That's a non-issue. By law, it stops at one human being marrying another. That's the way it is in all 50 states and under Federal law so there is no question or issue of it being anything other than the Constitutional guarantee of equal protection under law.
That's a non-issue. By law, it stops at one human being marrying another. That's the way it is in all 50 states and under Federal law so there is no question or issue of it being anything other than the Constitutional guarantee of equal protection under law.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
an average person? wth does that mean? A person under 30 is likely to favor gay marriage 2-1. An old cranky person is likely to be against it 2-1. Of course one of those groups is the future and one will be dead shortly, so your "average person" is useless. And if you meant to say most people, the numbers are about even depending on the poll, but just like acceptance of interracial marriage took 50 years to become mainstream, those numbers are only going to climb.
another slippery slope argument?
There's a genetics issue with one man having children with more than one woman? That's not even illegal now...:roll:
You don't need to be married to adopt, so this is another issue entirely separate from gay marriage. If you want to tie them together then you have to ban marriage for couples who are infertile or who don't want children otherwise the law is overinclusive and underinclusive simultaneously.
Glad you don't see it as a relgious issue, but it isn't coincidence that of people who attend church once a week voted over 90% for Prop 8.
If you're ok with him having a civil union, why can't he just call it a marriage? Why won't all those evils you think will follow from gay marriage happen if you grant the exact same rights to gays in the form of civil unions? At least try to be consistent like the 13 states that banned even civil unions.
Because it takes an awful lot of effort to come up with arguments against gay marriage when there aren't any good ones.
Posner laments the loss of the conservative intelligencia, sort of.
http://www.becker-posner-blog....5/is_the_conserva.html
sportage
Lifer
- Feb 1, 2008
- 11,492
- 3,163
- 136
What I can?t agree with is putting civil rights issues up for a ballot vote?
Since when are civil rights issues open for mob rule?
In iOwa, the courts went by the law.
I thought that was how this country functioned?
Laws, courts, rulings.
If every civil rights issue were put to a vote on the ballot, then
there goes women?s rights to vote, and blacks might find themselves back
on the plantation. After LBJ signed civil rights bills, I don?t recall putting that to a ballot vote.
You all know what the outcome would have been? back then.
The average voter is not that educated on law and probably has not even read/understands
the US constitution word for word. The courts are the experts in this area. And that is why the courts
are nearly constantly siding with Gays on civil rights/marriage issues.
Remember, in Iowa it was unanimous ruling. Republicans and democrats on the high court.
A very powerful ruling from justices that know law and the constitution.
California voting on prop 8 should be voided by the courts.
That prop was a disgrace to the US constitution.
The CA courts have ruled following the law of the land.
Where does ?Joe six-pack? come into it???
All ?Joe? knows about Gay is what he seen on South Park or heard in the locker room
back in high school.
So we're going to let ?Joe? decide civil rights issues???
Stupidest thing I have ever heard of, or imagined.
Since when are civil rights issues open for mob rule?
In iOwa, the courts went by the law.
I thought that was how this country functioned?
Laws, courts, rulings.
If every civil rights issue were put to a vote on the ballot, then
there goes women?s rights to vote, and blacks might find themselves back
on the plantation. After LBJ signed civil rights bills, I don?t recall putting that to a ballot vote.
You all know what the outcome would have been? back then.
The average voter is not that educated on law and probably has not even read/understands
the US constitution word for word. The courts are the experts in this area. And that is why the courts
are nearly constantly siding with Gays on civil rights/marriage issues.
Remember, in Iowa it was unanimous ruling. Republicans and democrats on the high court.
A very powerful ruling from justices that know law and the constitution.
California voting on prop 8 should be voided by the courts.
That prop was a disgrace to the US constitution.
The CA courts have ruled following the law of the land.
Where does ?Joe six-pack? come into it???
All ?Joe? knows about Gay is what he seen on South Park or heard in the locker room
back in high school.
So we're going to let ?Joe? decide civil rights issues???
Stupidest thing I have ever heard of, or imagined.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,398
- 8,567
- 126
why do the republicans have to get their shit together? in fact, a lot of people argue that trying to get their shit together is what's gotten them in trouble (idealogically pure would be getting their shit together but might be electorally bad).
heck, the democrats are famous for never really having their shit together ("i'm not a member of an organized political party, i'm a democrat"). barry didn't run on having his shit together, he ran on not being bush and not being clinton.
n yusef
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2005
- 2,158
- 1
- 0
President Obama and the Democrats do have their shit together. They have plans to fix the economy and healthcare, end the wars and end our dependency on oil.
You may not agree with these plans, but they exist. Republicans have no counter-plans. I would call that not having your shit together.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
just curious... where do you see the GOP heading, who are its leaders and when will it recover?
They cant seem to answer any of these questions, so I am curious to see how you can.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
I don't think you are because of the following:Originally posted by: loki8481
someone just PM me and let me know if I'm racist or notI'm totally lost.
We are told that blacks can't be racists, because they suffer from discrimination.
Thus it is obvious that gays can't be racists either because they too suffer from discrimination.
If I understand this line of thinking (although it is a stretch to call it that) the only people who can be racists are straight white males since every other group in the country suffers some form of discrimination.
n yusef
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2005
- 2,158
- 1
- 0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I don't think you are because of the following:Originally posted by: loki8481
someone just PM me and let me know if I'm racist or not
We are told that blacks can't be racists, because they suffer from discrimination.
Thus it is obvious that gays can't be racists either because they too suffer from discrimination.
If I understand this line of thinking (although it is a stretch to call it that) the only people who can be racists are straight white males since every other group in the country suffers some form of discrimination.
Some people define racism (and sexism, heterosexism, ableism, etc.) as prejudice + power. From your skepticism and ignorance, I doubt you are one of these people. Power comes from being accepted in the mainstream, so yes, rich heterosexual white men have power over most everyone. But heterosexual men of color also have social power over women and homosexuals. Gay white men have social power over women and people of color. Able-bodied lesbians of color have social power over the physically disabled. And rich disabled people have power over poor able-bodied people.
Marginalization in one aspect of identity does not remove power in another aspect, it may only serve to conditionally mitigate it. I am queer and I'm black, but I'm a man so I have social power relative to women; I'm middle class so I have power relative to the poor; I'm cisgender (google it), so I have social power relative to trans people; I'm currently able-bodied so I have social power relative to the physically disabled. Do you follow?
Yes, gay white people can be racist, and people of color can be heterosexist.
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I don't think you are because of the following:Originally posted by: loki8481
someone just PM me and let me know if I'm racist or not
We are told that blacks can't be racists, because they suffer from discrimination.
Thus it is obvious that gays can't be racists either because they too suffer from discrimination.
If I understand this line of thinking (although it is a stretch to call it that) the only people who can be racists are straight white males since every other group in the country suffers some form of discrimination.
"We are told"? Link to one single poster in P&N saying that blacks cannot be racist.
If you can't, you shoud edit your post, because you made crap up *again* to win a point.
Yes, there have been some people somewhere who have made that wrong claim. That's a far cry from "we are told" as if it's the standard liberal line. You made another straw man.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I don't think you are because of the following:Originally posted by: loki8481
someone just PM me and let me know if I'm racist or not
We are told that blacks can't be racists, because they suffer from discrimination.
Thus it is obvious that gays can't be racists either because they too suffer from discrimination.
If I understand this line of thinking (although it is a stretch to call it that) the only people who can be racists are straight white males since every other group in the country suffers some form of discrimination.
"We are told"? Link to one single poster in P&N saying that blacks cannot be racist.
If you can't, you shoud edit your post, because you made crap up *again* to win a point.
Yes, there have been some people somewhere who have made that wrong claim. That's a far cry from "we are told" as if it's the standard liberal line. You made another straw man.
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
that is the first time I have ever heard that in my life. Who said that?
Another projo stretch. He is becoming like right wing radio. Make up a point out of thin air and then get offended by it's implications and then proceed to blame the left for the fictional outrage he is experiencing. Next step, Glenn Beck.
... and wiser, more experienced, pay taxes, have children, etc. I was quite liberal until I was about halfway through my Math and Econ degrees.
As far as gay marriage goes, it doesn't bother me one bit... but then again, the paranoid religious right makes me scratch my head just as hard as the bleeding hearts on the left.
I feel so alone.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
For those of you who never heard the 'blacks can't be racists' let me enlighten you on this idea.
1. Spike Lee ?Racism is when you have laws set up, systematically put in a way to keep people from advancing, to stop the advancement of a people. Black people have never had the power to enforce racism, and so this is something that white America is going to have to work out themselves. If they decide they want to stop it, curtail it, or to do the right thing... then it will be done, but not until then.?
aka blacks don't have the power to be racists.
2. Harry Allen of the rap group Public Enemy when accused of racism against whites and Jews. "It's impossible," he said. "Only white people can be racist, and I am not white."
3. It is based on the following: "blacks can be prejudiced or bigoted, but not ''racist'' because racism involves systemic oppression -- the wielding of power. As blacks neither wield power nor control the system, the reasoning goes, it's beyond their ability to be racist."
Google "blacks can't be racist" and start reading. There is a ton of stuff out there on this subject.
1. Spike Lee ?Racism is when you have laws set up, systematically put in a way to keep people from advancing, to stop the advancement of a people. Black people have never had the power to enforce racism, and so this is something that white America is going to have to work out themselves. If they decide they want to stop it, curtail it, or to do the right thing... then it will be done, but not until then.?
aka blacks don't have the power to be racists.
2. Harry Allen of the rap group Public Enemy when accused of racism against whites and Jews. "It's impossible," he said. "Only white people can be racist, and I am not white."
3. It is based on the following: "blacks can be prejudiced or bigoted, but not ''racist'' because racism involves systemic oppression -- the wielding of power. As blacks neither wield power nor control the system, the reasoning goes, it's beyond their ability to be racist."
Google "blacks can't be racist" and start reading. There is a ton of stuff out there on this subject.
This is actually a common myth. Studies have shown that people do not become more conservative as they age, in fact they become more liberal. Society (at least recently) has been liberalizing at a considerably faster rate than any one age group as they increase in years however. So, while a person becomes more liberal in comparison to their younger self, they become more conservative compared to society. Luckily, everyone is still moving in a more liberal direction.
I'd be interested in reading a formal, unbiased study on this, since it's something I've actually pondered from time to time. As I said, my own personal experiences - as limited and confined as they may be - differ from this, so it would be interesting to see the whole picture.
There are some matters where I eagerly await a leftward shift. Gay marriage, gun control, etc. Other matters, such as the bottomless pits that are many of our social programs, not so much.
I don't feel comfortable in saying "We'd be lucky to see the whole country move left/right." It's too narrow minded and confining.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
OK, so it exists as an idea, that some narrow people beleive...
what exactly is your point by all this? I re-iterate my comment. "Another projo stretch. He is becoming like right wing radio. Make up a point out of thin air and then get offended by it's implications and then proceed to blame the left for the fictional outrage he is experiencing. Next step, Glenn Beck. Barack Obama will enslave us all!!!
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