Is there any point to putting a turbo or supercharger in an econocar?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I've been reading a lot of How Stuff Works and I gotta say that cars are fascinating. I got around to thinking - is there a point in putting a supercharger in an econocar?

I like the Honda Fit. Great utility car with seat configurations that make me really happy and gas mileage that is awesome. I see super/turbocharger kits going for $3000.

117HP + maybe 50HP extra from the charger = 167HP.... uhhhh... whoop-de-doo? 0-60mph from 8.9 seconds down to... 7.5 maybe? Is this what I could expect in the real world? So $3000 extra to make a peppy car into a somewhat more peppy car.

How much worse would gas mileage be? I understand that forced induction puts more air into the chambers which allows more fuel to be burned in the same amount of space, resulting in more horsepower. So I guess this isn't a feature that can be turned off? ie. a base Fit cruising at 60mph will get 40mpg but one that's supercharged will forever get, say, 33mpg?

 

[EightySix Four]

Some people get there rocks off modifying slow cars to be fast(er). Others would rather purchase a fast car in the first place, and some modify those to be even faster than that. Realistically, there is no point (and I'm a sports car fanatic) to modifications passed a certain point for road vehicles. The roads in the states just don't support the kind of speeds the cars can achieve, so all that matters is 0 to the speed limit, which many stock cars can do sub 5 seconds anyways.

As far as MPG, it really depends on the motor and the work done to it. Turbos don't change gas mileage too terribly, and superchargers are supposed to be getting better about how much they leech power from the motor when cruising, but yes, a few MPG loss is expected. Maybe from 40 to 36 or so would be my expectation. I don't think I'd spend $3k on a blower for a 50hp gain though.

Also, modifications on cars usually don't add much to the resale value if any at all.

 

[yhelothar]

That kind of hp gain on such a small and light car would more likely take the 0-60 down to around 6 seconds, which would make it a pretty fun to drive car. But I would hope that the tires and suspension was upgraded too.
There should be sub $1000 turbokits for small 4 bangers.
I know for the miata, you can get one that takes the 1.6L from 120hp to 150hp for $750.
In general, I'd say it's pretty dumb. But there are some really lightweight econoboxes that handle well that would make a really fun to drive car. Those small hatchback civics are one of those. Too bad they scream boyracer and are ugly as fuuuuu.

 

[Siddhartha]

I have a RSX Type S which is rated at 200 hp and weighs about 100 pounds more than the FIT. If I beat hell out of it I can to do a 0 to 60 mph in less than 7 seconds but I value my clutch too much for that. So I think Fuzzy's acceleration estimates are realistic for a Turbo Charged FIT.

I really appreciate my car's power when I merge onto Interstate and Parkways. and when I need to get away from and around idiots*. So I can see the appeal of getting more power in the FIT. *People on cell phones, tailgaters, left lane bandits, etc

IIRC, The Type S was a $3000 upcharge over the regular RSX. But the Type S was an full spec upgrade over the RSX. Too bad Honda probably will never offer a perfomance upgrade for the FIT.

How much is a comparable car to the FIT which can do 0 to 60 in around 7 seconds?

Speed is very handy so I would expect a decrease in real world mpg with a Turbo charged car.

 

[hans007]

0 to 60 is not the be all and end all of performance. a lot of it is influenced by the amount of grip you have from a standing start which is why more hp doesnt really help FWD cards as much as you'd think it would .

if anything the turbo would be nice once you are already at speed. say yo uare in a fit in and want to pass someone who is going 80mph. it might be difficult to do with the stock, but given your car is already at speed, you wont be chirping tires to speed up, you will just be able to speed up faster.

 

[Hey Zeus]

Honda Fit + K20 Swap = Sex

 

[StageLeft]

In real life hardly anybody does this because you've just destroyed your warranty, destroyed resale, putting more through an engine than it was designed for, and ditto on the transmission.

 

[exdeath]

Problem with this is turbos and superchargers generally cost the same regardless what you put them on. For $3000 you can put it on a 4 cyl 100 HP engine and get 150 HP or put it on a 400 HP 8 cyl engine and get 600 HP.

It's just not worth the up front investment for such little gains in absolute terms. You're better off with an engine swap provided there are mount/harness swap kits readily available and you can pick up an engine for $1-2k and DIY.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Look up "Kei cars". These are a class of cars that have a 660cc max displacement in Japan, but make for some interesting pocket rockets of cars. That said, there are some interesting cars in this class: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/12/tokyo-auto-salon-2009-the-best-from-tas-but-first/

 

[Uhtrinity]

If someone comes up with an affordable kit I hope to put a turbo on my Insight. There is an Insight driver that did this about 5 years ago running about 5 - 6 lbs boost with about 150k miles logged. He had a 20 - 30 hp gain and his lifetime mileage is still over 60 mpg. That is on a 1,000 cc 3 cylinder.

http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/User:Rjf/Willies_Red_Rocket

 

[c3p0]

If your engine is not designed to withstand the extra force a Turbo or Supercharger put on the engine, you will probably end up blowing the crank through the oil pan. Many have tried, and many have failed. So if you are seriously considering this, you might want to ensure that the engine is designed strong enough to except the mod. Just my thoughts on the subject.

c3p0
:hmm:

 

[SJP0tato]

If your engine is not designed to withstand the extra force a Turbo or Supercharger put on the engine, you will probably end up blowing the crank through the oil pan. Many have tried, and many have failed. So if you are seriously considering this, you might want to ensure that the engine is designed strong enough to except the mod. Just my thoughts on the subject.

c3p0
:hmm:

Usually it's making sure you have the proper fuel delivery/ignition modifications in conjunction with the additional air being provided more than the motor itself being strong enough to last.

Many people happily spend $1500 on a turbo "kit" that promises to add 25-40% additional horsepower, but how many of them are willing to do the research and spend the extra $1-2k on fuel delivery, timing adjustment, and tuning to deal with the additional power? Not many unfortunately, and the result is greatly reduced engine longevity.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Usually it's making sure you have the proper fuel delivery/ignition modifications in conjunction with the additional air being provided more than the motor itself being strong enough to last.

Many people happily spend $1500 on a turbo "kit" that promises to add 25-40% additional horsepower, but how many of them are willing to do the research and spend the extra $1-2k on fuel delivery, timing adjustment, and tuning to deal with the additional power? Not many unfortunately, and the result is greatly reduced engine longevity.

But is all this needed for such a small gain in something like a Fit? We're not talking a massive turbo that will twist the frame or burn out the tires at every start... we're talking going from 115hp to maybe 165hp. Manufacturers for Fit superchargers say no other modifications are needed besides dropping in the charger and a new chip.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

This is also a possibility:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vBWtq_uacs

 

[fbrdphreak]

Is there any point to putting a turbo or supercharger in an econocar?

No.

 

[TruePaige]

This is also a possibility:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vBWtq_uacs

:awe:

 

[Hyperlite]

But is all this needed for such a small gain in something like a Fit? We're not talking a massive turbo that will twist the frame or burn out the tires at every start... we're talking going from 115hp to maybe 165hp. Manufacturers for Fit superchargers say no other modifications are needed besides dropping in the charger and a new chip.

You're making light of a horsepower gain of 30%, on a car that weighs, what, 2800 lbs? less? That would feel like a completely new car.

 

[Viperoni]

There can be a point, but it's usually not worth it.

 

[exdeath]

If your engine is not designed to withstand the extra force a Turbo or Supercharger put on the engine, you will probably end up blowing the crank through the oil pan. Many have tried, and many have failed. So if you are seriously considering this, you might want to ensure that the engine is designed strong enough to except the mod. Just my thoughts on the subject.

c3p0
:hmm:

I've never seen a crank let go in that manner from boost. Assuming the tune is right and you don't burn or crack a piston first, on an economy engine not built for boost, it's almost always the weak head bolts or the tiny rod bolts or the rods themselves that fail from fatigue even with the best tuning.

The crank and main caps on even the weakest economy motors are usually surprisingly stout and built for years of abuse and neglect.

The biggest reason it's not worth it is simply the costs vs. gains ratio. If you are going to invest a fixed cost of thousands of dollars in a turbo/supercharger system, do you want it on an engine that will get your money's worth and use it's full potential either now or in the future? Or stick on it a powered metal economy motor that you can't even run past 6 psi without bending something and only get a 20 HP gain with no further room for improvement? And after all that, you're still slow, and the only thing you are slightly faster than are cars like yours that are stock.

For people looking to get 20-30 more HP out of their econocar, it's just not worth it. Most people are going to spend $3000 on a bolt on supercharger kit, drive it around the block and be disappointed; "that's it? that's 3 grand?". And if you're thinking you can do it for under $1000, put down the tools and slowly walk away from your car.

Econobox sleepers are fun and all, there is nothing wrong with that, but you better be committed and have the money for it if you want to see any tangible gains, otherwise you'll be broke and disappointed and have a voided warranty. This means starting first with an engine swap to something worth dumping money into in the first place.

Most fast Toyotas and Hondas worth the money put into them start with *-G(T)E or B/K series swap.

If you are looking for the cheapest way to get a few extra ponies in an econocar, the best route would be if that 4 cyl car had a V6 option. Toyota 5S (130 HP) to 1MZ (190 HP + torque) swaps are popular, cheap, and straight forward, for example. Costs as little as $500 for a complete 1MZ V6 engine + say another $1000 to pick mounts, harness, axles, linkages, ecu, etc from the donor car.

Sometimes you can even just find a complete working car that already has a factory V6 for cheaper than what it costs to do an engine swap or blower; that's the killer that ends 99% of power ambitions on econocars. Most people who just want a faster car, and aren't rich or crazy gearheads doing it just to say they did it, realize at some point in their planning process, that they are simply better off trading up to the next fastest car.

 

[Arkaign]

It really depends on the car. Some cars react really well to boost, others don't.

The MZR / Duratec 4-bangers respond really really well. A turbo kit + tune on a Focus 2.0L boosts things from 140hp stock to ~225whp without running the boost so high that you risk motor damage or have bad turbo lag.

$1k won't do it though, parts, labor, tune, and some supporting things (you'd want 16" or 17" wheels and decent tires, for starters, and probably some better brakes) .. to do it right you'd probably be looking at more like $2500-$4000.

 

[Rifter]

If you want to do it right it cost alot of money, thats just the way it is as you need some way other than the stock ECU to manage the air/fuel and timing maps. You will need new internals to handle high boost, forged pistons and rods are a must for high HP applications, and for extream applications you will need to sleeve the block or risk cracking the stock sleeves. The computer control systems alone can run $1000 or more, you can chip your stock ECU for cheaper but then you are constantly burning chips and replacing them till you get it right, i prefer a computer where you can hook up a laptop and do real time adjustments. Wideband O2 for tuning is a must and that alone will run you 200-500. All That said i have a turbo project for mt 88 CRX planned, budget is $5000, goal is 300 HP to the wheels on pump gas. I have already upgraded all the suspension and had the trans rebuilt, all thats left to do is rebuild the engine for a turbo and drop in a heavy clutch.

 

[wiretap]

Done it before.. waste of money, but fun. I went from around 100hp to 180hp in a base model 2003 Mitsu Lancer. I had quite a few supporting mods as well. In all honesty.. start by buying a forced induction vehicle, then go from there.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

One thing to note as well is that not all ECUs play well with boost. Most homebrew Dodge 4.7 turbo/supercharger projects end up stumbling because of the stock computer's being locked down and method of air metering. It doesn't know how to work with boost, and if you go in and make it rich so it's not lean at boost, it'll just "fix itself" and be lean again. There used to be a handful of supercharger kits for the 4.7 (that all ran about $5000 for 100RWHP), but I think they've all either been pulled from the market due to lack of sales/inability to support, or emissions (I'm not sure if any ever had CARB EO numbers). When the Hemi came out, aftermarket for the 4.7 died that day. As a consequence, most people wanting high performance Dakotas go for a 408 stroker swap. Costs less, more gains, more potential.

With economy cars, it can be really hit or miss as far as what's available. Certain ones really caught on and parts are a dime a dozen, while others you just look around going "There's nothing here!".

 

[fbrdphreak]

You're making light of a horsepower gain of 30%, on a car that weighs, what, 2800 lbs? less? That would feel like a completely new car.

Indeed it would, and the owner would likely very much enjoy it. But it would still be slow.

 

[ViviTheMage]

LOL, if you think the stock Honda Fit is peppy, put in a supercharger..that'd be peppier.