Is there more to it than TWIMTBP? (Personal commentary)

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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
55
91
I'd like to hear from each of you what exactly you think TWIMTBP is. Try to keep the condescention out of it though. No fanboy stuff. Just basic stuff. Then I'll explain about what it actually is. I'm only asking for this because I see a lot of people hear talking about it as if they know, without a doubt, what it is. So, enough is enough. I'll address each comment individually, whether it's accurate, or innacurate.
-Thanks.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
twimtbp is a annoying screen at the beginning of games that i have to sit through. These seconds of my life are lost forever. I weep for the seconds of life slipping away.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
twimtbp is a annoying screen at the beginning of games that i have to sit through. These seconds of my life are lost forever. I weep for the seconds of life slipping away.

I could say the same about your post? *shrugs*
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
I could say the same about your post? *shrugs*

I think keys ask what we though twimtbp was. I don't recall asking you what my posts meant to you. It is the internet though so please give me your opinion. Let us dance and waist each others life 1 second at a time.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
I'd like to hear from each of you what exactly you think TWIMTBP is. Try to keep the condescention out of it though. No fanboy stuff. Just basic stuff. Then I'll explain about what it actually is. I'm only asking for this because I see a lot of people hear talking about it as if they know, without a doubt, what it is. So, enough is enough. I'll address each comment individually, whether it's accurate, or innacurate.
-Thanks.

TWIMTBP is a program from Nvidia for gamer developers to retrofit Nvidia's specific technology into their game and to ensure that the game is optimized for Nvidia product. To do that, TWIMTBP offer hardwares and technical support free for developers. TWIMTBP review game code as well as having on-site engineer to assist development and offer suggestions on how to maximize performance, compatibility or simply make something work on Nvidia product. Sometimes problem may occur on the Nvidia side and Nvidia may adjust their drivers or suggest a walkaround (alternate) to resolve the problem. Developers may apply TWIMTBP while featuring other programs like GITG ("Get in the game" from ATI) and IDP ("Intel Developer Program" from Intel). These programs more or less do the something, and as a result, producing better games with the latest and greatest technology.
 
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Shilohen

Member
Jul 29, 2009
194
0
0
TWIMTBP is a program from Nvidia for gamer developers to retrofit Nvidia's specific technology into their game and to ensure that the game is optimized for Nvidia product. To do that, TWIMTBP offer hardwares and technical support free for developers. TWIMTBP review game code as well as having on-site engineer to assist development and offer suggestions on how to maximize performance, compatibility or simply make something work on Nvidia product. Sometimes problem may occur on the Nvidia side and Nvidia may adjust their drivers or suggest a walkaround (alternate) to resolve the problem. Developers may apply TWIMTBP while featuring other programs like GITG ("Get in the game" from ATI) and IDP ("Intel Developer Program" from Intel). These programs more or less do the something, and as a result, producing better games with the latest and greatest technology.

That, except for

and as a result, producing better games with the latest and greatest technology.

Which I consider an opinion. My own opinion on that part is that those programs become a crutch for the developers, reducing their overall productivity and understanding of the standards, always depending on external experts (be it nVidia's, AMD's or Intel's), thus reducing the overall game quality in the long run.

Regards,
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
0
I'd like to hear from each of you what exactly you think TWIMTBP is. Try to keep the condescention out of it though. No fanboy stuff. Just basic stuff. Then I'll explain about what it actually is. I'm only asking for this because I see a lot of people hear talking about it as if they know, without a doubt, what it is. So, enough is enough. I'll address each comment individually, whether it's accurate, or innacurate.
-Thanks.

What I think it used to be:

A marketing program where in Nvidia gives resources (money or developer/engineer time) to a development company. In return Nvidia gets a splash screen and other ads on the product packaging. They could, in theory, use the resources they give to ensure certain things are put into the games (dx10 in the past, full AA, etc.). But in the end it is/was a marketing initiative to spread the word of how it is meant to be played. With the developer in final control of how the given resources are used.

What it has become:

It is still all about marketing, but now instead of simply giving over resources or cash it seems to also stipulate feature set adherence (for good or bad). Such as "You get our developer support only if you put in (or let us put in) physX". Thus it has become a means for the company to further their proprietary products. Which is similar than before, but I think the focus has shifted from improving the games out right to ensuring features that set Nvidia products apart are used often and to certain standards. I think the focus has also moved away from developer control to "do it our way or not at all." Of course adherence to things is often something that is required.. but does open to door for shadiness.

I also believe the program allows a large possibility for abuse, as discussed until we are blue in the face... It is a program that they would not do if it did not bring them cash monies and how "dark" the program gets really depends on how much money they are trying to force out of it.. In the best case it is a marketing initiative that helps games in general and is brand neutral to all features that are supported across other platforms, though it is simple enough to abuse it into something that attempts to crush the competition with no real way for any end user to be sure which is going on at any given time. In the worst case I can understand how many see this as akin to bribing a company to do what you want.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
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twimtbp is a annoying screen at the beginning of games that i have to sit through. These seconds of my life are lost forever. I weep for the seconds of life slipping away.

That's a really good point. (serious) It _is_ an annoying screen I have to sit through.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,745
1,036
126
My spin. (I did not read a post past Keys so if I repeat what's been said tough cookies)

The good.

What it should be.

Part educational. Showing developers the tricks of the trade, providing examples and explaining what various routines will do and how they are executed on the card. Often a list of best practices for each generation.

Part quality control. Analyzing builds, profiling, and optimizing. If something weird is going on that is stalling the pipeline get that information back to the developer with advice on how to avoid it.

Part symbiotic. Providing kits and such to shorten the above feedback loop and speed up the development process.

The bad.

What seems to have been injected. Marketing, coercion, sabotage, etc. When activities focus on your competition and not your own product, you've crossed the line. You should acknowledge the differences/advantages/shortcomings of all products but never go as far as to stifle them.
 

Wreckage

Banned
Jul 1, 2005
5,529
0
0
TWIMTBP is a program to improve PC gaming. Simple as that.

It's probably keeping PC gaming alive. Especially with so many games being ported to the PC instead of the other way around these days.
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,665
5
81
my spin. (i did not read a post past keys so if i repeat what's been said tough cookies)

the good.

What it should be.

Part educational. Showing developers the tricks of the trade, providing examples and explaining what various routines will do and how they are executed on the card. Often a list of best practices for each generation.

Part quality control. Analyzing builds, profiling, and optimizing. If something weird is going on that is stalling the pipeline get that information back to the developer with advice on how to avoid it.

Part symbiotic. Providing kits and such to shorten the above feedback loop and speed up the development process.

The bad.

What seems to have been injected. Marketing, coercion, sabotage, etc. When activities focus on your competition and not your own product, you've crossed the line. You should acknowledge the differences/advantages/shortcomings of all products but never go as far as to stifle them.

qft
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
0
My spin. (I did not read a post past Keys so if I repeat what's been said tough cookies)

The good.

What it should be.

Part educational. Showing developers the tricks of the trade, providing examples and explaining what various routines will do and how they are executed on the card. Often a list of best practices for each generation.

Part quality control. Analyzing builds, profiling, and optimizing. If something weird is going on that is stalling the pipeline get that information back to the developer with advice on how to avoid it.

Part symbiotic. Providing kits and such to shorten the above feedback loop and speed up the development process.

The bad.

What seems to have been injected. Marketing, coercion, sabotage, etc. When activities focus on your competition and not your own product, you've crossed the line. You should acknowledge the differences/advantages/shortcomings of all products but never go as far as to stifle them.

I agree, but the fact of the matter is that without strong marketing aspects the program would be drastically different. I'd prefer they simply use it to ensure things work the way they are supposed to.. but that is not the reality of this world. Without the in your face BS of the splash screens etc. I don't feel they would bother with the program at all.


As to saving PC gaming as pointed out by wreckage.. get real.

How many people own a PC? Those numbers are keeping it alive.. We are going to have to deal with the changing of the gaming market.. but all the ways it is meant to be played in the world won't stop devs from cross developing for consoles, and it won't stop or force games form being ported to the PC.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
That, except for



Which I consider an opinion. My own opinion on that part is that those programs become a crutch for the developers, reducing their overall productivity and understanding of the standards, always depending on external experts (be it nVidia's, AMD's or Intel's), thus reducing the overall game quality in the long run.

Regards,
Programming nowaday is much more complicated than you think. There is a big distance between "an idea" to "a product" and not "depending on external experts" will probably won't get you anywhere far. Try to compute Pi without using computer, calculator, paper or pen and see when can you get to the 1 millionth digits if you still don't understand what I mean.

Must I be a billion heir to write a game? Right now I can start within my house It may take me several years to produce anything presentable to get funding. After that I may need to hire some experts to handle varies parts of the game. By this time the original code probably have been obsoleted by newer hardwares. Any funding will be near depleted by the time I get a publisher, and at the end my game will be a "below standard" graphic and crashes like no tomorrow crap. Is this what you called, benefit?

The existence of game engine is good, although functions are limited, I can put together something in 100th of the time. Then programs like TWIMTBP may aid me on putting something into the game so at the end my crap will at least run with decent graphics. After I got a publisher I may choose to feature some other engines that I don't have a clue with because I have advance from external experts to further reduce the cost of development. Yes, I may have to retrofit some special features into my game, but how is it a bad thing? "Thank you" is a word you use when you really can not do anything else to return the favor. I see putting a splash screen for those who helped as well as adding some vendor specific feature is far better than just saying "Thank You". I can have my product run only on the vendors that offered my help to show my appreciation if I can, but my publisher will like that.

Rocksteady was very small and I bet that no more than 5 people in this forum even know its existence before Batman AA. Without those programs, Batman AA will just be seen as another "subpar game from a movie hoping to be sold because of the name." With it however, it was sold as "A game featuring PhysX, 3D, and optimized on Nvidia" as well as the Batman name. Did ATI user buy the game? Yeah. Did it run on ATI hardware? Yeah. So how is it bad for Rocksteady again?

Sorry to break it out to you, but all companies are trying to maximize profit. ATI will have done the something if they have the funding. Too bad AMD don't see it the way ATI sees it, letting Nvidia dominates most gaming development. Does ATI have their own version of PhysX? Yes, but no one knows how to use it and ATI don't have the funding to send engineers out the way Nvidia did. One way to fight this battle is to introduce ATI specific technology and do the exact something Nvidia did. At the end, some games work best with Nvidia, some work best on ATI, and some work best if you have both. Yeah, it hurts customer's wallet, but that is what capitalism is about.

Regardless of what PR rep saids, AMD wants ATI to produce video cards that support existing tech, nothing more. By reducing extra cost they can sell their video card at a lower price, which is also a good tactics as it sales. However, I fail to see how this is helping the gaming industry. Do I blame them? No, cheap is good, very good. This simple reason allow more people to experience high-end graphics at lower cost, increasing the demand of gaming experience and demand. Once upon a time monthly free is just stupid, but not anymore. Expansion every few months is okay, playing multiple online games is okay.

The key disadvantage to ATI is the video card technology is not driven by them, but by microsoft and Nvidia. lending towards MS is smart as Nvidia also needs to lend against it. The fact ATI released the first Dx11 card is a fact. Sit back while watching how Nvidia fights against Dx11 domination without spending more than PR is just cleaver.

There are so much more than just meets the eye.
 
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Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,745
1,036
126
I agree, but the fact of the matter is that without strong marketing aspects the program would be drastically different.

That would be a bad thing? There is nothing wrong with marketing as long as it stays out of the development process. Lets be honest here, marketing people aren't exactly ethical, despite the fact that they are a crucial part of the industry.

I'd prefer they simply use it to ensure things work the way they are supposed to.. but that is not the reality of this world. Without the in your face BS of the splash screens etc. I don't feel they would bother with the program at all.

I have no problem with the splash screens. You're kidding yourself if you think they wouldn't bother, the company wants what's best for the industry/their company, too bad they often get caught up in what's worst for the industry, artificially stifling of the competition.
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
0
That would be a bad thing? There is nothing wrong with marketing as long as it stays out of the development process. Lets be honest here, marketing people aren't exactly ethical, despite the fact that they are a crucial part of the industry.
Not a bad thing at all, a great thing if it went well.. But it is my oppinion that "differnt" in this case would be nvidia desciding not to bother at all.


I have no problem with the splash screens. You're kidding yourself if you think they wouldn't bother, the company wants what's best for the industry/their company, too bad they often get caught up in what's worst for the industry, artificially stifling of the competition.

I think it has gone from something they do to help the industry (at least keep it afloat) into something they do solely to make cash (which is fine I suppose). The developer relationships will continue in order to ensure games work on cards, drivers have optimizations etc. But I'm not sure that they would care too much to drop extra money into something if there were no fancy "we are great" logos. Quiet has never been an nvidia thing. The program is and of itself a marketing tool, they talked to devs before it and would after for sure.. but ona much smaller scale. Is that bad? Well, I don't know if it is.. certainly it is possible that devs only put in new dx features becasue of ati/nvidia money.. but I really doubt it.


I just feel that the whole thing is about marketing, that they could care less about what it does for good or ill if they make cash out of it. I'm not sold that if the in your face aspects of it were gone they would bother much beyond ensuring drivers work. But I hope they prove me wrong, would be great for the industry if things were pushed ahead a bit in an ethical manner.
 
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Shilohen

Member
Jul 29, 2009
194
0
0
Programming nowaday is much more complicated than you think. There is a big distance between "an idea" to "a product" and not "depending on external experts" will probably won't get you anywhere far. Try to compute Pi without using computer, calculator, paper or pen and see when can you get to the 1 millionth digits if you still don't understand what I mean.

I don't get the analogy... at all.

... <mostly valid points> ...
Well, right now I'm working on a Web application that's reaching into the multi hundredth of thousands lines of code if not millions (didn't run any nloc calculation tool lately) and using about twenty times as more locs from library of various vendors so dealing with complexity, I know about. Now let make an analogy between Web vs game:

Standards
Web: W3C (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, DOM), WAI
Games: OpenGL, DirectX

Platform
Web: ASP.NET, PHP, JSF, RoR, etc.
Games: Unreal engine, Crystal Tool, etc.

Extra features
Web: ActiveX, etc.
Games: PhysX, etc.

Note that I didn't use an exhaustive list, it's not really useful to make my point anyway, I just want to focus on MS IE.

In the early days of Internet, standards were not really set yet and web pages/applications had to be developed anyway. So MS crated the ActiveX to add rich content and gladly helped developers take advantages of that feature. People started using it, the standards emerged, but MS IE was so dominant that people still used ActiveX and MS IE didn't implement the standard correctly.

Then new browsers emerged, with way better features for the end users, better performances, better security and better standard support. MS started losing browser market shares... steadily.

After that, MS tried to improve IE's standard support, but to this day it's still abysmal when testing the latest standards: try ACID test in IE 6, ACID 2 in IE 7, ACID 3 in IE 8 and think that many users still use IE 6.

Now what does it change? MS still made a lot of money, those who developed the initial application still made a lot of profit. However, what most people don't know is that it now get incredibly expensive to create a Web application working on all browser, or should I say working on all browsers + IE, imho much more money that was initially gained by the companies that profited from the early ActiveX. I don't have the exact amount on my current project, but my estimate is around 500k of direct cost overhaul and about 10k from increased license cost because the libraries had to be developed to support IE as well and thus have to spread the overhaul on their customers. Multiply that by the amount of projects, and you get a tremendous amount.

Now let get back to the game industry, is their any wisdom to get from the Web experience? Let say developers just say thank you to whoever gives "free" help, whatever the consequences/costs (not financial) are. Let imagine for example that PhysX indeed gets ridiculously popular, and that nVidia gets up to 95&#37; of the market shares while OpenPhysics get developed on the side. Now let imagine that nVidia products start lagging behind competition... seriously and that nVidia, content with their position and believing they can drive the industry, refuses to completely/correctly implement OpenPhysics. Then ATI and/or Intel get back up in the game with way better products and perfect OpenPhysics support and get back market shares, but nVidia so stuck with their idea still won't implement the standard correctly, but users really want physic effects in all their games now. What will it cost to develop games then, having to create two code branches for every single of them? Would that really help the game industry in the long run?

Of course, the above scenario is relatively far fetched and hypothetical, but how is TWIMTBP not pushing directly in that direction in the long run? For the short term effect, I think I can agree with you as long as it does not introduce debilitating/disruptive effects like in Batman:AA, the game created do get some nice "extras". However, in the long run, I think it avails to no good for the end users who, of course, end up with the bill a way or another.


Regards
 
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Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
...
Regards
I see your point, and feel the same pain. May I ask you this, what if Microsoft sends free hardware into your company right now plus several engineers visiting you on-site every week as well as review your code and suggest solutions to solve your problems. Now they don't ask you do bias on anything but do suggest you to use some of the IE specific features that Google do not have. They will QA your apps on there side if it is actually cause by bugs in IE, for free, and may fix the problem at their side. At the end, your web apps runs on all platforms, but with some extra functions exclusively on IE, and faster through IE.

Now google lovers step in and say this program Microsoft offers does nothing but to block and break stuffs from other vendors, and you are so lazy not to do it yourself. How will you feel?

Only if such things exists...

Edit:
Extra features
Web: ActiveX, etc.
Games: PhysX, etc.

Extra features
Web: ActiveX, etc.
Games: DirectX, etc.

Now let get back to the game industry, is their any wisdom to get from the Web experience? Let say developers just say thank you to whoever gives "free" help, whatever the consequences/costs (not financial) are. Let imagine for example that DirectX indeed gets ridiculously popular, and that Window based OS gets up to 95&#37; of the market shares while OpenGL/OpenCL get developed on the side. Now let imagine that DirectX 9 products start lagging behind competition... seriously and that microsoft, content with their position and believing they can drive the industry, refuses to completely/correctly implement OpenGL/OpenCL. Then ATI and/or Nvidia get back up in the game with way better products and perfect OpenGL/CL support and get back market shares, but Microsoft so stuck with their idea still won't implement the standard correctly created Dx10 by changing Nvidia's and ATI's standard, but users really want to play good games knowing that their video card rocks, then there comes Dx11. What will it cost to develop games then, having to create two code branches for every single of them? Would that really help the game industry in the long run?
Yeah, those with Dx11 hardware are /point /laugth /ignore those who are stuck with Dx10 card. What is new? Who gives a s**t? ATI simply ride the Dx11 train, forcing Nvidia to follow.
"I support Tessellation through hardware..." said ATI
"We do too with Fermi..." said Nvidia.
Domination? Microsoft don't give a s**t to PhysX but interested in CUDA, so here comes DirectCompute. If they are interested in PhysX, there will be DirectPhysics. The problem is, 5k for a course, 2k for an exam for what developers already know, in another syntax. GG.

So what about the gaming industry? well just like the web apps industry. The only difference is the existance of programs like TWIMTBP, that helps those who couldn't get the ride. Developers must choose either to use an obsoleted platform Directx 9, use a buggy platform Directx 10, or use a new platform Directx 11, which they don't have the hardware.

We may have different opinion against Nvidia, but I am 99% sure we have the same opinion against Microsoft.
 
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Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,745
1,036
126
Now let get back to the game industry, is their any wisdom to get from the Web experience? Let say developers just say thank you to whoever gives "free" help, whatever the consequences/costs (not financial) are. Let imagine for example that PhysX indeed gets ridiculously popular, and that nVidia gets up to 95&#37; of the market shares while OpenPhysics get developed on the side. Now let imagine that nVidia products start lagging behind competition... seriously and that nVidia, content with their position and believing they can drive the industry, refuses to completely/correctly implement OpenPhysics. Then ATI and/or Intel get back up in the game with way better products and perfect OpenPhysics support and get back market shares, but nVidia so stuck with their idea still won't implement the standard correctly, but users really want physic effects in all their games now. What will it cost to develop games then, having to create two code branches for every single of them? Would that really help the game industry in the long run?

Now let get back to the game industry, is their any wisdom to get from the Web experience? Let say developers just say thank you to whoever gives "free" help, whatever the consequences/costs (not financial) are. Let imagine for example that DirectX indeed gets ridiculously popular, and that Window based OS gets up to 95% of the market shares while OpenGL/OpenCL get developed on the side. Now let imagine that DirectX 9 products start lagging behind competition... seriously and that microsoft, content with their position and believing they can drive the industry, refuses to completely/correctly implement OpenGL/OpenCL. Then ATI and/or Nvidia get back up in the game with way better products and perfect OpenGL/CL support and get back market shares, but Microsoft so stuck with their idea still won't implement the standard correctly created Dx10 by changing Nvidia's and ATI's standard, but users really want to play good games knowing that their video card rocks, then there comes Dx11. What will it cost to develop games then, having to create two code branches for every single of them? Would that really help the game industry in the long run?

WTH the edits are enough that I can't tell who is saying what.

Moving on.

With regards to directx11 code paths. When XP falls off the face of the earth we will be left with a simpler model. I look forward to the day when I can use the Downlevel Hardware of DirectX11 to simplify the code path.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
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WTH the edits are enough that I can't tell who is saying what.

Moving on.

With regards to directx11 code paths. When XP falls off the face of the earth we will be left with a simpler model. I look forward to the day when I can use the Downlevel Hardware of DirectX11 to simplify the code path.
Dx8, Dx9, Dx9c, Dx10, Dx10.1, Dx11
Dx11.3, Dx11.7, Dx12, Dx12c, Dx13 ...
Yes win 7 may run them all, but not your video card. Buy, buy, buy brothers.
 

Shilohen

Member
Jul 29, 2009
194
0
0
I see your point, and feel the same pain. May I ask you this, what if Microsoft sends free hardware into your company right now plus several engineers visiting you on-site every week as well as review your code and suggest solutions to solve your problems.

Which is exactly what they did, it's kind of the whole point of the analogy, else it would only be whining about how much IE sucks and there are better place to do that than a video card forum.

Extra features
Web: ActiveX, etc.
Games: DirectX, etc.

ActiveX != standard, DirectX == standard, PhysX != standard


Yeah, those with Dx11 hardware are /point /laugth /ignore those who are stuck with Dx10 card. What is new? Who gives a s**t? ATI simply ride the Dx11 train, forcing Nvidia to follow.

Actually, DX 11 is much more friendlier than other DX version with older version. That argument makes no sense at all. To take back a Web analogy, it's like saying that HTML 5 and CSS 3 are stupid because they're screwing older browser users...

Domination? Microsoft don't give a s**t to PhysX but interested in CUDA, so here comes DirectCompute. If they are interested in PhysX, there will be DirectPhysics. The problem is, 5k for a course, 2k for an exam for what developers already know, in another syntax. GG.

Agree and disagree. The course is never required to use the technology. However, they're indeed expensive. You could also reverse the problem and say that it should always have been part of the standard from the beginning. Microsoft is not alone in its ivory tower when it comes to define the new version of DirectX, but I guess this is where ATI is doing a slightly better job than nVidia. Of course, ATI is more about open standard while nVidia prefer to tax their features.


So what about the gaming industry? well just like the web apps industry. The only difference is the existance of programs like TWIMTBP, that helps those who couldn't get the ride. Developers must choose either to use an obsoleted platform Directx 9, use a buggy platform Directx 10, or use a new platform Directx 11, which they don't have the hardware.

No difference, Microsoft's Gold Partnership, Oracle's, Sun's, etc. However, at least, for the end user part, the proprietary solutions no longer have any momentum. The gaming industry is a hard one, but it's a profitable one (except for EA), they would manage.

We may have different opinion against Nvidia, but I am 99&#37; sure we have the same opinion against Microsoft.

Microsoft is doing way better lately: Windows 7 development involved the various vendor, IE's slowly starting to improve, the EU ruling about browsers helps as well... 3 or 4 years ago, however, we would totally agree.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
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ActiveX != standard, DirectX == standard, PhysX != standard...
Mac will like to have a word with you about standard.

Although I may not agree with everything you said, I can live with your opinion and point of view.

There are things that is right in Dx 11, after all that was wrong in Dx10. What I hate about Dx 11 is that ATI does support tessellation, and both vendors support GPU compute. Why do we need to buy another card to use these features on our existing card is beyond me. MS could have retrofit workarounds within Dx10 and make it work instead of to force vendors to change their design.

Now back to Nvidia, not only it supports what is the norm, referring Dx and openGL, it also features some of their own tricks. The only way out is by sending their own ppl to implement them, at the same time helping developers to code. Unlike browser, games featuring TWIMTBP won't crash on ATI's hardware. It isn't Nvidia's fault that UE3 can't support MSAA through Dx9. Nvidia made it possible and we as a customer can support it by buying their product, or not. Either way is okay. But turn it around and cry for foul is not.

Microsoft is doing way better lately: Windows 7 development involved the various vendor, IE's slowly starting to improve, the EU ruling about browsers helps as well... 3 or 4 years ago, however, we would totally agree.
Then we are on opposite sides of the shore. Hope to see you again on the mobile apps.
 
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Shilohen

Member
Jul 29, 2009
194
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0
Mac will like to have a word with you about standard.

Absolutely true, should be a single standard on all OS, you can add Linux to that list as well.

What I hate about Dx 11 is that ATI does support tessellation, and both vendors support GPU compute. Why do we need to buy another card to use these features on our existing card is beyond me. MS could have retrofit workarounds within Dx10 and make it work instead of to force vendors to change their design.

Very fair point.

Now back to Nvidia, not only it supports what is the norm, referring Dx and openGL, it also features some of their own tricks. The only way out is by sending their own ppl to implement them, at the same time helping developers to code. Unlike browser, games featuring TWIMTBP won't crash on ATI's hardware. It isn't Nvidia's fault that UE3 can't support MSAA through Dx9. Nvidia made it possible and we as a customer can support it by buying their product, or not. Either way is okay. But turn it around and cry for foul is not.

Ok here's where I might differ from other posters and get closer to you. I could accept that AA would work only on nVidia hardware, if nVidia had provided the code and it would have been something else than a vendor id lock. Then it would simply have been an enhancement for nVidia hardware, not a general solution explicitly locked on other hardware. However, not only did they lock it, but from an article I read, the performance overhaul of AA was still sent on ATI cards even if then blocked, thus reducing its performance level. This is where I draw the line of acceptable (even if it hurt it in the long run imho), no obstruction (vendor id lock), no debilitation (hinder the competition). nVidia has shown enough genius already to be able to create awesome products, they shouldn't need dirty tricks.


Then we are on opposite sides of the shore. Hope to see you again on the mobile apps.

Yes, or when cloud computing gets us all.
 
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Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
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Ok here's where I might differ from other posters and get closer to you. I could accept that AA would work only on nVidia hardware, if nVidia had provided the code and it would have been something else than a vendor id lock. Then it would simply have been an enhancement for nVidia hardware, not a general solution explicitly locked on other hardware. However, not only did they lock it, but from an article I read, the performance overhaul of AA was still sent on ATI cards even if then blocked, thus reducing its performance level. This is where I draw the line of acceptable (even if it hurt it in the long run imho), no obstruction (vendor id lock), no debilitation (hinder the competition). nVidia has shown enough genius already to be able to create awesome products, they shouldn't need dirty tricks.
Review from Anandtech
Without AA, 5870 have 102 FPS, 196 under CF. Nvidia 285 have 85 FPS, 160 under SLI.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...iew/page14.asp
Even with 4xFSAA 5870 have 78.4 FPS, Nvidia 285 have 75.1

Now you can crossover the performance variation against this different games to see if there is something fishy about the performance. As to the MSAA part, you can find it in this thread.

FSAA works fine for both vendors, as you can see the FPS is very playable and the quality may even be better than MSAA. However, MSAA through UE3 engine was coded, QAed and licensed by Nvidia, for Nvidia user. It is true that there is a performance difference between FSAA and MSAA, the exact same code developed by Nvidia does appear to work on ATI hardware too, and a few ATI users are upset about it being exclusive to Nvidia users. ATI claims they are working on their version of MSAA with Eidos, but no promise that they will deliver.

What really got blocked is the cross vendor setup, where a user use a ATI card as primary display while having a cheap Nvidia to do PhysX. Nvidia released a new driver that prevent such setup to enable PhysX.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
55
91
twimtbp is a annoying screen at the beginning of games that i have to sit through. These seconds of my life are lost forever. I weep for the seconds of life slipping away.

I can't tell if you're joking about this or not, but in case you're serious, think of those few seconds compared to the time you waste gaming. Sure, gaming is great entertainment, but you can't tell me that you don't think gamers don't spend a good portion of their days sitting in front of a virtual gaming world, just eating up their lives.

I feel that way sometimes, so I take a little "vacation" from gaming once in a while and do things that need to get done. But a few seconds for a TWIMTBP logo?

And finally, TWIMTBP logo isn't there just to annoy you. It comes up to advertise, yes, advertise, that this game has gone through pretty extensive dev relations to work out any bugs on Nvidia side, or software side.

Despite the popular belief, NO money changes hands between devs and Nvidia. They aren't sitting there writing checks out to each other to simply have a TWIMTBP logo in a game, or for a selling point for a dev. There is a marketing aspect to this program. But for those people who think thats ALL it is, they are very misinformed.

The marketing, is having gamers know that a particular game has been THROUGH the TWIMTBP process. Man hours/months/years have gone into the game to make sure it is the best it could be in the critical time alloted before a game goes gold.

So you see a splash screen in a game, or a logo on a game box. Nvidia has a perfect right to show a gamer, that they have put extra effort into a game to make it better than it was, being debugging, feature improvement, added content as we've seen with Batman AA and other games.

Some people truly believe that TWIMTBP creates artificial performance hits on competitor hardware. Make it play worse on the competitors hardware to make themselves look better. We'll, how can this be said when some games play even better on competitors hardware that have TWIMTBP affiliation? All depends on the hardware and what hardware likes certain games better.

Batman:AA Antialiasing. This was something of a smear campaign against Nvidia. It was a perfect opportunity to call foul and create the illusion of foul play on Nvidias part.
I have spoken with the team who actually worked on Batman and added the AA content.
While they were working on it, they weren't considering that fact that they would be severely attacked publicly for it. They just added their code. Tested that code on all their hardware with the dev. They put the ID check there because they knew it would work fine on their hardware. NOT to prevent ATI hardware from using it. There was simply an "IF THEN" algorithm. IF ID = Nvidia, THEN run the code. IF ID = OTHER, Use standard game config.

So, this blew up beyond imagination. Nvidia was trying to make something better, despite the belief's and smear campaign that was slung.

AMD's smear campaign is vast. They have really amped things up over the last year or so.
It's good for their business to show NV is the worst possible light. I'm pretty much speaking to the neutral folks in here. Not to those who will spend much of their time arguing what I posted here, calling it lies, PR, Marketing, BS.

What I posted here was my knowledge acquired after speaking directly with the TWIMTBP team. There was no intention to "BLOCK" features in Batman:AA. Only to "ENABLE" features with and Nvidia card ID check to run their AA code. It is VERY easy, to confuse these.
Like saying the glass is half full, or half empty.

As far a money exchanging hands in TWIMTBP program. There is. It is for game box logos. For advertising and showing off what Nvidia has done and is doing with the program.

NO money ever exchanges hands from either a dev, or Nvidia for using TWIMTBP resources.
This was stated emphatically by the team.

Yes, it costs Nvidia money to send hardware, and programmers to devs to work with them.
But Nvidia never just says, "Hey Eidos, we want your next game to have a TWIMTBP logo splash screen on it. Here's a check for you. Keep it quiet and you'll get more later."
This.... doesn't.... happen....

I hope this clears some things up. Some misconceptions. It's a great program and untold amounts of man hours and effort goes into it. It's an initiative by NV to make sure things work the best they can for gamers.

Keys