Is the West really morally superior?

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Contrary to these glorious battle stories of our involvent in europe we were johnny come latleys who jumped in last minute against a defeated foe to save what was left of our economic interests, whowouldathunkit?

Germany and Japan were already defeated on Dec 7th 1941?
whowouldathunkit?

"involvement in europe", once again your reading comprehension is nil whowouldathinkit?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Genx87

Contrary to these glorious battle stories of our involvent in europe we were johnny come latleys who jumped in last minute against a defeated foe to save what was left of our economic interests, whowouldathunkit?

Germany and Japan were already defeated on Dec 7th 1941?
whowouldathunkit?

"involvement in europe", once again your reading comprehension is nil whowouldathinkit?

I think your cluelessness is showing.
What do you define as "involvement"?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Genx87

Contrary to these glorious battle stories of our involvent in europe we were johnny come latleys who jumped in last minute against a defeated foe to save what was left of our economic interests, whowouldathunkit?

Germany and Japan were already defeated on Dec 7th 1941?
whowouldathunkit?

"involvement in europe", once again your reading comprehension is nil whowouldathinkit?

I think your cluelessness is showing.
What do you define as "involvement"?

Yes germany was done, except for one last suicidal push in battle of the bulge we took advantage of a defeated germany whos ranks were deserting to get away from the real victors of ww2 theatre, the soviets.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

 

[Genx87]

Yes germany was done, except for one last suicidal push in battle of the bulge we took advantage of a defeated germany whos ranks were deserting to get away from the real victors of ww2 theatre, the soviets.

That isnt answering my question.

What do you define as "involvement"?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

 

[Stunt]

Ask me to answer the question and you ignore me

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

There were military objectives: Destroy the rail yards, push civillians out onto the roads to hapmer troop movments, and disrupt communications. Were the costs in civillian lives too high to justify the objectives? Yes.

Also, IIRC, it was the British high command who really pushed for the raids so they usually get to take the brunt of the blame.

If you think that Dresden was the worst thing ever done to a population by the a military in WWII you are delusional.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

It is difficult to second guess why certain items were done. However, one is well able to look in hindsight at actions under a microscope. At many points in history; civilian deaths have occured due to an effort to reduce military casualties.

Germany was routing supplies through Dresden.
Cripple their rail yards and cripple the war effort.
Force the troops to move by road instead of rail. Slower and less efficient.

If the civilians were forced out of the city, then they would also hamper troop movements.

The allies did have one drastic intelligence failure. One of the trains of cattle cars contained tropps captured in the Bulge. It is estimated that less than 5% survived; they were locked into the cars. A few survived and a even smaller number were able to escape in the confusion (via first hand account)

 

[tommywishbone]

Russia & Great Britain beat the Nazis. We helped.

The US, China & Great Britain beat the Japanesse. The Russians helped.

 

[judasmachine]

morally superiority is a myth.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I guess gays, jews, gypsies, seventh day advantist, jehovah's witnesses, handicapped etc aren't equal to civilians?

And yes.. the Iraq War is definitely Western Terrorism

Fixed.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute? Or are you just in denying history blindly?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how and where I am wrong or cram it.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
morally superiority is a myth.

Yep. Ask yourself the question, "Is is the Act, or is it the motive?"

The West and AlQeada both commit similar acts and have similar motives.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Since railroads are the best way to quickly move troops and supplies, rail yards are legitimate military targets.

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

Strategic bombing didn't get into full swing until about 1942, I'm certain there was a long list of more attractive targets to start with.

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

Purely spiteful, I doubt it. Not well conceived, more likely. Biggest massacre? Hardly.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

Incorrect for reasons posted above.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

First time I have ever heard this. I would think this highly improbable as it was a night attack. Got anything to support this?

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Slow down, I only have thigh waders on.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

Proof that the bombing was concealed from the American public?

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how I am wrong.

Look up.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: SteeplerotAnd what do you dispute? Or are you just in denying history blindly?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how and where I am wrong or cram it.

Selective fact pulling colors ones perspective and destroys the validity of an arguement.
One must also look at the facts behind the decisions.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Since railroads are the best way to quickly move troops and supplies, rail yards are legitimate military targets.

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

Strategic bombing didn't get into full swing until about 1942, I'm certain there was a long list of more attractive targets to start with.

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

Purely spiteful, I doubt it. Not well conceived, more likely. Biggest massacre? Hardy.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

Incorrect for reasons posted above.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

First time I have ever heard this. I would think this highly improbable as it was a night attack. Got anything to support this?

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Slow down, I only have thigh waders on.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

Proof that the bombing was concealed from the American public?

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how I am wrong.

Look up.

1. What troop movements? We are talking about spring of 1945 here.

2. Of course there was, like actual military ones, not civillians which was the point of the dresden raid.

3. And yes, dresden was the biggest massacre in history to that point. Google is your friend, it was worse then hiroshma and nagasaki bombings.

4. Wrong, for reasons stated above, dresden had no military industry to speak of.

5. Try spending less time denying and flag-worpshipping and reading about actual history.

6. A number of vets including Vonnegut have spoken on the fact that they could recieve no information to inquirys as it was top secret even decades afterwords, it was the 1960's until documents of motives were released. And they are BS.


It is obvious it was to deny and "show off" the the soviets what our strategic forces were capable of doing, at the expense of a neutral cities citizens and one of the art/architectural capitals of europe.

In other words, terrorism.

I suggest you read "Slaughterhouse 5" written by a american POW in dresden when it happened.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I guess you would be happier with either the Japanese or the Nazis running the show?

They would'nt be running our show. WWII was the greastest mistake we ever made. Lead to hundreds of millions of deaths accross asia and europe since nothing was there to balance out russian and chineese thugs. Not to mention the 500,000 wasted american lives

Keep in mind as Russians "liberated" the Finns, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians etc etc etc. they pillaged, raped, and murdered its way westward across Europe. Chineese did the same south. The communist idealogy was allowed to suceeed in over half the world. While Hitler killed his millions, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, and Castro murdered their tens of millions.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Since railroads are the best way to quickly move troops and supplies, rail yards are legitimate military targets.

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

Strategic bombing didn't get into full swing until about 1942, I'm certain there was a long list of more attractive targets to start with.

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

Purely spiteful, I doubt it. Not well conceived, more likely. Biggest massacre? Hardy.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

Incorrect for reasons posted above.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

First time I have ever heard this. I would think this highly improbable as it was a night attack. Got anything to support this?

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Slow down, I only have thigh waders on.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

Proof that the bombing was concealed from the American public?

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how I am wrong.

Look up.

1. What troop movements? We are talking about spring of 1945 here.

Early February, just after the Battle of the Bulge. I'm sure the Allies didn't want the Germans moving reinforcements into the area and prolonging the war.

2. Of course there was, like actual military ones, not civillians which was the point of the dresden raid.

Target priority can shift in the course of war. Other targets like fuel refineries, steel plants, ordnance factories, and the like had priority until the course of war bumped Dresden up the list.

3. And yes, dresden was the biggest massacre in history to that point. Google is your friend, it was worse then hiroshma and nagasaki bombings.

If you mean largest death toll from one single day and single military operation, you might be right. Though it was certainly eclipsed by the Tokyo firebombing a few months later prior to the atomic bombings.

4. Wrong, for reasons stated above, dresden had no military industry to speak of.

Transportation and communication hubs are vaild military targets in a time of war.

5. Try spending less time denying and flag-worpshipping and reading about actual history.

I asked for something, anything, to back up you claim but instead you chose to insult me. I consider this point refuted.

6. A number of vets including Vonnegut have spoken on the fact that they could recieve no information to inquirys as it was top secret even decades afterwords, it was the 1960's until records were released.

The military is (as most are) notoriously slow about declassifying information. The results of the raid were fairly well known to the public prior to that .

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute? Or are you just in denying history blindly?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how and where I am wrong or cram it.

I am still waiting for you to define "involvement".

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Since railroads are the best way to quickly move troops and supplies, rail yards are legitimate military targets.

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

Strategic bombing didn't get into full swing until about 1942, I'm certain there was a long list of more attractive targets to start with.

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

Purely spiteful, I doubt it. Not well conceived, more likely. Biggest massacre? Hardy.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

Incorrect for reasons posted above.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

First time I have ever heard this. I would think this highly improbable as it was a night attack. Got anything to support this?

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Slow down, I only have thigh waders on.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

Proof that the bombing was concealed from the American public?

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how I am wrong.

Look up.

1. What troop movements? We are talking about spring of 1945 here.

Early February, just after the Battle of the Bulge. I'm sure the Allies didn't want the Germans moving reinforcements into the area and prolonging the war.

2. Of course there was, like actual military ones, not civillians which was the point of the dresden raid.

Target priority can shift in the course of war. Other targets like fuel refineries, steel plants, ordnance factories, and the like had priority until the course of war bumped Dresden up the list.

3. And yes, dresden was the biggest massacre in history to that point. Google is your friend, it was worse then hiroshma and nagasaki bombings.

If you mean largest death toll from one single day and single military operation, you might be right. Though it was certainly eclipsed by the Tokyo firebombing a few months later prior to the atomic bombings.

4. Wrong, for reasons stated above, dresden had no military industry to speak of.

Transportation and communication hubs are vaild military targets in a time of war.

5. Try spending less time denying and flag-worpshipping and reading about actual history.

I asked for something, anything, to back up you claim but instead you chose to insult me. I consider this point refuted.

6. A number of vets including Vonnegut have spoken on the fact that they could recieve no information to inquirys as it was top secret even decades afterwords, it was the 1960's until records were released.

The military is (as most are) notoriously slow about declassifying information. The results of the raid were fairly well known to the public prior to that .

Funny your "refuting" my points sound exactly like what the taliban says of 9/11.

Same thing, like I said you are nothing but a terrorist supporter.

One willing to obtusificate history at that.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

I am still waiting for you to define "involvement".

Do you have a point to add already? Or are you just upping your post count?

You never have been the brightest one in here, what is your obsession with asking me this?

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dresden was also a marshalling yard for rail stock being used by Germany.

Big cities have trains running through them, your point?

Then why was it considered neutral for the 6 years of the war before?

The firebombing was nothing less then a spiteful act and the biggest massacre the world had seen.

No military reason, no real goal bombing peoples familys on rooftops and boiling children, just pure malice.

They even had fighters swoop in and strafe fleeing civillians. Ahh, those glorious ww2 heros.

I bet they are proud. Now you see guys in iraq complaining they cant shoot children and randomly shooting at civillians, but of course this is glourious and honorable to you.

Thats war right? you people are sick.

You defend a government and military that makes osama look like a pathetic whelp in the history of terrorist bombing.

At least the brits gave major hell to the leader of the forces who conducted the raids on dresden, the us kept the whole thing secret for decades, big surprise.

And still to this day "patriots" try to justify it, little taliban types of the usa is all you are.

Can you back any of that up? I'd hate to let facts get in the way of your un-informed ranting or anything, but researching the bombing might shed a little light on what and why it happened. I doubt that you will though.

And what do you dispute? Or are you just in denying history blindly?

I know plenty of ww2, enlighten me then on how and where I am wrong or cram it.

Wiki says you are wrong. Now do your part - insult somebody or disappear.

Later on 14th from 12:17 until 12:30 311 American B-17s dropped 771 tons of bombs on Dresden, with the railway yards as their aiming point. "Part of the American Mustang-fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos"[15]. There are reports that civilians fleeing the firestorm engulfing Dresden in February 1945 were strafed by American aircraft, but these claims have been refuted by recent work by the historian Götz Bergander. [16][17]. During this raid there was a brief, but possibly intense dogfight between American and German fighters around Dresden, some rounds may have struck the ground and been mistaken for strafing fire

 

[Steeplerot]

Funny, but eyewitnesses WHO WERE THERE say different, regarless of what "wiki" says ONE historian "recently" said :roll: