By what logic can you compare the brain to a computer? It's not a hard drive, and I doubt you could ever equate its capacity to kb/MB/GB or vice versa. The human brain is a living, organic object, whereas a computer is artificial and specifically designed to operate in ways we can understand.
I can't even see how anyone can quantify the storage capacity in a measurement such as a megabyte, petabyte etc. When we say that, we're thinking of a binary system first of all, and the brain is a quaternary system I believe? The brain is an amazingly powerful computer which we still hardly understand. I think once we do understand how things work then we'd know the actual capabilities. I find it very fascinating but that field is far from my expertise.
Needless to say, I don't think there would be any problem with a person living for even one thousand years and "running out of space". A lot of information seems to get discarded, ie: we don't remember every car we saw on the road today, but we do remember how we got home. No stack overflows or anything like that...
Needless to say, I don't think there would be any problem with a person living for even one thousand years and "running out of space". A lot of information seems to get discarded, ie: we don't remember every car we saw on the road today, but we do remember how we got home. No stack overflows or anything like that...
Originally posted by: everman
...When we say that, we're thinking of a binary system first of all, and the brain is a quaternary system I believe? The brain is an amazingly powerful computer which we still hardly understand. I think once we do understand how things work then we'd know the actual capabilities. I find it very fascinating but that field is far from my expertise.
...
The quad states like Positively Yes, Maybe Yes, Maybe No and Positively Not seems to be the life I live.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
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Then drop a person into a vat of liquid nitrogen. That'll stop all cell production and death. Then spend a couple lifetimes dissecting and counting the cells. Then you'll know how many cells the person had at time of death.
To use an analogy, the brain seems to use really lossy compression, with caching. Frequently used data is kept decompressed, and in cache. Anything else is stored in long term memory, and data is gradually thrown out as it is deemed unneeded, or too detailed.
isnt it true that some people have a disease taht allows them to count things exactly as to how many there are? for example, you spill a can of beans and you know exactly how many there are. now wuts up with that?
People with exceptional Autism or OCD causes there brains to hate imprecision. Everything must be repetitive and must be accounted for, so there brain developes a knack for counting things. If I had enough practice, I could probably count all the beans in a jar and sort salt from sugar, but I haven't the inclination to do so.
There have been so many estimates on the capacity of the brain, I wouldn't know where to begin. I've heard numbers in the billions, but all the esimates have one thing in common: they specify the number of active neurons in the brain, and they say 'items' as the unit of measurement for what you can remember. Items because you can't quantify what someone knows with 1s and 0s. Just because the information was put into a pattern doesn't mean it isn't stored.
To expand on the items thing... I remember a discussion from a while ago that specified how we can do approximation and such because we think in between 1 and 0. Fuzzy computation, I believe it is called. There is a definite limit to how much the brain can do, but a good healthy, intelligent, brain shouldn't have to worry about its own limitation.
And don't anyone say "We only use 10% of our brains." The number is around 70-80%, and you can't use certain parts of your brain for thinking anyway (All the material that isn't a dendrite, axon, or synapse).
There have been so many estimates on the capacity of the brain, I wouldn't know where to begin. I've heard numbers in the billions, but all the esimates have one thing in common: they specify the number of active neurons in the brain, and they say 'items' as the unit of measurement for what you can remember. Items because you can't quantify what someone knows with 1s and 0s. Just because the information was put into a pattern doesn't mean it isn't stored.
To expand on the items thing... I remember a discussion from a while ago that specified how we can do approximation and such because we think in between 1 and 0. Fuzzy computation, I believe it is called. There is a definite limit to how much the brain can do, but a good healthy, intelligent, brain shouldn't have to worry about its own limitation.
And don't anyone say "We only use 10% of our brains." The number is around 70-80%, and you can't use certain parts of your brain for thinking anyway (All the material that isn't a dendrite, axon, or synapse).
I remember seeing a PBS program sometime ago where they were preforming a brain operation. As an expeiriment, that insrted a small electrode and gave a tiney electrical charge to the brain. The subject (who was awake during the operation) had intense memory recollections. The subject said it was more then a memory, it was "like reliving it". They could recall every detail as if they were there. He said he could "feel" the wind on his face.
I think it would be more accurate to say the brain "deletes" it from consiousness. More like a "buffer" just drops the oldest, most unused info out when new info comes in. However, that doesn't account for memorized knowledge/skills. Do we somehow keep the pathways open just by frequent use? I know if I haven't done a task for a while that I know how to do or if I don't complete a task and am not able to get back to it for quite a while it is almost like having to start it all out again.
Also, different people are different. Some are problem solvers, some have fantastic memories, some are creative, and some can do it all. There is no way to prove it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people out there who are as much smarter then the average joe then the average joe is smarter then a dolphin or chimp.
Or not
Then how do you account for brain damaged people who have had cat scans that show only small parts (maybe 20%) of their brain is actually working as compared to a normal brain, but it is being used much more intensely?
Well I know I've seen many instances where even though a person has severe brain damage, they can still function. Part of this is due to the brain re-wiring itself, creating new pathways. The brain has far more power than what is needed to simply sustain life.
I would say it is like the internet. You take out a few routers here and there and the other start working over time to compensate. So the same could be true for the brain. Take out a few brain cells and the others pick up the slack. This has been shown in medical tests where paralisys was diagnosed and then after the patient was put through specialized physical therapy, the surrounding brain cells were able to learn how to take over for the damaged cells by creating new links to other nearby cells and thereby allowing for return of limited to full functionality. But there is a limit to this in the sense that the lower the number of surviving brain cells the less returned functionality the patient can expect to have returned.
So, this can really lend a hand to our discussion of is there a capacity to the brain? Yes, I beilive there is. Can it be measured in mathmatical terms? At this time no, and only because we lack the mathmatical philosophy to define adequent terms of measurement for just how much the brain can store. Do we say the brain can store 100, 200, or maybe 300 years of experiences before something bad happens? Or maybe we should say it can store 100 megabytes where each experience consists of 200Kb of stimulus information (What it felt like to be touched, What we were thinking at the time of the experience, etc...). It is a hard matter to define, and until we know more about how experiences are stored in the brain we may never know if or when we will be getting a "Disk is full" error message flashing in our field of vision.
So, this can really lend a hand to our discussion of is there a capacity to the brain? Yes, I beilive there is. Can it be measured in mathmatical terms? At this time no, and only because we lack the mathmatical philosophy to define adequent terms of measurement for just how much the brain can store. Do we say the brain can store 100, 200, or maybe 300 years of experiences before something bad happens? Or maybe we should say it can store 100 megabytes where each experience consists of 200Kb of stimulus information (What it felt like to be touched, What we were thinking at the time of the experience, etc...). It is a hard matter to define, and until we know more about how experiences are stored in the brain we may never know if or when we will be getting a "Disk is full" error message flashing in our field of vision.
I guess I wasn't very clear. What you are saying is what I was refering to. Severley brain damaged people that function qas normally as anybody else have had cat scans with the results I mentioned before.
Logical dictates that the brain at some point has to have a maximum capacity. It's capacity has to be huge with the amount of data that it processes every day. The real question is will it lock up like Windows used to when the hard drive got full, or will it "erase" some old data to make room for the new?
Oh dear, I guess you are right. I just thought about the case of a girl who lost the right half of her brain because of an infection but could still had reasonable intelligence and could use both sides of her body. The brain adapts. Not much else I can say without getting discredited. But just don't say we all use 10% of our brains.
EDIT: Correction, 7 year old, probably European, girl with freaky syndrome and removed left side of brain. Only real problems are small movement issues and impaired eyesight. Haven't read about whether or not they affected the optic nerve, though.
EDIT: Correction, 7 year old, probably European, girl with freaky syndrome and removed left side of brain. Only real problems are small movement issues and impaired eyesight. Haven't read about whether or not they affected the optic nerve, though.
I think the younger they are they better the chance of a full recovery. I don't understand why, the brain is such a fickle thing that who really knows? Cwetainly not me.
>>The idea that the brain uses lossy compression is silly. Hypnotic experiments and savant study show us that it is possible for us to remember anything with the same precision a computer can. However, all memory operations must be "encoded" from short term memory, and short term memory lasts only a handful of seconds (and then it's gone, no refresh there baby!)...in order to "encode" you have to be paying attention, and the average human has much difficulty paying attention at the level necessary to completely encode every detail. Our sensory organs aren't at fault, obviously...because the human eyes are the most sensitive known to exist, ears are excellent, sense of smell is crap but still sensitive, touch is very good...the information is sent to short term memory. Do you choose to remember, I think is the general question.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I think the younger they are they better the chance of a full recovery. I don't understand why, the brain is such a fickle thing that who really knows? Cwetainly not me.
We should realize when brain cells die they die. There is no regeneration of cells. They don't grow back unless you are given a massive injection of stem cells which are programmed to turn into brain cells.
Well until we know just how information is stored in the brain then it is hard to say and prove there is a limit. As far as I know the brain stores information by linking brain cell to brain cell. With that said it is possible to think the amount would belimited by just how many links a cell can have and maintain and how much a person uses all those links. As has been said out attention span is not that great so I think attention span can be a determining factor in just how much we can store and remember.
I think you are on to something here. Why do some old people get senile (and not because of Alzeimers) while some stay mentally acute throughout their life? They may not be as sharp or as quick as they were when in their prime, but I've met many 90 year olds that have amazed me. Is it the old axium of "Use it or lose it"? If your body can stay healthy then I would say that thinking young and trying to keep learning as long as possible are the secrets to a long producitve life.
I remember reading some place that when they examined Ensteins brain that he had way more zygotes then the average person, something like 5 or 6 times as many. For those who don't know, zygotes are what "feeds" the brain cells, especically for deep thinking. It raised the question of whether he had more zygotes becausr of genetics or because of his mental activities. In other words, is the brain like a muscle that can get stronger thru use?? I never did hear anything about that since then. ANybody else know?
If you want to know how much your brain can hold, that is a difficult question. It can not at all be compared to that of a computer, because the entire concept of data storage is different, but to get a general idea of how big it is, think of this:
How many movies can one remember? Say a person watches a new movie every week for 40 years. Thats 2080 movies. Now, (at least for me) you will never really forget most movies, because if you ever go back and watch it again, the memories start to surface. So say the brain remembers 40% of each movie, and remembers 70% of all the movies its seen. With all 700MB divx movies, thats 400GB right there the brain has stored somewhere in there.
Moving on. Think about fully rendered, large scale, 3D models. The brain basicly stores extensive blueprints, all very finely detailed, to probally tens of square miles, and somewhat patchy blueprints to 10 times more that that. Think about all the places you lived, worked, visited frequently, traveled to, driven through. The brain remembers all that, even though you may no know how to retreave it. Are you aware how mindblowingly huge of a file that would be if it were a CAD drawing? For the sake of this argument, I would say it could easily range up to 2TBs.
On top of that, think about all the memories aquired throughout life. Basicly more large videos and snapshots, with texts of data tying it all togeter. At the very least, lets say 3TBs right there.
How about what you are actually seeing right now? Short term memory(if I remember correctly from Psyc class) is 10 seconds. Your brain is holding a 10 second, uber high resolution 3d redering, AND it has to have the capacity to proccess it in real time(thats moving into the realm of its massivly capable proocessing speeds, but we arn't talking about that right now). So that has got to be at least another 500GB right there.
There there is the extreamly sophisticated software that ties all the systems together and makes sure it all runs smothly. There are patern recognizing, self healing, data index, logic, abstract problem solving, audio/video rendering, and maintanace algorithoms that can beat the most advanced supercomputers in exsistance. That has gotta be a HUGE program. Another TB.
There are still so many more things the brain can do, these examples only scratch the surface, and they add up to 7TBs. I could easily seeing the true value reaching 100TBs.
But a simple answer would be: havent you ever seen Johnny Mnemonic?
How many movies can one remember? Say a person watches a new movie every week for 40 years. Thats 2080 movies. Now, (at least for me) you will never really forget most movies, because if you ever go back and watch it again, the memories start to surface. So say the brain remembers 40% of each movie, and remembers 70% of all the movies its seen. With all 700MB divx movies, thats 400GB right there the brain has stored somewhere in there.
Moving on. Think about fully rendered, large scale, 3D models. The brain basicly stores extensive blueprints, all very finely detailed, to probally tens of square miles, and somewhat patchy blueprints to 10 times more that that. Think about all the places you lived, worked, visited frequently, traveled to, driven through. The brain remembers all that, even though you may no know how to retreave it. Are you aware how mindblowingly huge of a file that would be if it were a CAD drawing? For the sake of this argument, I would say it could easily range up to 2TBs.
On top of that, think about all the memories aquired throughout life. Basicly more large videos and snapshots, with texts of data tying it all togeter. At the very least, lets say 3TBs right there.
How about what you are actually seeing right now? Short term memory(if I remember correctly from Psyc class) is 10 seconds. Your brain is holding a 10 second, uber high resolution 3d redering, AND it has to have the capacity to proccess it in real time(thats moving into the realm of its massivly capable proocessing speeds, but we arn't talking about that right now). So that has got to be at least another 500GB right there.
There there is the extreamly sophisticated software that ties all the systems together and makes sure it all runs smothly. There are patern recognizing, self healing, data index, logic, abstract problem solving, audio/video rendering, and maintanace algorithoms that can beat the most advanced supercomputers in exsistance. That has gotta be a HUGE program. Another TB.
There are still so many more things the brain can do, these examples only scratch the surface, and they add up to 7TBs. I could easily seeing the true value reaching 100TBs.
But a simple answer would be: havent you ever seen Johnny Mnemonic?
I didnt read all of it, but instead of the brain remembering quality it can store massive amounts of information, there are cases of photographics memory, audio sensitive memory, and stuff like that, where they can remember every detail of the page or CD, jsut like they are rading the page in front of them.
Your brain also has to contend with making decisions, working your whole body, and stuff like that, in fact, it can process millions of times faster than any processor for many decades, maybe centuries to come, as you brain is processing every single bit of information, every fraction of a second, the senses of ur nerves, the taste in ur mouth, the smell of something, the sight of something, this is many times more than any computer nowadays can handle.
Also, a computer doesnt have the capacity, processing power and space to make a single free choice decision, i think that would take massive amounts of space, memory and processing stuff. As a human will make a decision every millisecond or less, and its because we have been born with this trait as well as we learn to harness it throughout our lives.
We also can learn at an alarming rate compared to computers, what i mean by learn, is to take the information in, store it (this is where the computer will stop) then use it, expand on it, and develop it and make it better...
Your brain also has to contend with making decisions, working your whole body, and stuff like that, in fact, it can process millions of times faster than any processor for many decades, maybe centuries to come, as you brain is processing every single bit of information, every fraction of a second, the senses of ur nerves, the taste in ur mouth, the smell of something, the sight of something, this is many times more than any computer nowadays can handle.
Also, a computer doesnt have the capacity, processing power and space to make a single free choice decision, i think that would take massive amounts of space, memory and processing stuff. As a human will make a decision every millisecond or less, and its because we have been born with this trait as well as we learn to harness it throughout our lives.
We also can learn at an alarming rate compared to computers, what i mean by learn, is to take the information in, store it (this is where the computer will stop) then use it, expand on it, and develop it and make it better...
Its probably due to genetics and thats why ppl get mentally ill when they are older, and also their bodies are moe susceptible to foreign objects that are unhealthy.
What i have understood, is that yes ur brain is like a muscle, if everyone were to really work hard, and really do what they can to remember everything, we could tap into more of our brains function, supposedly we only use less than 10% of our processing capabilities, and we can do millions upon millions of instructions a second at the moment, so what would it be like when its 30% 50% or even 100%
Ppl have speculated when u tap into all that power, u could become telekinetic and stuff like that, i dont know for sure. But i think we do have an infinite amount of storage in our brains, and thats why we need a good amount of REM sleep everyday, because ur brain is processing everything that it has stored in that day, and discards the parts that are not very useful, or compresses them so much that all that would happen in the next few years is that they will only be flash backs instead of fully fledged memories
Who knows, but id love to have telekinetic powers w00t!
Now I have to disagree to you. Even a forcefull wash would not reduce the number of your cells by more than a couple of percents. The cells does not live and die in "explosions" so the number varies slowly. It might be true that you could lose millions of cells in a certain day, but compared to the trillions of cells in your body this isn't of any kind of significance.
finding a way to loose great numbers of fat cells could make you the richest man in the world
Calin
Well said. The computer was invented by the brain and "mimics" what it does through programing. It isn't self aware, it doesn't feel, etc. Since it is hard wired, it can't forget anything unless it has a malfunction or is told to delete something. Since it is hard wired it can do things at incredible speeds which the human brain cannot compete with. That is its strength and its weakness.
While being a step in the right direction, I personally don't believe it is even the technology that might someday give us artifical intelligence. For now the best it will at be able to do is "mimic" intelligence by being programed (by a very smart brain) to cope with all the different possible outcomes, such as a chess program does and that it is.
A computer cant process emotion.... that would probablyt be the toughest thing to break in a computer.
So emotion....
So emotion....
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