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is the muslim problem that big in Europe?

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SunnyD said:
Crusades.
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not religion. The pope wanted more land just like any other tyrant of the day. the beauty of that seat is that you could justify everything behind god. the sheep were willing meat shields.

The papal seat was the most powerful position in the world at the time. That kind of power didn't exactly attract the pious. Hell, just look at the Borgia popes.

Holy hell!
 
SunnyD said:
Land grab due to what? Oh yeah, that's right - the Christian holy lands... must bring it into the fold. I never said that it wasn't a land grab. Religion was used as a pretext for it. Remove the religion, there is no pretext for it.
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again they didn't want the land b/c of it's holy status. It's b/c of it's influence, b/c of trade routes, ...money.

it happens to be extremely convenient that you can throw Holy land on top of that, as when you are the sole arbiter of the afterlife of your followers, you can pretty much command them to do whatever you want.


The popes were some of the greediest, power-hungry people to walk the planet. For centuries, not a single one of them ascended that throne due to piety. Several of them murdered their rivals as cardinals (some even as popes). Plenty of them had shitloads of kids floating around, from several mistresses, lol.
 
You guys need to read more on the crusades... You think rulers in Italy/France/etc were really trying to grab a bunch of sand for the resources involved?
 
zinfamous said:
again they didn't want the land b/c of it's holy status. It's b/c of it's influence, b/c of trade routes, ...money.

it happens to be extremely convenient that you can throw Holy land on top of that, as when you are the sole arbiter of the afterlife of your followers, you can pretty much command them to do whatever you want.


The popes were some of the greediest, power-hungry people to walk the planet. For centuries, not a single one of them ascended that throne due to piety. Several of them murdered their rivals as cardinals (some even as popes). Plenty of them had shitloads of kids floating around, from several mistresses, lol.
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And what were the popes? RELIGIOUS leaders. It doesn't matter what the actual motive was, it was invoked under a religious pretext. Like I said, without religion this wouldn't even be a discussion. Granted, humanity would find something else to bicker about, but that's not the point.
 
SD what he is saying is that the religion was not the reason. Remember South Park when all religion was outlawed and they worshipped Science?

Religion may be USED as a reason, but it has never really BEEN a reason... I think you guys are arguing over something you agree on.....



Are you married?
 
SunnyD said:
And what were the popes? RELIGIOUS leaders. It doesn't matter what the actual motive was, it was invoked under a religious pretext. Like I said, without religion this wouldn't even be a discussion. Granted, humanity would find something else to bicker about, but that's not the point.
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that kinda is the point. so we might as well put up with good ole religion :awe:
 
The Crusades eh? That was when?

Well there was WWI. Forget that. WWII. No.

Er, the Civil war. Nope.'

I'll get back to you.
 
No the same.

We try to compare too mant different things as if they were closely related. The only thing that is similar between them is that they both involve humans... 😛
 
Ninjahedge said:
SD what he is saying is that the religion was not the reason. Remember South Park when all religion was outlawed and they worshipped Science?

Religion may be USED as a reason, but it has never really BEEN a reason... I think you guys are arguing over something you agree on.....



Are you married?
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Religion: We must kill this country because god demands it, and we don't want god angry.

Impossible to refute.

Science: We have these photo's showing that this land is ripe for the picking and has resources we need.

Debatable.
 
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