Is the US turning Japanese?

dud

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,635
73
91
I found this rather short article interesting as I've been recently thinking about the similarities between the US today and Japan of the 80s:

"Is the US turning Japanese?

Americans may have to get used to a slow-growth economy.



U.S. consumers are now living in a world much like the one the Japanese have been living in for the past 20 years: a world with limited access to credit, little or no appreciation in asset values, slow growth, large government deficits, and a rickety banking system.


The headline story about Japan is that the bubble economy of the 1980s was popped by central bank policy, and through bad policy choices the country has remained mired in deflation and low growth ever since.


That sounds like something we Americans may experience. The point is, though, that people are adaptable and can learn to cope with a no-growth or slow-growth economy.


The Japanese were the envy of the world (and bugaboo of American pundits) during the so-called Bubble Economy of the 1980s, when excess savings and low rates drove a huge run-up in asset prices. Then the bubble burst, with the Nikkei falling from a peak close of 38,915 to a low of 7,054. (It now sits at around 9,000 after 20 years.) In addition, prime real estate has fallen to as little as 10% of 1989 prices.


You would think that 22 years of super-low interest rates and no significant asset appreciation would result in a miserable society, but no visitor to Japan can escape the fact that it remains a very rich and harmonious country. The Japanese have gracefully adapted to a world of slow growth and diminished expectations, aided by their aversion to borrowing money and their habits of thrift.


Americans are not at all like Japanese, but whether or not we have it in us to adjust to a new normal of less leverage and low returns on investment, we are not going to escape the consequences of our own bubble. The U.S. economy was driven for more than two decades by an oversize financial sector leading up to the panic of 2008. The financial sector grew by increasing the availability of consumer credit and lowering its quality, especially in mortgage lending.


Now the U.S. financial services industry is being cut down to size by regulation and litigation, with no end in sight -- a process that was probably long overdue. Banks are learning how dangerous it is to lend money to anyone who actually needs it, especially consumers. It is going to get worse, not better, for households seeking credit. The real choice is whether to live within your means with a good heart, as the Japanese do, or hope the credit bubble can be reinflated.


I would not put my hopes on the latter. "
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,070
1
0
No, US economy is much larger and significantly more influential to the whole world than the Japanese economy. On a global scale, US has more economic levers and controls than anybody else. Hence why the struggles in US would be more "dynamic" than the struggles that Japan is going through, for better or worse. On the other hand, sure, there likely to be some similarities with Japan, such as limited access to credit.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,485
9,707
136
Anyone trying to re-inflate the bubble should be rocketed aboard a shuttle to space, then thrown out the air lock.

Attempting to continue to live beyond our means now would put the entire society at risk of collapse. It would mean the cost of many lives. The means to inflate it are by printing money and issuing trillions of new debt. Success in doing that will be a short reprieve from reality. Consequences to follow.

Do we really want to go back to 2008, or earlier, where our lives are built on a deck of cards? Built on a lie?

We are Japan now, we must make do with less and accept that fact. Or grasp for a poison that'll one day take everything.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Part of what has fueled the U.S. economy is our over dependance on credit.

Sooner or later the credit is going to run out.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,835
37
91
and too many people have already screwed up their credit as more and more are the process of doing so.
within a year or less, one can get so far behind, their pretty much screwed for life if they don't take all the necessary steps to get it into shape, which isn't too easy.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Maybe they are in better shape because they haven't spent trillions on defense during the last 20 years?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
There's always slow growth in the aftermath of any looting spree, and it doesn't help if people can be convinced to identify the perps as benefactors.

When fewer and fewer Americans are employed to do anything productive, the only way to make money off of 'em is from interest, but they probably wouldn't borrow nearly so much if income hadn't shifted hugely to the ownership class in the first place... Substituting credit for wages & govt borrowing for revenues has concealed that shift quite well, particularly when it could be represented as "growth". When necessary deleveraging threatens to reveal the scam for what it is, what it's been all along, rev up the finger pointing machine, blame anybody other than the winners for having rigged the game & created so many losers...
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
America will be much worse off than the Japanese because the latter are not indebted to countries to foreign to them and because America has much more to lose when the spring breaks.

I can't understand how anyone with a half-way functioning brain or better could like all of this centralization of power, the inflation, and public spending.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
America will be much worse off than the Japanese because the latter are not indebted to countries to foreign to them and because America has much more to lose when the spring breaks.

I can't understand how anyone with a half-way functioning brain or better could like all of this centralization of power, the inflation, and public spending.

Besides China, who else is the U.S. indebted to?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
That article makes no mention that Japan used to get the lion’s share of Exports to America which slowly got nibbled away at by Korea, India and China.

Some things we can learn from... Japan spent 8 years and Trillions of dollars trying to "Stimulate" their economy in the 90's and it didn't work. It is now refered to as the lost decade. There is plenty you can read up on about Japan's public works projects.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
Japan lost decade?

It seems popular to compare Japan's Lost Decade to the current US situation ... But there are also contrarian views such as those presented by the Economist which calls the term "Japan's lost decade a misnomer".

From my perspectives, the comparison breaks down due to multiple distinct differences. Here are a few.

Declining Population
Japan has a declining population. Japan's birth rate is 1.3 children per woman. This, combined with no significant immigration, means that their population is declining. Of course, 98% of children born in Japan have two married parents.

GDP Comparisons Valid?
And while the US press likes to report that Japan's GDP is falling. Its GDP per capita is rising. And while it is popular to refer to Japan's lost decade, I don't know anyone that has visited there and thought that the society looked anything but prosperous.

And while Japan's unemployment rate is higher than it was in 2000, it is still only half that of the US unemployment rate.

Homogeneous?
Another difference is that Japan is a homogeneous society with less than 2% minority or immigrant populations. According to the Japan Times, Japan doesn't even have an official immigration policy. Likewise, Japan doesn't have anti-discrimination laws either. For example, if you want to bar Americans from your establishment, that is, legally, fine and morally acceptable.

Open Society?
And, of course, for a significant portion of their history (1639-1853), Japan operated as a closed society with Foreigners refused admittance and Japanese unable to leave. That is, Japan was closed until Commodore Perry sailed his war ships into Toyko Harbor and forced the Shogon to sign a "Treaty of Peace." In my history books, this was referred to as "The Opening of Japan." Japanese history books refer to this as the "day of the black ships".

Still, a lot to admire. For a country that has a land mass the size of California lacking in significant natural resources, to become one of the world's top economies is an amazing accomplishment. I think that we could learn a lot from Japan.

While we could do much, much, much worse, I wouldn't expect to be turning Japanese anytime soon.

Uno
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Came here to say this.

The truth is that once everyone is a professional, manufacturing is neutered and growth levels out you have now where to go but stagnant.

While that might be a true statement, it has nothing to do with our current economic situation.

Our heavy dependence on "growth" or the illusion thereof is because we allow entirely too great a share of after tax national income to go to the very few at the top o' the heap. It's not like that actually trickles down other than in right wing fairy tales, or that those with extremely high incomes use it to support their lifestyles & the general economy. In terms of lifestyle, Mitt paying 15% in federal taxes or 35% wouldn't make any difference at all. Taxes don't make him "suffer" except when he's shedding crocodile tears on his balance sheets.

Other than the need to account for population increase, "Growth" is largely what has to be put in to compensate for what they take out...

So, uhh, give 'em a tax break, another one, so that they'll "create jobs", huh?

Like that's ever worked, or that it ever will.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Put some of the people like Soros in the rocket. People that purposely try to manipulate money markets to make profit have no place in society. The Government needs to limit their involvement in the market. If you have enough money it is possible to cause a collapse of the economy of a country. This is like what Iran does. Iran starts making threats against its neighbors, the USA, and even the EU to attempt to make the price of oil rise. They are just Market Manipulators. Somehow we need to have a conversation with people like them and tell them if they make Idle threats that they will be attacked killed and destroyed. I think American Oil does the same thing. I think they are purposely slowing down gasoline production when they see the price go down in an attempt to keep the prices high.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,697
6,257
126
Put some of the people like Soros in the rocket. People that purposely try to manipulate money markets to make profit have no place in society. The Government needs to limit their involvement in the market. If you have enough money it is possible to cause a collapse of the economy of a country. This is like what Iran does. Iran starts making threats against its neighbors, the USA, and even the EU to attempt to make the price of oil rise. They are just Market Manipulators. Somehow we need to have a conversation with people like them and tell them if they make Idle threats that they will be attacked killed and destroyed. I think American Oil does the same thing. I think they are purposely slowing down gasoline production when they see the price go down in an attempt to keep the prices high.

Individuals are to blame, but Government needs to get out of the way?

Wut wut?? :confused:
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
My own opinion is that each advanced economy has to be contend with slow growth since every area of economic expansion had been used up. An example of economic expansion would be highway projects in the 50s. China is expanding like crazy simply because it's under developed at this moment, there are many unexplored areas of expansions left.

Japan and US on the other hand will have to create new areas of expansion for the future. Which one you ask? I cannot say. Maybe green energy, nano tech, stem cell etc. or be contend with slow growth. Either way people will survive.