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Is the moon the next fuel source ?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

Well, the moon is closer to the sun but just not by a lot. Don't ask me more than that. This is just what I read. At the time that I read it, NASA supported the project and that article. I am sure I could dig it up on Google but I am lazy.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,757
46,542
136
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
fusion bombs on the horizon. cant wait.
Um...we already have fusion bombs.

Yup, in advanced nuclear weapons the fission primary acts basically as an igniter for the fusion stages.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,757
46,542
136
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

Well, the moon is closer to the sun but just not by a lot. Don't ask me more than that. This is just what I read. At the time that I read it, NASA supported the project and that article. I am sure I could dig it up on Google but I am lazy.

The Moon has little atmosphere and a much weaker magnetic field, this allows it to collect H3 on its surface.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Something tells me that the energy cost of mining this stuff on THE FREAKING MOON will be a wee bit more than the energy output we'll get back :)

Really? More than what it costs to power the United States for one year?

Assuming that somebody can build a working fusion reactor that can actually use this stuff.
 

NanoStuff

Banned
Mar 23, 2006
2,981
1
0
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
fusion bombs on the horizon. cant wait.
Um...we already have fusion bombs.

Yup, in advanced nuclear weapons the fission primary acts basically as an igniter for the fusion stages.

I was referring specifically to H3 fusion bombs. but yes.....you are right.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,256
406
126
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.
Isn't the troposphere the lowest part of Earth's atmosphere, like < 15km up?
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Something tells me that the energy cost of mining this stuff on THE FREAKING MOON will be a wee bit more than the energy output we'll get back :)

Really? More than what it costs to power the United States for one year?

Assuming that somebody can build a working fusion reactor that can actually use this stuff.

That, I have no doubt will happen so long as the human race doesn't blow itself up first. Whether it's in 5 years or 35 years, I'm sure it will happen.

EDIT: The cold or hot fusion reactor, not global thermonuclear war... :p
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I'm wondering how much the oil crisis is going to cause more research to be put into the concept of mining on the moon.
Seems they came up with the idea in the early 90's and it just sort of lingered without much being done. Then over the past couple years its accelerated rapidly. And now its getting announcements every month or two.

Newsweek has an article about it and also talks about chinas satellite destroying missle.
Guess it could be used for taking out competitors as well :)

Seems the majority of the research is via private funding.
Wonder if any names like texaco, mobile, exxon, bp, shell are on that list.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: clamum
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
fusion bombs on the horizon. cant wait.
Um...we already have fusion bombs.
Haha yeah I was gonna say that. I think they were first tested in the 1950s.
Yup. They used fission bombs as the trigger to get the fusion reaction going. IcebergSlim - Google for "hydrogen bombs." Fusion bombs are the most powerful weapons we've ever created.
I'm sure we'll break that record whenever the price of antimatter production goes way down. In fusion, there is a slight reduction in mass - greatly simplified, two hydrogen nuclei would have a combined mass of 2, but the helium nuclei created from them would have a mass of only 1.995. These figures aren't at all accurate, but they illustrate the point - mass is in fact lost during the reaction, and it is converted to energy, according to e=mc².

With antimatter explosives, the entire mass available is converted into energy, gamma. A mass of 2 grams of hydrogen, and 2 grams of antihydrogen, and you've got the entire 4 grams converted into energy. 180,000,000 joules of energy right there.


Originally posted by: Xavier434
Well, the moon is closer to the sun but just not by a lot. Don't ask me more than that. This is just what I read. At the time that I read it, NASA supported the project and that article. I am sure I could dig it up on Google but I am lazy.
Really not a lot closer. Average distance to the Sun, from Earth: 93 million miles. Average distance between the Moon and Earth: about 239,000 miles. It's about a quarter of 1% of the Sun -> Earth distance.
 

MattCo

Platinum Member
Jan 29, 2001
2,198
2
81
Originally posted by: clamum
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.
Isn't the troposphere the lowest part of Earth's atmosphere, like < 15km up?

Well, duh... that is why the moon glows so much more brightly... friction.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: NuclearNed
I don't have a source to back it up, but I think I've read that there is an international treaty where most nations have agreed that the moon will never belong to any particular nation.

WW3 will be over the moon!
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Originally posted by: sdifox
Feasibility aside, the only possible use would be a forward base for space exploration. Dropping it back to earth is just nuts. A giant solar panel farm in orbit is probably cheaper and more feasible than this moon doohickey.

Not really. Assuming they can manufacture Heat-shields at the moon base, All you need to do is make a re-entry capsule, fill it with whatever, and aim it at the appropriate trajectory with just enough thrust to get past the moon's gravity (which isn't much depending on the weight)
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,256
406
126
Originally posted by: MattCo
Originally posted by: clamum
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.
Isn't the troposphere the lowest part of Earth's atmosphere, like < 15km up?

Well, duh... that is why the moon glows so much more brightly... friction.
I took his statement as meaning the moon travels along the upper troposphere, meaning it travels less than 15 km up from Earth.

I guess I don't understand how the moon is closer to the Sun than the Earth. At times I would think it is since it revolves around the Earth, but all the time? Guess I'm just missing something.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.

:laugh:MAO
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: clamum
I took his statement as meaning the moon travels along the upper troposphere, meaning it travels less than 15 km up from Earth.

I guess I don't understand how the moon is closer to the Sun than the Earth. At times I would think it is since it revolves around the Earth, but all the time? Guess I'm just missing something.
I think his statement about the Moon glowing due to atmospheric friction was intended to be sarcastic.:)
I really really hope it was, or else our science education is worse than I though.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Well, the moon is closer to the sun but just not by a lot. Don't ask me more than that. This is just what I read. At the time that I read it, NASA supported the project and that article. I am sure I could dig it up on Google but I am lazy.
Really not a lot closer. Average distance to the Sun, from Earth: 93 million miles. Average distance between the Moon and Earth: about 239,000 miles. It's about a quarter of 1% of the Sun -> Earth distance.

Yes, that is right. I have no idea how the 10,000 number was produced. I am not a scientist in this kind of field. It's just what I read years ago which included a snippet about the difference in distances. It's very possible that a quick mention about the differences in atmosphere playing a major role was in the article too and I simply forgot that part. The article was written so your average Joe could grasp the concept which means it was severely lacking in detail and justification outside of NASA supporting it.

In any case, I hope that either of these ideas become true someday. They both sound revolutionary.

 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: pontifex
Originally posted by: NuclearNed
I don't have a source to back it up, but I think I've read that there is an international treaty where most nations have agreed that the moon will never belong to any particular nation.

WW3 will be over the moon!

Its highly possible.
I notice china using words like "whoever conquers the moon will benefit first"

Russia claiming "moon colonization would enable the US to establish its control of the globalenergy market 20 years from now and put the rest of the world on its knees as hydrocarbons runout "

White house "these guys have been working for years to set this up, and now they are moving quickly because they fear that other countries will get to these resources first "
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.

:laugh:MAO

Yeah, that made me laugh at an inappropriately loud level in my office just now.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
Originally posted by: clamum
Originally posted by: MattCo
Originally posted by: clamum
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am a fan of the project currently being considered which involves placing solar panels on the moon. the energy collected is supposed to be sent back to earth via microwaves and then processed into usable energy. The rate of energy collected by these solar panels is theorized to be about 10,000 times more than if the same panels were collecting energy from earth. This is due to the moon being closer to the sun. I read about this project a few years ago. They said it would take something like 50 years to fully bring it into reality though so who knows.

Maybe they can bring this idea with Helium 3 into reality sooner?

WTF? :confused: How can the moon be closer to the sun? It revolves around the Earth.

I think the moon would be able to collect more solar energy because it has no atmosphere but not because it is closer.

No, he's right, you're just confused. You see, the moon travels along the upper troposphere, where there's enough air remaining to give the moon that distinctive glow as it creates lots of friction moving through the air. The sun however is way up in the stratosphere, which is why it appears so small. The moon being twice as close to the sun compared to earth, it can absorb lots of sunshine. Heat created by air resistance can also be harnessed to heat up cold water that we would send to the moon, and then returned warm for bathing and so on.
Isn't the troposphere the lowest part of Earth's atmosphere, like < 15km up?

Well, duh... that is why the moon glows so much more brightly... friction.
I took his statement as meaning the moon travels along the upper troposphere, meaning it travels less than 15 km up from Earth.

I guess I don't understand how the moon is closer to the Sun than the Earth. At times I would think it is since it revolves around the Earth, but all the time? Guess I'm just missing something.

Dude, the Moon is about 239,000 miles away from the surface of the Earth.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
This is not the article I read previously and there is nothing that I saw which mentions NASA's support here, but it talks about the idea. It also says that it would be about 100 times more effective. Not 10,000. *shrug*

Anyways, here it is:

Source

Solar Power from Moon


Introduction

Solar power is clean, abundant, and becoming cheaper and more efficient all the time. Unfortunately, however, the sun isn't always there when you need it?like when it's cloudy, or it's raining, or it's nighttime. In this Science Update, you'll hear about an ambitious plan to get around that problem.


Audio File

Solar Power from Moon


Transcript

Solar power from the moon. I'm Bob Hirshon and this is Science Update.

As the world's population continues to grow, the need for low-cost, sustainable sources of energy grows along with it.

One scientist says the answer to this dilemma might be found in space. David Criswell is Director of the Institute for Space Systems Operations at the University of Houston. He says building solar power stations on the moon could be a way to fulfill the energy needs of the whole world.

Criswell:
And as I look over all of the many options for doing this, I do not see any conventional options that can do it. That's the basic reason for considering the moon. It intercepts about a hundred times more solar energy than you need for a prosperous earth.

Criswell says the collected solar energy could be converted into low-intensity microwaves that get beamed back to earth. Then, receivers placed all over the world could convert the microwaves to usable electricity.

Criswell:
And the system actually uses on earth a very small amount of area compared to conventionally ways of generating that same amount of power.

Criswell says the basic technology to do this has been around since the 1970's. So, if people were to accept the idea, the system would be straightforward to build. For the American Association for the Advancement of Science, I'm Bob Hirshon.




Making Sense of the Research

This idea may sound pretty far-fetched, and there's no question that it would take some serious money and resources to implement it. But Criswell argues that in the long run, it will be cheaper than the power we use now. And it will definitely take some creative thinking to meet the world's energy demand of 20 terawatts (the amount of energy used by 200 billion bright light bulbs) by 2050. Neither our current supply of fossil fuels nor any current earth-based renewable energy technology is up to the task.

Why collect solar power on the moon? The answer is that all the factors that make life impossible on the moon (no atmosphere, wind, rain, fog, clouds, or weather of any kind) make it an ideal place to collect solar energy. The moon is exposed to sunlight constantly, except briefly during a rare lunar eclipse. If that energy could be harnessed, as Criswell describes, and sent back to earth in microwave form, it could supply energy far more efficiently than solar panels in even the driest earth desert.

Of course, this idea involves building solar panels on the moon, which means we would have people on the moon all the time (about six months to a year per person, Criswell suggests), to build and maintain the repair equipment and arrays. It also means shipping manufacturing equipment up to the moon. Criswell argues that most of the necessary materials can actually be extracted from the lunar landscape, with help from some start-up equipment and supplementary supplies. However, it would still involve an initial outlay of resources by the government and a decision on the role, if any, that NASA would play in the project.

There are other obstacles to overcome. For example, the project would involve building about 10,000 large receivers all over the world. Many comparable global energy proposals would actually require more equipment, but it's still a lot of work. Plus, many poorer countries and communities would have to build rectennas and power grids in order to benefit from this technology. This can be seen either as an obstacle or as an opportunity for workers in these countries to upgrade their skills.

On a more minor note, many communications systems, from cell phones to emergency response systems, broadcast on frequencies that would overlap with this system's microwave energy, and would have to be re-allocated to new channels. (Criswell says the microwaves won't cook humans or animals?they're well below hazardous levels.)

Despite these hurdles, the project offers the hope of powering the world cleanly through the twenty-first century. And although the World Energy Council has challenged all decision-makers to provide affordable and clean power to the world, few leaders or organizations have risen to the occasion. The Lunar Solar Power project would not be a simple undertaking, but even many skeptics admit that the technological knowledge is available to pull it off. Even if this project never gets off the drawing board, a real solution to the world's escalating energy needs will need to be just as ambitious.

Now try and answer these questions:

1. Why put solar panels on the moon?
2. Describe briefly how Criswell's system works.
3. Why can't the world's energy needs be met by existing technologies? What are some of the problems with the way we use energy now?
4. What are some obstacles to implementing ambitious, revolutionary energy technologies? Consider scientific, social, cultural, political, and financial barriers.
5. How can the global community respond better to serious energy and environmental problems? What opportunities do you see for change?


 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Dude, the Moon is about 239,000 miles away from the surface of the Earth.
Well sure, but when you convert that to metric, it's only like, 20 liters or something.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Hey, I just had a mediocre idea! Would there be any possible way to harness the radiation traveling along the van allen belt?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: manowar821
Hey, I just had a mediocre idea! Would there be any possible way to harness the radiation traveling along the van allen belt?

nah.
You have to have something you can own.
All this research takes money and investors and countries want a big return.
The moon gives them that. They can own it like they do with oil.

Its just a question of who will own what.