Is there a housing bubble?

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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I heard a proponent of the idea that there's a housing bubble on NPR. He believes we have a housing bubble. I remember one of his arguments was:

-in San Francisco people are paying around ten years of income for a place and only two years of income in Ohio. Is San Francisco really that much more desirable? No. So something is ammiss.

Personally, I'm willing to spend a lot on location. I think the market is showing people ARE willing to pay more for location. But this was only one of his arguments. Another reason I'm not sure there is one is that it seemed like the .com bubble was in large part due to people being enamored and irrational with tech stocks. I don't think most home owners think that way about housing. It seems like people like to buy housing based on more sound principles. But overall I'm not sure.

Do you think there's a housing bubble? If so, why?

Share your predictions if you dare...
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
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OF COURSE there is a housing bubble. That's common sense. Who knows when we hit it, but when we do, prices are going to fall substantually. Keep in mind it won't burst everywhere, however. Places like San Fran and New York will always have high demand for housing. In places where there are construction booms (like where I live in Northern California), eventually supply will be greater than demand and the prices will begin to fall.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: ntdz
OF COURSE there is a housing bubble. That's common sense.

You have a good chance of being right, but you haven't provided any evidence.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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www.ShawCAD.com
Yes there is a bubble. However I don't think it's to the point where it's landing can't be managed. Speculation seems to be the name of the game with interest rates low and prices jumping in short periods. Interest only loans are hot at the moment. So yes - the factors are all there - I just don't see it as a HUGE bubble in the overall picture yet. Sure - there will be places hit when it corrects - but people should know better than to over extend themselves for "quick" money/equity.

CsG
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
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Interest only mortgages....got to love that one...........................
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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I've heard about the RE Bubble for a while now. Seems more like a buzz word news networks use to generate interest.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: nergee
Interest only mortgages....got to love that one...........................

Are these new for mortgages? What would be a proper use of an interest-only mortgage?
 
Sep 12, 2004
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People have been claiming there's a bubble and that's it's going to burst soon for well over a year now. One of the last ones I heard claimed it would burst this March or April.

Is there actually a "bubble?" If rapid appreciation can be defined as a bubble, then yes. Orlando is hot housing market right now, like many places in the US. Last month the average price of home in Orlando rose by @ $17,000. My house has almost doubled in value in the 2-1/2 years since I bought it. That sort of thing is happening in other areas of the US as well.

If mortgage rates rise significantly (because recently they haven't been following the prime rate, as is the general norm), or if the housing market becomes saturated (unlikely in the near future with so many looking and so much turnover), or if prices inflate to levels beyond the means of most (imo, the proable scenario), then home buying will slow and that rapid appreciation will slow or even reverse itself as well?i.e. the bubble will burst.
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: nergee
Interest only mortgages....got to love that one...........................

Are these new for mortgages? What would be a proper use of an interest-only mortgage?

Interest-only mortgages are ideal for two situations.

1) An investment property where cashflow needs to be maximized.
2) A person is planning on moving within 10 years.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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"Yes", there is a housing bubble: Interest rates are at all time lows. Although motgage rates have remained relatively unchanged, housing market will not see a decline anytime soon. The "size of the bubble will be small" as the fed increases long term rates very slowly, most people will remain uneffected by this. When? Nobody knows, not for the near future, housing demand is high, the economy is doing well, americans remain and continue to grow wealthy. Anyone making predictions is a either a genius or a bull$hitter.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Amplifier
Interest-only mortgages are ideal for two situations.

1) An investment property where cashflow needs to be maximized.

Makes sense.


2) A person is planning on moving within 10 years.
Even if you want to move in 10 years, isn't it wise to put in principal instead of paying off interest which you'll never get back? Is this only preferable over renting if your mortgage payment is less than a rent would be?
 

LoverBoyJ

Senior member
Mar 22, 2001
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Yes, but its not everywhere, unlike the tech stock bubble where any company that is related to tech or with words that end in COM has an overblown price.
RE bubble will always be on specific areas close to major metropolitan or industry places.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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1) Local housing bubbles have occured in the past. There is no reason to believe they won't happen again.
2) The last big housing bubble happened when the feds did a major interest rate increase. The feds are now doing a major interest rate increase.
3) Housing prices have skyrocketted in California in the last few years while jobs and salary have not.
4) Interest only loans.

#4 is the big one. Someone posted a link in another ATOT thread saying 60%+ of new mortgages in California are interest only if I remember correctly this thread. Compare that to ~30% for the rest of the country. An interest only loan is interest only for a few years. Then suddenly you have to pay interest, principal, and all the principal you put off for the first few years. People on interest only loans get them since all they can afford is the interest. How are these same people suddenly going to afford massive increases in their monthly bills? They won't. They will sell or refinance. But the new loans will now be at a much higher interest rate. That means to afford the same payment, the house price must decline. The selloff of overpriced houses will be massive (and there will be an increase in prices of reasonable housing). Of course, the selloff will only occur when these interest only loans reach the principal stage in a couple years.
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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In 5-10 years a person has hardly build up enough equity for it to be justifiable. A person can do alot better with lower payments IFF they don't throw the money away.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: dullard
1) Local housing bubbles have occured in the past. There is no reason to believe they won't happen again.
2) The last big housing bubble happened when the feds did a major interest rate increase. The feds are now doing a major interest rate increase.
3) Housing prices have skyrocketted in California in the last few years while jobs and salary have not.
4) Interest only loans.

#4 is the big one. Someone posted a link in another ATOT thread saying 60%+ of new mortgages in California are interest only if I remember correctly. Compare that to ~30% for the rest of the country. An interest only loan is interest only for a few years. Then suddenly you have to pay interest, principal, and all the principal you put off for the first few years. People on interest only loans get them since all they can afford is the interest. How are these same people suddenly going to afford massive increases in their monthly bills? They won't. They will sell. The selloff will be massive. Of course, the selloff will only occur when these interest only loans reach the principal stage in a couple years.
A lot of the interest only loan people are speculating that they can stay in their house for two years+ and then sell, walking away with a hefty profit. It's a smart move if you get in early and can ride the wave. It's the late comers who will end up screwed when the bottom drops out. And it always does eventually.

If anyone is buying a home on an interest only loan because that's all they can afford, then they're idiots. It seems like such people would be considiered high risk by the mortgage companies too.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,691
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
A lot of the interest only loan people are speculating that they can stay in their house for two years+ and then sell, walking away with a hefty profit. It's a smart move if you get in early and can ride the wave. It's the late comers who will end up screwed when the bottom drops out. And it always does eventually.

If anyone is buying a home on an interest only loan because that's all they can afford, then they're idiots. It seems like such people would be considiered high risk by the mortgage companies too.
Right. That may have worked in the late 90s and early 2000s. But you can't say that 61% of people can successfully do this. Just like buying stocks on margin in the late 1920s. Sure it worked for a while. That is, until everyone started doing it. Not everyone gets rich on a pyramid scheme.

 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
A lot of the interest only loan people are speculating that they can stay in their house for two years+ and then sell, walking away with a hefty profit. It's a smart move if you get in early and can ride the wave. It's the late comers who will end up screwed when the bottom drops out. And it always does eventually.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but interest-only loans are also variable-rate loans.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Amplifier
In 5-10 years a person has hardly build up enough equity for it to be justifiable. A person can do alot better with lower payments IFF they don't throw the money away.

Isn't paying interest if you aren't going to eventually own the place "throwing your money away"?

Why isn't it justifiable to build up equity in 5-10 years?

Lets say a guy has a 1000 rent or a 1000 mortgage. If he pays rent for ten years, he's out 10,000. If he pays 1,000 mortgage, he probably gets a lot of it back. Isn't it worth it in that case? :confused:
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
A lot of the interest only loan people are speculating that they can stay in their house for two years+ and then sell, walking away with a hefty profit. It's a smart move if you get in early and can ride the wave. It's the late comers who will end up screwed when the bottom drops out. And it always does eventually.

If anyone is buying a home on an interest only loan because that's all they can afford, then they're idiots. It seems like such people would be considiered high risk by the mortgage companies too.
Right. That may have worked in the late 90s and early 2000s. But you can't say that 61% of people can successfully do this. Just like buying stocks on margin in the late 1920s. Sure it worked for a while. That is, until everyone started doing it. Not everyone gets rich on a pyramid scheme.
Heh. It's just like buying stocks or almost any kind of investing. There are winners and losers every day. All the stock market is is nationally legalized gambling. It's really not much different from horse racing or poker. You can can build up expertise but it still won't guarantee a win every time.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Amplifier
In 5-10 years a person has hardly build up enough equity for it to be justifiable. A person can do alot better with lower payments IFF they don't throw the money away.

Isn't paying interest if you aren't going to eventually own the place "throwing your money away"?

Why isn't it justifiable to build up equity in 5-10 years?

Lets say a guy has a 1000 rent or a 1000 mortgage. If he pays rent for ten years, he's out 10,000. If he pays 1,000 mortgage, he probably gets a lot of it back. Isn't it worth it in that case? :confused:
He's not taking appreciation into consideration. The mortgage you get on a house should depend on how long you plan to be there. Not everyone is in a house to build equity over the long term.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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The value of the dollar has fallen quite a bit. In relative terms, maybe there is not a bubble? If the dollar has appreciable gains, then we could be in for rough ride, then again, that would be relative also. :confused:

Profit margins for new home construction would indicate if there is a bubble or not. :music: If only you knew a person in that business. :music:


 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
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Somebody out there must know when a large percentage of interest only loans will have that principal requirement kick in. I just wondering are there any buyers left? If everyone is planning on flipping the homes then who's going to save your ass from that building mortgage avalanche?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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I am a mortgage broker, 10+ years in the industry. This was in my morning news email:
Fed Officials Warn on Real Estate Values, Interest-Only Loans
2005-06-08 00:06 (New York)


By Craig Torres and Amy Strahan
June 8 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve governors and other
U.S. banking regulators are growing concerned that easier credit
standards and greater use of interest-only loans are fueling home
price speculation, increasing risks to the U.S. banking system as
interest rates rise.
``Financial institutions may not be fully recognizing the
risk embedded in these portfolios,'' the Fed, the Comptroller of
the Currency and three other regulators warned in a May 16 letter
on home-equity loans to lenders and bank examiners. Fed Chairman
Alan Greenspan, who talked the same week of ``froth'' in the
housing market, will likely be questioned on the topic during
congressional testimony tomorrow.
``The new development is the volume of these interest-only
first mortgages we're seeing,'' acting Comptroller Julie Williams
said in an interview. ``Banks should be evaluating the risks of
these types of loans, not just based on the initial loan terms,
but based on the loan terms that may roll into effect over the
life of the loan.''
Central bankers and regulators say they are concerned at the
prospect of a real-estate bust that would cascade through the
banking system, causing even healthy banks to pull back on
lending. That would limit the ability of the Fed to influence bank
lending and the economy through interest-rate policy.
Real estate busts ``have a long duration and they affect
everybody,'' said Harvey Rosenblum, executive vice president of
the Dallas Fed. Banks have difficulty raising capital to make new
loans, and the capital they have is constrained by loan losses, he
said.

Flipping the Switch

``You have this downward spiral effect,'' Rosenblum said.
``When you are going through these kind of economic times, you
flip the switch to off,'' even at healthy banks.
For now, officials say, the banking system is healthy and
real estate prices are buoyant. U.S. banks' net loan losses
totaled $7.2 billion in the first quarter, the lowest total since
the third quarter of 2000, according to the Federal Deposit
Insurance Corp.'s quarterly report released in May.
So-called ``guidance letters'' such as the one issued May 16
are aimed at improving lending standards without interfering with
markets. Another letter, this one dealing with first mortgages, is
under discussion, Kevin Mukri, a spokesman for the Comptroller,
said.
Fed chairman Greenspan, who appears before the Joint Economic
Committee of Congress on Thursday, told the Economic Club of New
York May 20 that there is a ``good deal of speculation'' in real
estate markets, and ``we're also seeing it in the mortgage
market.''

Mortgage Rates

Fueling home-price speculation are mortgage rates near four-
decade lows. Rates on 30-year fixed mortgages have declined even
though the Fed has raised short-term rates 2 percentage points
since June 2004. At that time, 30-year fixed-rate mortgages
averaged 6.29 percent versus 5.72 percent last month.
Signs of speculation include second-home purchases for
investment, the ``heavy reliance on interest-only loans'' and the
use of adjustable-rate mortgages despite increases in short-term
rates, said Patrick Lawler, chief economist at the Office of
Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight.
Interest-only mortgages accounted for only 6 percent of
adjustable-rate mortgages in 2002. By the end of 2004 they
accounted for 23 percent nationwide, according to LoanPerformance,
a mortgage-data provider based in San Francisco.
Sales of investment properties rose 14.4 percent in 2004 to
1.8 million units, according to the National Association of
Realtors. About 80 percent of investment properties are single-
family homes, the association says.

Average Gains

Nationally, home prices averaged a 12.5 percent gain from the
first quarter of 2004 to the first quarter of 2005, according to
an index tracked by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise
Oversight. Twenty-four states showed average home-price gains of
10 percent or more in the period.
Over the past four quarters, prices are rising faster than
any period since 1979, when the consumer price index rose to 13.3
percent, compared with 3.3 percent last year.
``In some markets -- I won't name individual cities in the
Southeast -- the activity in residential real estate looks pretty
speculative to me, and that makes me very uncomfortable,'' Atlanta
Fed bank president Jack Guynn said. ``There is a very good chance
that some lenders, some buyers and some builders will get
burned.''
The May 16 regulatory letter cited interest-only loans that
lower the initial out-of-pocket costs for homebuyers by letting
them omit monthly principal payments for a time. While interest-
only loans can extend the reach of buyers in markets where prices
are moving up, they also contain several risks. Interest-only home
equity loans rarely have locks or caps, unlike adjustable-rate
mortgages. And the principal eventually has to be paid back, which
can double or triple monthly payments.

Risk of Default

``When I took economics in World War II, and we were studying
the Great Depression, one of the reasons given were all the
interest-only loans that came due,'' L. William Seidman, who was
chairman of the FDIC from 1985 to 1991, said in an interview.
``They were an indication of an economy getting into unsound
lending. Ever since then it's been a rule that when you go into
interest-only loans, you're very substantially increasing the risk
of default.''
Richard T. Nadolski, senior vice president of mortgage loan
administration at North Shore Capital Bank in Brookfield,
Wisconsin, said the loans are very popular.

Bandwagon

``We started getting on the interest-only bandwagon about a
year ago, and it's gone from nothing to 30 percent'' of North
Shore's adjustable-rate mortgages, Nadolski said.
Bank of America, the third-largest U.S. bank, offers some
interest-only mortgages, according to spokeswoman Julie Davis.
``Our overall approach with any customer is to sit down with
them and try to identify their long and short-term financial needs
around purchasing a home,'' Davis said. ``How long are they going
to be in the home, what do they anticipate career-wise?''
The vast majority of Bank of America's mortgage loans are
regular, 30-year mortgages as opposed to adjustable rate
mortgages, Davis said.
``The interest-only loan has added about 10 percent to the
value of homes in California and other high-priced areas,'' said
David Akre, co-chief executive officer of New York Mortgage Trust
Inc., a real estate investment trust.

This is the Fed speaking, people. Take it seriously.

To answer the poll questions:
1. Yes. Dramatic increases in prices in any market accompanied by a dramatic increase in purchases purely for speculative reasons always signal an impending bubble. Always.
2. It's going to be a big deal, but not the end of the world. The bubble will spread out over time and space. First to bubble will be major urban areas like SF (which is already beginning to bubble mildly) and NYC, spreading slowly ("creeping") out through various markets from the top-down. One effect we are already seeing of this are small town markets are literally exploding in value. This is happening because people are fleeing the overpriced big cities in search of affordable living, spreading cost increases into smaller markets. This is a market phenomenon known as "creep," but it is literally dramatic right now. Some small markets are seeing 25%+ annual appreciations (i.e. Eugene and Medford, OR and Spokane, WA).
3. If prices continue unabated into next year, 2006, the Fed will step in to crack down on risky lending practices that are encouraging the price increases, like interest-only loans and stated-income loans for wage-earning borrowers. Immediately effected will be the large high-dollar urban markets that depend on these debt instruments in order to qualify homebuyers for those immense mortgages. Hopefully, a panic does not ensue.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
He's not taking appreciation into consideration. The mortgage you get on a house should depend on how long you plan to be there. Not everyone is in a house to build equity over the long term.

So you agree it can make sense to pay principal even if you are only going to be somewhere for five years?