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Is the US great because it was founded on Christian principles? (edited title)

R

Riprorin

Banned
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

Patrick Henry

God Bless America

Edit title
 
George Washington

"Direct my thoughts, words, and work...daily more and more into the likeness of thy son Jesus Christ." - George Washington

"In addition to the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian." - George Washington May 2, 1778 at Valley Forge, PA

"[Love] ought to be under the guidance of reason, for although we cannot avoid first impressions, we may assuredly place them under guard." George Washington to Eleanor Parker Curtis, his adopted granddaughter, January 16, 1775.

"If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be at any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; though this may in one instance be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. . . Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on our minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."

"It having pleased Almighty Ruler of the Universe to defend the cause of the United American States, and finally to raise up a powerful friend among the princes of the earth, to establish our liberty and independence upon a lasting foundation, it becomes us to set apart a day for gratefully acknowledging the divine goodness, and celebrating the important event which we owe to His divine intervention."
 
do you mean officially or practically?

btw, several of the founding fathers were deists, not necessary christian. old ben comes to mind.
 
According to the Supreme Court(s)...

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation (State or National) because this is a religious people ... this is a Christian nation."

United Sates Supreme Court - 1892


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"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being ... When the state encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs. To hold that it may not would be to find in the Constitution a requirement that the government show a callous indifference to religious groups. That would be preferring those who believe in no religion over those who do believe ... We find no Constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion to and to throw it's weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence."
United States Supreme Court - 1952


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"Christianity is a part of the common law of the land, with liberty of conscience to all. It has always been so recognized ... if Christianity is a part of the common reference to the principles of right and wrong ... it is the foundation of those morals and manners upon which our society is formed; it is there basis. Remove this and they would fall."
South Carolina Supreme Court


According to the Supreme Courts Justices...

"... Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

"National prosperity can neither be obtained nor preserved without the favor of Providence."

John Jay
first Chief Justice to the U.S. Supreme Court


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"The people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice ... We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors [other religions] ... It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law ... proven by the volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of utterances that this is a Christian nation. We find everywhere a clear recognition of this same truth."

Chancellor Kent
the great commentator on American law,
Chief Justice to the Supreme Court of New York

 


<< Supposedly.
Then you get people like gopunk.
😉 😀 >>



i'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but i'll act indignant anyways

how dare you... how DARE you?!

😉
 
No one is arguing with you Riprorin, I don't think you need to spend all those hours at the law library digging up old SC cases anymore 😀
 
<< Is the US a Christian Nation? >>

I freaking hope not! For centuries, Christians have been responsible for some of the most heinous crimes against those who don't believe as they do throughout history... as have all other religions I know of.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to answer questions about the unknown, but at least in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer. Any group that thinks all learning stopped several hundred, or several thousand, years ago, despite newer perceptions and observations to the contrary, is sick.

IMHO, religion is just another political power structure. It's primary goals are self preservation and gaining more power by over more people. The only difference between a religion and a cult is the size of the group.
 
We are not a Christian Nation to begin with. The fact that several of the framers were Christian does not mean that they build the US as a Christian nation. Thomas Paine and David Hume, the two men from whom most of the ideas for our goverment can trace their roots, were non-Christians. Paine was a Deist, and Hume was an atheist.

Also, from the Treaty of Tripoli: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." [emphasis added]

It would be ignorant to claim that many of the ideas incorporated in the American Constitution are not held in common with Christianity. However, commonality does not necessarily indicate a causal relationship.

Regardless, this is beating a dead horse. This has been discussed ad nauseum here, and another thread, especially one presented in such a dogmatic manner, isn't likely to accomplish much. Still, I do agree with you on a lot of other subjects, and there is always something to be said in favour of those who are willing to voice their convictions in a hostile environment.

ZV

EDIT: Changed my first sentence in response to the title change.
 


<< We are a post Christian nation. 🙁😱 >>

We're a Post-Modern nation... even though most the "virtues" and "morality" of our nation are Puritanically rooted, I think most people don't know or care... Harvey's statement is a good example. Work ethic, equality for all, liberty, freedom of religion and tolerance... all that 'good' stuff came from the colonials.

Our "roots" are definitely Christian for the most part, many of the founding fathers were "deists" or agnostic. But a good chunk were deeply religious too. Thomas Jefferson was a deist too, not exactly one to believe in Christ.
 


<< "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." >>

Patrick Henry was a noteworthy figure in Early America. Henry was a patriot, statesman, lawyer, Governor of Virginia, and an impassioned public speaker. As an Antifederalist, Henry provided an eloquent voice of dissent, which he demonstrated in delivering the first address to the Continental Congress.

However, the Constitution was primarily the work of Federalists such as Madison and Hamilton, and like any American, Henry was entitled to his own opinion.
 
Harvey, clearly, great evil has been done in the name of religion. However, is it logical to judge Christianity on the basis of what some self-proclaimed "Christians" have done? Wouldn't it be wiser to examine the life and words of Christ and the teaching of the New Testament before you condemn Christianity?

Matthew 5:1-11, 38-48

The Beatitudes

1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them saying:
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[7] 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[8] and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Consider the life of Christ. He was sentanced to death on trumped up charges. He was beaten and forced to drag a heavy wooden cross through the crowded city streets. Then he was crucified on a hill outside the city, which was also used as a dump. While they waited for Jesus to die, the soldiers tossed dice and gambled for his cloak. But Jesus forgave the priests and elders and soldiers who crucified him. While he was on the cross he prayed: "Father, forgive them."

Consider also Paul's admonition in Romans

Romans 12:9-21

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[3] Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[4] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[5] 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



 
We have freedom of religion so that we are not *forced* to worship or be beholden to any particular religion.
 


<< then why do you have 'in god we trust' on your money? >>


I think the Supreme Court commented on this, I could be wrong though. Since God isn't considered solely tied to any one religion, and many religions worship "god", it is purely neutral in that respect. Of course this isn't commenting for the reaction that the atheists of the world would have, but a lot of them need to lighten up when it comes to hearing the word god. I'm agnostic, I can't stand the die-hard religious freaks, but I also can't stand many of the die-hard atheists, many of them are too forceful of their beliefs on others. Aside from my commentary, America is great not really from Christian Principles, but because of Democracy and the fact that any person from any religion has a right to freely practice in the United States without worrying about being jailed (China) or executed. Of course there are some cases that freak me about a bit, such as Waco. I'm not entirely informed about what happened there, but as a whole, America is great because it was founded on Democratic, secular principles where any person could worship what they wished to freely. This is why America is a great melting pot of sorts. Unlike many other nations on this planet, you can pretty much find representation in your own hometown from every corner of the world.

That is my take on it atleast. If someone can find any type of ruling about what the Supreme Court said about "in God We Trust", then let me know if my attention on the issue was correct or not.
 
NART


Our founding fathers were a mixture of deists, atheists, and theists. The Treaty of Tripoli is a perfect example of how the U.S. was designed (secular nation).

Members of the Supreme court can spout off their religious feelings, but their words are their words. It is not law. It is not something we have to abide. They can voice their opinions all they want.

"In Gawd We Trust" on our money? How?

I have no choice but to use our religious money. I live in America. I do, however, take a black marker and cross out "In God We Trust." One can question the legality of my activity.


Article 331, Title 18 of the U.S. Code prohibits defacement of currency only if it is performed with such deceptive intent, or the depicted face value of the currency is altered in a significant way.

I am not trying to alter the face value. I just strike out the evil markings....
 
The US wasn't founded on Christian principles; it was founded on Enlightenment principles. To get a good idea of the religious thought behind the founding of America, read Locke's Letter concerning toleration (do a google search). To get a good idea of the thoughts of the founding fathers, read the federalist papers (though, to be fair, these were post-revolutionary), the annals of the second continental congress (tedious), or Gordon Wood's Radicalism of the American Revolution or Pauline Maier's From Resistance to Revolution.

Patrick Henry wasn't invited to the Constitutional party because he was too radical; he thought the US was going to turn into a monarchist state.

My new theory is that the American Revolution was a success because it was a militarily won political revolution in which the military and political aspects were more or less divergent until Washington became President; even then he was taking "suggestion" from Hamilton. Anyway, Washington didn't do much for the creation of the Articles, the Declaration, or the Constitution; that is, he was well away from the ideological origins of the war.

Zemnervolt is absolutely right about the treaty with the Barbary States, though to be fair, there are a couple references to them as godless heathens (not in such words). Anyway, I think you'd have a much easier time arguing that Mass. bay was founded as a city on a hill, and this inspired the later Revolutionary idea of a Republic on a hill; that it, separate from stupid European interests. I'll disagree with you because Virginia was founded as an economic colony, and its Revolution was just as ideological as that of Mass, but the case can be made. You could also argue effectively that the US has been a success because of the Protestant ethic, but again, limited success imho.

As for "in god we trust," in the seventeenth/eighteenth century your word was everything, and the going belief (read Locke) was simply that a man who didn't believe in God didn't feel obligated to hold his word.

After the Revolution, in fact, there was a successful bill based on revolutionary ideals in Virginia for religious freedom.

So anyway, French Enlightenment thought, the ideas of the Glorious Revolution, et al more than religion.
 


<<

<< The US is a secular nation...and that's the way it should always be. >>

then why do you have 'in god we trust' on your money? >>

While "In God we trust" was printed on some money prior to the mid-1950's, it became universal only after a push in the 1950's by a Catholic group known as the Knights of Columbus. They lobbied before Congress and successfully had the national motto changed from "E Pluribus Unum" ("From Many, One") to "In God we trust". It is more than worth noting that this coincided with the Red Scare and McCarthyism when anyone who might have voted against the Catholic lobby risked being branded a "godless communist", effectively political suicide at the time.

The Knights of Columbus are also responsible for inserting the phrase "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance. The original Pledge ran "I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.". The phrase "the flag of the United States of America" replaced "my flag" in the early 1900's to combat any possible confusion over to which country "my flag" belonged.

ZV
 
Those who want a religious gov't want THEIR religion, otherwise "it ain't right".
But when people can't even agree what the "official" version of the Lord's Prayer would be, you begin to understand what even the smartest religious leaders understand:
religion and government in the same bed is very very bad for all concerned.
 
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