Is the solution to poverty is simply to provide all citizens a basic income?

[Pray To Jesus]

Citizens only vs. all registered tax payers?

 

[Texashiker]

Is the solution to poverty is simply to provide all citizens a basic income.

The solution to poverty is to abolish greed.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

The solution to poverty is to abolish greed.

That would work! No humans = no poverty. Spare all humans the pain of living, relief all our suffering, by killing us all. It's a common SciFi plot.

 

[nehalem256]

That would work! No humans = no poverty.

Technically if your only goal was to eliminate poverty you would only have to get rid of the poor people.

I believe it was called a modest proposal

 

[chucky2]

Sadly I've proposed a stimulus suggestion like this and one of our connected resident Lefties has taken to ignoring my requests for status on it.

My problem with such an idea is it allows even less incentive to do real long term self supporting work than our already F'd up social services provide now, which is saying something.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Sadly I've proposed a stimulus suggestion like this and one of our connected resident Lefties has taken to ignoring my requests for status on it.

My problem with such an idea is it allows even less incentive to do real long term self supporting work than our already F'd up social services provide now, which is saying something.

Basic income is low ($5-8k/yr). There will be incentive for people to seek extra income through work.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Technically if your only goal was to eliminate poverty you would only have to get rid of the poor people.

I believe it was called a modest proposal

Poverty is relative. Poor is relative. I don't think your solution is valid.

 

[Atreus21]

Trade has been the greatest tool used against poverty.

 

[nehalem256]

Basic income is low ($5-8k/yr). There will be incentive for people to seek extra income through work.

So if the basic income is below the poverty line how would it solve poverty?:hmm:

 

[zinfamous]

The solution to poverty:

What would Jesus do?

 

[Pray To Jesus]

So if the basic income is below the poverty line how would it solve poverty?:hmm:

Good question.

A basic income is a guaranteed safety, a base one can depend on when trying to improve one's situation.

 

[chucky2]

Basic income is low ($5-8k/yr). There will be incentive for people to seek extra income through work.

But will there be? Now tack on housing assistance, medical subsidies, food subsidies, all other state and Fed services paid for by other net taxpayers (and of course the ever always borrowing), electrical subsidies, plus everything else they'll be scamming, and someone with a non-middle class/upper class upbringing might just decide sucking on the teat of Gov handout long term is worth it over working for the same standard of living.

Heck, they do that now without this added basic income.

 

[Atreus21]

The solution to poverty:

What would Jesus do?

Feed the hungry, clothe the naked.

 

[sm625]

The most effective solution to poverty is and has always been war. The powers that be are actively working on creating an enemy that requires foot soldiers to combat it, not drones or other expensive technology. Once they figure that out the war will begin. Imagine a million chinese with EMP guns. Or greeks, or spaniards...

 

[berzerker60]

But will there be? Now tack on housing assistance, medical subsidies, food subsidies, all other state and Fed services paid for by other net taxpayers (and of course the ever always borrowing), electrical subsidies, plus everything else they'll be scamming, and someone with a non-middle class/upper class upbringing might just decide sucking on the teat of Gov handout long term is worth it over working for the same standard of living.

Heck, they do that now without this added basic income.

On the other hand, real world examples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

From January 2008 to December 2009, a pilot project with a basic income grant was implemented in the Namibian village of Omitara (or Otjivero-Omitara) by the Namibian Basic Income Grant Coalition.[18][19] It was mainly funded by a German Protestant church, by individual contributions of German and Namibian citizens and by contributions of the German Ministry for Cooperation. The amount paid out per head was N$ 100 (around US$ 12).
Six months after the launch, the project has been found to significantly reduce child malnutrition and increase school attendance. It was also found to increase the community's income significantly above the actual amount from the grants as it allowed citizens to partake in more productive economic activities.[20][21] The project team states that this increase in economic activity contradicts critics' claims that a basic income would lead to laziness and dependency.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

Mincome was an experimental Canadian basic income project that was held in Dauphin, Manitoba during the 1970s. The project, funded jointly by the Manitoba provincial government and the Canadian federal government, began with a news release on February 22, 1974, and was closed down in 1979. The purpose of this experiment was to determine whether a guaranteed, unconditional annual income caused disincentive to work for the recipients, and how great such a disincentive would be.
It allowed every family unit to receive a minimum cash benefit. The results showed a modest impact on labor markets, with working hours dropping one percent for men, three percent for wives, and five percent for unmarried women.[1] However, some have argued these drops may be artificially low because participants knew the guaranteed income was temporary.[2] These decreases in hours worked may be seen as offset by the opportunity cost of more time for family and education. Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education.[3][4]
A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget (/fɔrˈʒeɪ/) conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011.[4][5] She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[6] Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.[7][8]

 

[boomerang]

Would a person be eligible at birth? Would convicted Felons still be drawing their .gov pay? Would this money be taxed? Will it be indexed to inflation? Can it be spent on anything one wishes? Like a Heroin habit for example? Where will this money come from? How will it be distributed? Will it phase out at a certain income level? Would that be "fair"? Have you done the math on this? Is there a guarantee until a certain age? If so, can those funds be inherited?

 

[Atreus21]

On the other hand, real world examples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

This is not far removed from Friedman's negative income tax idea.

 

[BUnit1701]

Where does the money come from? If the money is coming from churches/charities/private donors as in the Namibian example above, I can see the potential for good. If a government has to either print or redistribute to make it happen, it will not be sustainable.

 

[Moonbeam]

We do not value what we do not earn. The only thing we have of value is capacity. Capacity is fostered by faith in the self and that is built by achievement and by deprogramming negative feelings. The tunnel can be dug via these two ends, self understanding and self expression via the application of skill. Folk who are self confident via attitude and ability can usually make their own way.

Let us direct our efforts therefore first to provide life sustenance to those who do not have it, and then from there to work towards these two other things.

Gifts must be given to those who can't gift themselves by disguising them as rewards for personal achievement, it doesn't much matter what the effort is. Employ the poor at something that makes the world better to live in. Help them heal damage that was done to them.

 

[Moonbeam]

The solution to poverty:

What would Jesus do?

He promised them heaven for faith and died for their sins. Somebody willing to give the ultimate gift isn't somebody I would laugh at.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

There's no such thing as "abolishing poverty". If everyone is rich, then nobody is rich.

 

[werepossum]

We do not value what we do not earn. The only thing we have of value is capacity. Capacity is fostered by faith in the self and that is built by achievement and by deprogramming negative feelings. The tunnel can be dug via these two ends, self understanding and self expression via the application of skill. Folk who are self confident via attitude and ability can usually make their own way.

Let us direct our efforts therefore first to provide life sustenance to those who do not have it, and then from there to work towards these two other things.

Gifts must be given to those who can't gift themselves by disguising them as rewards for personal achievement, it doesn't much matter what the effort is. Employ the poor at something that makes the world better to live in. Help them heal damage that was done to them.

Well said, Moonie.

 

[zinfamous]

He promised them heaven for faith and died for their sins. Somebody willing to give the ultimate gift isn't somebody I would laugh at.

I'm not laughing. I actually tend to agree with Jesus in most things.

...except for that whole god thing, but whatever.

 

[chucky2]

On the other hand, real world examples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

You are comparing Nambia and the culture and realities there, to current US?

You are comparing 1970's culture, and Canada, to current US?

Btw, before you (or someone else) goes on a bender against me, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. But certain things would have to become a Reality before I'd be favor of supporting something like this.

 

[berzerker60]

You are comparing Nambia and the culture and realities there, to current US?

You are comparing 1970's culture, and Canada, to current US?

Btw, before you (or someone else) goes on a bender against me, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. But certain things would have to become a Reality before I'd be favor of supporting something like this.

Yes, I'm using the data we have available, which isn't a perfect fit but at least eliminates some universalist counterarguments. Would a minimum income necessarily work in the US, based on those examples? Of course not - that would be too broad of a claim. But is it plausible that it would work? I think so. Would a minimum income necessarily generate laziness and dependency? Absolutely not. That runs counter to the evidence, unless you see a compelling reason that the poorest subsistence-level workers in the US are so different from subsistence-level workers elsewhere. The basic principles are the same - give people more freedom to go to school, care for their children, and take some risks in entrepreneurship and trying new jobs instead of being terrified of losing their second full-time dead-end job they need to put food on the table, and you see benefits.

It wouldn't be a cure-all, nor would I want to see us leap right into a national system like that without maybe trying it out at the state level first. I think it would potentially be a great way to do things, though, and would be fine with getting rid of welfare, food stamps, etc. if it were a livably high basic income, a la Friedman.

Basically, my ideal is an economy where people can take risks (start a business, more education instead of immediately working, run the health risks of being a human being) without risking cyclical poverty and death.