Is there more to it than TWIMTBP? (Personal commentary)

[thilanliyan]

You're right. AMD doesn't do anything to work with developers. :/
http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/interviews/2010/01/06/interview-amd-on-game-development-and-dx11/1

No no haven't you heard...that's all PR spin. ATI doesn't do anything they just pick up the scraps that nVidia leave behind. :sneaky:

 

[PingviN]

Also AA does work in Batman on ATI cards, so this is just another ATI fan rant with zero substance. Hopefully Fermi will push NVIDIA up to 80% markeshare or more so that PC gaming will continue to be supported.

Well, forcing AA through Catalyst isn't the same thing. If you force AA, it will AA EVERYTHING, resulting in a performance hit you wouldnt get with proper MSAA. Only an ignorant fanboy would think that Nvidia putting their IP on a standard DirectX-feature is a good thing.

 

[evolucion8]

Please, don't feed the trollckage...

Seero, I was able to activate Anti Aliasing with Batman AA using the DeviceID changer in ATi Tray tool, fooling Batman AA thinking that I owned a GTX 260. It's pretty easy and shows that nVidia is simply a marketing company that loves anti competitive practices, Period.

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/interviews/2010/01/06/interview-amd-on-game-development-and-dx11/1 << Is an eye opener.

 

[crisium]

As much as TWIMTBP annoys me, I have to admit it works for Nvidia. The GeForce name is strong, and a lot of casual PC gamers will ask "What GeForce card should I buy?". Then when I show them the price-to-performance ratio for their price point and they see that ATi wins, they are shocked. They then buy the ATi, but so many people are misinformed.

They see that the GTX 285 costs more than a 5850... so they think it's faster. Nvidia has an image of a superior product with their higher price point. But they really just charge more than it's worth, unless you think Physx is better than DX11.

 

[soccerballtux]

Of course anti-competitive practice work....

 

[Seero]

Please, don't feed the trollckage...

Seero, I was able to activate Anti Aliasing with Batman AA using the DeviceID changer in ATi Tray tool, fooling Batman AA thinking that I owned a GTX 260. It's pretty easy and shows that nVidia is simply a marketing company that loves anti competitive practices, Period.

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/interviews/2010/01/06/interview-amd-on-game-development-and-dx11/1 << Is an eye opener.

Did you even read what you have quoted?

Who is Richard Huddy?

Richard Huddy is AMD&#8217;s Worldwide Developer Relations manager.

What does he do?

Make PR speeches.

bit-tech: Given Nvidia licensed its own MSAA technology for Unreal Engine 3, why don't you just do the same thing? Put your code in as well and when the game detects your vendor ID it uses this code instead.

We're currently working with Eidos and we want that to be in there in a future update. That's not a commitment to it, but we are working with Eidos to make it happen because I believe it's in every consumer&#8217;s interest.

Who owns the code that make MSAA possible through Batman AA?

Nvidia. They licensed.

Why can't ATI user use it?
ATI is still working on it, but it is not a commitment.

Did he lied?

For starters, it's (referring to Batman AA) a DirectX 9 title ... (Nvidia) added MSAA support that uses standard DirectX calls ...

According to Tim Sweeney, the creator of UE3:

UE3 does not support MSAA on Windows DirectX 9, because UE3's use of deferred shadowing and post-processing techniques requires explicit support for frame buffer resolves, which DirectX9 lacks.

Source

If Tim is not reliable, google "UE3 AA" and dig into it.

 

[Seero]

Excuse my ignorance of the TWIMTBP program or the ati one, but is it normal for developers/studio's to accept pieces of code to put into a game without also being able to take ownership of said code so that they can modify it if the need arises.

Using a piece of code that developers don't have ownership is not uncommon in the programming world. They must however have the permission from the owner of that piece of code to use that piece of code to begin with, and must have permission from the owner of that piece of code to sale their work. As to Batman AA, they need to pay EPIC for using their game engine UE3.

If you play online games, then you must have seen EULA before. You may not have read it before, but you clicked "agreed" to it. Within the EULA, it will have stated about ownership and that the owner can change whatever that they feel like, whenever they want it. If you don't agree, then you can't play the game even if you have paid it. That is why "gold selling" is illegal in online games because gold seller makes profit with codes that doesn't belongs and/or have no permission to them. If you don't play the way they want you to with the game, then they have the right to ban you. Now of course if you can prove that you suffer damage and/or lost by playing this game, you can sue the game company, but the EULA may have covered that also.

Im no programmer and dont have any experice in the field at all, but from observing mmorpg patches it seems like almost any code can be a problem when you start patching things, wouldnt a developer/studio insist on having the rights to do with the code what they please before actually putting it into a release product? I suppose that a game like batman isnt really made expecting major patches but it still seems like a very odd practice to me.

The piece of code that we are talking about is not in the game code. The game runs perfectly fine without it. It is a feature that Nvidia offers, which isn't something standard as others claimed to be. In fact, Nvidia must QA this code on their behave because it really has nothing to do with Rocksteady. If it breaks, then Nvidia will have to fix it. If Nvidia fail to do so, then Eidos/Rocksteady will have to disable it.

 

[evolucion8]

If Tim is not reliable, google "UE3 AA" and dig into it.

Don't lecture me kid, I already know that UE3 uses deferred rendering for its shadows and post effects, and that the only way to add anti aliasing is through DX10 path. But can you care to explain why Mirrors Edge has an Anti Aliasing control panel? Or you will evade the questions conveniently just like your copy cat Wreckage?

 

[Voo]

If you play online games, then you must have seen EULA before. You may not have read it before, but you clicked "agreed" to it. Within the EULA, it will have stated about ownership and that the owner can change whatever that they feel like, whenever they want it. If you don't agree, then you can't play the game even if you have paid it. That is why "gold selling" is illegal in online games because gold seller makes profit with codes that doesn't belongs and/or have no permission to them. If you don't play the way they want you to with the game, then they have the right to ban you. Now of course if you can prove that you suffer damage and/or lost by playing this game, you can sue the game company, but the EULA may have covered that also.

Though you shouldn't forget that although you can write anything into an EULA, this doesn't mean that everything in it is legal or could be prosecuted.


@evolucion8: And why are you that sure that EA didn't implement AA themselves?

 

[Lonbjerg]

I would like to see him document this statement:

When they bought Ageia, they had a fairly respectable multicore implementation of PhysX.

All the demos in AGEIA's PhysX rocket (when running in software mode) where singletreaded.

Come to think of it I have never seen an AGEIA PhysX game/demo that wasn't singletread PhysX?
That includes the AGEIA driver panel, Cellfactor, GRAW ect.

 

[Seero]

Don't lecture me kid, I already know that UE3 uses deferred rendering for its shadows and post effects, and that the only way to add anti aliasing is through DX10 path. But can you care to explain why Mirrors Edge has an Anti Aliasing control panel? Or you will evade the questions conveniently just like your copy cat Wreckage?

I don't know why you came to a conclusion that I tried to lecture you, but since you are saying it this way, I may as well do so.

First, keep bullying Wreckage will get yourself banned. You will learn this one way or the other. Second, Wreckage may be bias towards Nvidia on some occasions, but is nothing compare to you as you even use an ATI icon as your picture. If what he said is not worth a dime, then yours don't worth a penny. Third, the MSAA implementation was done by DICE and published by EA, neither ATI or Nvidia owns that piece of code. In fact, they may not even have access to that it. Because of that, although DICE have already made MSAA possible to games that features UE3, both Nvidia and ATI must build their own version of it if they want to make MSAA possible through other games. Forth, Mirror Edge also features a game engine called "Beast", which may or may not be the reason why MSAA was possible. TWIMTBP was also part of the development of Mirror Edge, but doesn't own anything in this case and the actual code was not made by Nvidia.

Though you shouldn't forget that although you can write anything into an EULA, this doesn't mean that everything in it is legal or could be prosecuted.

You are right. There are things that EULA covers legitimately, and there are things that are BS. I was simply trying to point out the simplest form of License(permission) agreement , and the fact of featuring code that user don't have ownership to.

 

[Wreckage]

But can you care to explain why Mirrors Edge has an Anti Aliasing control panel?

Do all games using Unreal 3 get an AA panel and suddenly Batman was different? Or did many get released with out AA at all?

Such a giant mountain out of such a tiny mole hill. I think you guys are just pushing people to buy NVIDIA simply because they don't want to listen to this crap anymore.

 

[Forumpanda]

Such a giant mountain out of such a tiny mole hill. I think you guys are just pushing people to buy ati simply because they don't want to listen to this crap anymore.

Fixed your post

 

[jaggerwild]

I heard batman sucks anyway......

 

[Lonbjerg]

I heard batman sucks anyway......

It's actually the best "movie" game i have ever tried.
And I have tried a lot from Robocop (on the Amiga) to Riddick, Wolverine and Avatar on the PC.

 

[Creig]

60-70&#37; of people own NVIDIA cards. I doubt any game developer would want to shoot for such a small audience.

I own several Nvidia cards myself. But none of them are current gen and could only be used for older games. So your "60-70%" number is totally meaningless.

ATi and Nvidia are the two big players in the AIB video card market. No developer is going to want to ignore either one.

Besides there are 100's of games in the TWIMTBP program. All of which have benefited PC gamers ...even the ones with ATI cards :shock: ...

And I'm sure ATi has a long list of games they've assisted developers with that benefit Nvidia owners as well. Plus, they've never locked out features from Nvidia owners.

Also AA does work in Batman on ATI cards, so this is just another ATI fan rant with zero substance.

We're talking about availability of the the in-game MSAA here. Please refer to the following article since you seem unfamiliar with the specifics:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/11/4/batmangate-amd-vs-nvidia-vs-eidos-fight-analyzed.aspx

Hopefully Fermi will push NVIDIA up to 80% markeshare or more so that PC gaming will continue to be supported.

How exactly does an overdue, unreleased product increase marketshare?

 

[evolucion8]

I don't know why you came to a conclusion that I tried to lecture you, but since you are saying it this way, I may as well do so.

but is nothing compare to you as you even use an ATI icon as your picture. If what he said is not worth a dime, then yours don't worth a penny.

My icon is simply a parody of the marketing program known as TWIMTBP, and that's it, period. Unlike you, I don't have to hide anything to proof any bias at all, because unlike you, I'm pretty neutral in this type of ground, and you can see across all my posts the pros and cons of buying both GPU's vendors, you are just simply nVidia biased, period. You don't have to show an nVidia Icon in your profile, is all written over your face.

Third, the MSAA implementation was done by DICE and published by EA, neither ATI or Nvidia owns that piece of code. In fact, they may not even have access to that it. Because of that, although DICE have already made MSAA possible to games that features UE3, both Nvidia and ATI must build their own version of it if they want to make MSAA possible through other games. Forth, Mirror Edge also features a game engine called "Beast", which may or may not be the reason why MSAA was possible. TWIMTBP was also part of the development of Mirror Edge, but doesn't own anything in this case and the actual code was not made by Nvidia.

It doesn't matter if DICE made it, what counts in the end is that MSAA is simply possible if the developer isn't lazy enough to implement it. Having to resort in that kind of cheap amd marketing lies like the issue in BAA with nVidia's anti competitive tactics is simply laziness and money under the table. Just like Assassin Creed.

 

[jaggerwild]

It's actually the best "movie" game i have ever tried.
And I have tried a lot from Robocop (on the Amiga) to Riddick, Wolverine and Avatar on the PC.

"the best "movie" game i have ever tried", I would never buy a game cause it was based on a movie........ People said it sucked period.

 

[Seero]

My icon is simply a parody of the marketing program known as TWIMTBP, and that's it, period. Unlike you, I don't have to hide anything to proof any bias at all, because unlike you, I'm pretty neutral in this type of ground, and you can see across all my posts the pros and cons of buying both GPU's vendors, you are just simply nVidia biased, period. You don't have to show an nVidia Icon in your profile, is all written over your face.

It doesn't matter if DICE made it, what counts in the end is that MSAA is simply possible if the developer isn't lazy enough to implement it. Having to resort in that kind of cheap amd marketing lies like the issue in BAA with nVidia's anti competitive tactics is simply laziness and money under the table. Just like Assassin Creed.

Lazy, lies and money under the table is all you can pull out?

lol
I'm pretty neutral in this type of ground
hahaha
Now I just wanna see you say this with a straight face.
rofl

 

[Wreckage]

My icon is simply a parody of the marketing program known as TWIMTBP, and that's it, period.

You do realize that statement makes you sound even more biased, don't you?

 

[SolMiester]

Please, don't feed the trollckage...

Seero, I was able to activate Anti Aliasing with Batman AA using the DeviceID changer in ATi Tray tool, fooling Batman AA thinking that I owned a GTX 260. It's pretty easy and shows that nVidia is simply a marketing company that loves anti competitive practices, Period.

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/interviews/2010/01/06/interview-amd-on-game-development-and-dx11/1 << Is an eye opener.

<sigh> - the reason nV made the AA for their devices only was so they would only have to support their own gpus with that code....why cant you understand it was ATi that left their clients out in the cold, by NOT liasing with developers to create their own code?

 

[SunnyD]

<sigh> - the reason nV made the AA for their devices only was so they would only have to support their own gpus with that code....why cant you understand it was ATi that left their clients out in the cold, by NOT liasing with developers to create their own code?

Last I thought it was Eidos that was supposed to be developing the game, not hardware vendors.

 

[evolucion8]

You do realize that statement makes you sound even more biased, don't you?

You are the less indicated for this, you have been banned so many times for that. Pot? Kettle? Anyone?

 

[Lonbjerg]

"the best "movie" game i have ever tried", I would never buy a game cause it was based on a movie........ People said it sucked period.

Ah...fanboy detected...my bad, I thought you where a valid poster.

Won't happen again.

 

[T2k]

Last I thought it was Eidos that was supposed to be developing the game, not hardware vendors.

It was a nasty trick from NV and I'm quite sure Eidos went along *happily* (-> involves a nice sum with several zeros after the first number.)

ISVs can get full support from either company if they request it - this truly disgusting ANTI-GAMER trick is actually a new low point, even from such regularly lowlife company like NV.