Is the Selective Service System unconstitutional?

[Anarchist420]

The thing is, is that a draft has never been necessary and never will be necessary. The 5 times (Civil War, Korean War, Vietnam War, WWII, WWI) it was invoked was for foreign intervention, not to provide security for the U.S. I can't think of a just conflict that the U.S. has been in.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Although the 13th amendment issue is settled, I'd like to see a modern suit on 14th amendment grounds. Since objectors are allowed, and women are not required, nor men born in certain years, nor persons over a certain age, it seems like there'd be a solid equal protection clause argument to be made.

 

[JTsyo]

The thing is, is that a draft has never been necessary and never will be necessary. The 5 times (Civil War, Korean War, Vietnam War, WWII, WWI) it was invoked was for foreign intervention, not to provide security for the U.S. I can't think of a just conflict that the U.S. has been in.

OK how is the Civil War a foreign war?
Was this not US soil?

 

[nonlnear]

OK how is the Civil War a foreign war?

It was CSA soil.

 

[Zorba]

Agreed, but one could certainly argue that in a war, two things are reasonably certain:

- If a draft is necessary, it's because combat roles are the most needed.
- Men are better than women at that (generally).

You draft women to fill the support roles, which frees up men for the combat jobs.

 

[Zebo]

Yes but you have old rich people in black robes who are voting on it. They sure as hell aint going to battle. Check out those tortured opinions on first page.

This issue reminds me in a way of cities that are bankrupt due to pensions consuming 80% of receipts and pensioned judge takes pensions off the table in bankruptcy proceedings. CYA.

 

[StageLeft]

However, the courts have ruled that the intent of the 13th was never to abolish the draft, and that serving in the military, even against your will, is not involuntary servitude.

LOL. Of course it is. Now whether that was the original intent, perhaps not, but of course being given a gun and told to storm a ditch can be every bit if not often worse a servitude than cleaning a barn and being paid only in food and board.

It's not a punishment, it's a reward for being a US citizen.

Lulz. Your reward for being a US citizen is being told that against your will here's a gun now go storm that machine gun nest? BTW, I'm not a citizen and still had to sign up for it when I got my green card.

 

[jackschmittusa]

ProfJohn

"Ever notice that you can be drafted into the Army or Navy but not the Marines or Air Force?"

When I enlisted in the '60s, you could be drafted into the Army and the Marines, but the Air Force and Navy met their force requirements through voluntary enlistments. Had they not, the draft would have extended to them as well. That's all there was to it.

 

[JTsyo]

LOL. Of course it is. Now whether that was the original intent, perhaps not, but of course being given a gun and told to storm a ditch can be every bit if not often worse a servitude than cleaning a barn and being paid only in food and board.Lulz. Your reward for being a US citizen is being told that against your will here's a gun now go storm that machine gun nest? BTW, I'm not a citizen and still had to sign up for it when I got my green card.

Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?

You should sign up and save the Galaxy.

 

[manowar821]

Then by the same reasoning filling out a census would be considered the same. How about Voter registration as well?

This is the stupidest post I ever saw.

I won't be filling out a census, nor would I involuntarily serve. And whats all this about voter registration?

 

[cwjerome]

I don't know about SS but an actual Draft seems pretty anti-American to me. The idea that our lives belong to the government (since this government can force us to sacrifice our lives in battle) is backwards... the government belongs to us. The idea that the government grants us our right to live (and can take it away forcefully) is backwards... we own our right to live and the government protects that right.

It's the most glaring contradiction I can imagine.

 

[Infohawk]

Being compelled to serve in the military is as old as democracy itself. They did it in the Greek city-states and in the Roman republic. Democracy is not about everyone doing whatever the hell they want. It's about following rules and getting a vote in return.

 

[Linflas]

Being compelled to serve in the military is as old as democracy itself. They did it in the Greek city-states and in the Roman republic. Democracy is not about everyone doing whatever the hell they want. It's about following rules and getting a vote in return.

But they never did it in the United States until the Civil War. We successfully fought a revolution with a total volunteer army so I imagine the founders would have found the concept of a draft repugnant. There may be perfectly valid reasons for instituting a draft, but rather than crapping all over the Constitution with twists of logic as to how forcing someone to serve in the military does not violate the 13th Amendment the process of amending the Constitution to provide for a draft would be the proper way to institute it in my opinion.

 

[cwjerome]

Being compelled to serve in the military is as old as democracy itself. They did it in the Greek city-states and in the Roman republic. Democracy is not about everyone doing whatever the hell they want. It's about following rules and getting a vote in return.

An appeal to tradition isn't exactly a strong argument, especially in the area of human rights.

Besides, your overall gist is what I was talking about in my first post above... the attitude that the all-knowing, all-kindly state will graciously grant us the right to vote if we simply follow the rules. How special.

I know what you're getting at but it reeks of statist undertones. I don't know what you're talking about when you say "everyone doing whatever the hell they want" but I'm talking about the fundamental principle that people are born with certain rights and it's the government's job to protect them, not take ownership of them from us. It's We The People, the Consent of the Governed... this idea that the government is subservient to us, not the other way around.

 

[nonlnear]

I know what you're getting at but it reeks of statist undertones.

Pretty much everybody who doesn't use the term statist liberally in political discussion has political views which reek of statism. You can't hold it against them.

 

[SunSamurai]

The SSS BS.

A country that has to force its people to defend it in war is a country where its people want to fight against it in war.


Also fuck the court systems trying to tell people when involuntary servitude is or not. I'LL tell you when im not voluntary. Bastards.

 

[Infohawk]

An appeal to tradition isn't exactly a strong argument, especially in the area of human rights.

Besides, your overall gist is what I was talking about in my first post above... the attitude that the all-knowing, all-kindly state will graciously grant us the right to vote if we simply follow the rules. How special.

I know what you're getting at but it reeks of statist undertones. I don't know what you're talking about when you say "everyone doing whatever the hell they want" but I'm talking about the fundamental principle that people are born with certain rights and it's the government's job to protect them, not take ownership of them from us. It's We The People, the Consent of the Governed... this idea that the government is subservient to us, not the other way around.

You want your citizenship to be free. You want the benefits of a democracy without the costs. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Feel entitled all you want though...

 

[heyheybooboo]

When my number came up ---- it was somewhere in the 340s. The next year the draft was gone. As far as I know, buried deep in a warehouse, is my file with 1H stamped on it.

If I'd been 18 a year earlier: 14

(for the uniformed that would have punched my ticket to SE Asia)




--

 

[cwjerome]

When my number came up ---- it was somewhere in the 340s. The next year the draft was gone. As far as I know, buried deep in a warehouse, is my file with 1H stamped on it.

If I'd been 18 a year earlier: 14

(for the uniformed that would have punched my ticket to SE Asia)
--

Reading your post I can't help but imagine a dystopia like so many novels or movies with life and death lotteries and such, etc...

 

[Arglebargle]

You want your citizenship to be free. You want the benefits of a democracy without the costs. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Feel entitled all you want though...

Sorry. Not so. There was no peacetime draft in US history til the 1950s. That's nearly 200 years of example for you. During the Civl War more people died in the New York Draft Riots than were killed in the first battle of Bull Run. It's not an American tradition.

 

[Fern]

Not to digress from the OP, but nothing there about an "Air Force".

I'm pretty sure the 'air force' started out as part of the army. To partially split them off for admin purposes doens't strike as a big deal. Just because they don't have the word 'army' in front of their name strikes me as a pretty silly distiction of no consequence.

Fern

 

[BoberFett]

The court has ruled that it does not constitute involuntary servitude.

Our courts have pretty much made every bad decision possible, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't accept their word as gospel.

 

[Fern]

Back forty years ago when the draft meant a whole lot more than putting your name in a database you "conservatives" were vehemently defending it. My how times have changed.
-snip-

As a conservative I've never much supported the draft. Too much gov power.

Either a war is considered worthwhile/necessary enough so that plenty of people volunteer like in WW2, or it isn't and we shouldn't bother.

Draft in these days is stupid. Military is now too specialized and doesn't need untrained, or poorly trained people.

Fern

 

[BoberFett]

Makes ya wonder why the constitution even exists since it can be avoided whenever it causes a problem. That's not just today. The people who made the thing allowed for ways to change it.

It's essentially a useless document, looked up to by crazies such as myself who are sticklers about things like "rule of law." Politicians have better things to do than worry about following laws.

 

[Arglebargle]

As a conservative I've never much supported the draft. Too much gov power.

Either a war is considered worthwhile/necessary enough so that plenty of people volunteer like in WW2, or it isn't and we shouldn't bother.

Draft in these days is stupid. Military is now too specialized and doesn't need untrained, or poorly trained people.

Fern

Uh, there was a major draft in WWII, just so you know.....