspiracy theories are possible. What is bothersome is those who take "possible" and turn it into "fact" (at least in their heads) and won't let go.

MotionMan

Some people like to say they have an answer more than they do, and that's a problem, on either side.

One thing to remember, is that having things where there is no conpisracy heavily investigated is useful, to find the few that are - and to help prevent people trying.

If people know there will be scrutiny, they're inhibited from getting caught.

I should probably give some examples of likely conspiracy theories that aren't - there are planty of examples, though not a lot jump to mind, but here's one.

The Post office, as of a 2006 law passed when Republicans controlled the Presidency and Congress, has a crazy requirement to pre-fund 75 years of healthcare benefits.

That requirement is crippling their budget, threatening things like widespread closures and an end to Saturday delivery.

A 'conspiracy theory' that's pretty reasonable is that this is all about the Republicans having the following motives:

- Cripple the post office to help create new opportunities for private delivery companies

- Do it to hurt the unions at the Post office

- Refuse to fix it, because it reinforces their propaganda that 'government doesn't work' and 'they're cutting big government' and the dissatisfaction will hurt Obama.

But, the facts don't fit that as why it was passed. I've spoken to a Postal union official, and to the legislative aide for Congressman Henry Waxman, an excellent congressman, who was involved in the bill's passage, and who has a long history as Congress's leading member at government efficiency issues.

The actual story is that the bill had bi-partisan support, with almost everyone voting for it - and the union's support.

Why vote for it? Because it had important provisions to improve the Post Office, improving efficiency etc.

Why back the provision on healthcare 75 years? Because politics demanded the bill be 'revenue neutral', and this would do that; and at the time of economic boon, it didn't look like it would be a problem. Later, the great recession, and the continuing decline of mail from the internet, reduced revenues where it became a big problem.

Now, the reason Republicans won't FIX the problem today are not good - the things above likely apply more. But the bill wasn't a 'Republican conspiracy' when passed.

Ah, here's one more example.

When JFK was killed, on a bright, sunny, warm day witout any rain, photos show that one person in the crown had an umbrella - which they held closed as the motorcade approached, and which the person opened, as the shooting occured. Clearly, one of the conspirators, signalling the shooters when to shoot. Why else would they have this mysterious umbrella opening?

Except, it was innocent. They found the person, confirmed it was them, and investigated them and determined they were not 'connected to a conspiracy'.

The person was objecting to Kennedy's policies in his own odd way. A coincidence.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I believe in "minor" conspiracies, like a group of high ups conspiring against another group in politics, for money..etc. Our govt hides a lot of things, mostly for diplomatic purposes or covering their ass financially..etc.

As far as a major conspiracy like hiding alien bodies, not landing on the moon...etc. is pure fiction. It would be impossible to keep so many people quiet, people talk way too much and it takes too many people to be involved in such things. You can only cover up and deny so much. Its also too easy to find a conspiracy in any story, i bet we could come up with one by picking out a poster here.

A couple of the larger conspiracies for which there is evidence are:

- FDR's provoking Japan into attacking the US, because he believed the US needed to enter war for our interests. while the public strongly opposed entering.

- Operation Northwoods. The military is in the business of creating all kinds of plans, most of which are never implemented - as I understand it we probably have plans made for war with Canada and England, just in case. But Operation Northwoods is a plan that got so far as to have the Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously approve it and send it to the Secretary and President - who promptly killed it.

It was a document suggesting a variety of 'false flag' operations to create an incident to blame on Castro to justify an invasion of Cuba.

The operations included everything from firing on our own forces at Guantanamo Bay, to domestic terrorism in the US, to a staged downing of a civilian airlines said to be filled with Americans (it's not entirely clear how they'd come up with a 'victim list' that withstood any scrutiny - IIRC, they weren't going to actually down the airline, though they DID have their foreign agents down a civilian airlines involving Cuba and Venezuela, and then harbored the terrorist agents in the US who had done it, and escaped Venezuelan prison).

Of course, things like the Bay of Pigs was a pretty major operation the US tried to hide its role in, very poorly.

Things like the U-2 spy plane program as well were hidden for years - as in a time of high risk of nuclear war, the US sent planes into Soviet airspace intentionally to trigger the air defense systems and collect information looking for weak spots where a nuclear first strike could penetrate defenses.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The best evidence that the moon landing is real is that the Russians believed it. They have radar, and intercepted our communications. If it had been faked, they would have known.

There's all kinds of evidence - and this is one conspiracy where they really couldn't have had countless NASA scientists 'go along' with a fake landing IMO.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Sometimes the truth refuses to be covered up.

Remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you!

I LOVE my country...but I FEAR my government.

Be more afraid of the interests who are trying to dominate our democracy - the Koch brothers and others like them, the massive military industry, etc.