Is the income tax a fraud?

[Dissipate]

Before you dismiss this as nutjob material watch this presentation which has interviews with lawyers and CPAs:

Presentation

Apparently in the income tax code there is a part that says that in order to determine one's taxable income they must look at section 861, but when you look there the section only discusses foreign trade as being taxable. I thought this couldn't be true, but I looked for myself and saw it in black and white. Perhaps something is amiss here, watch the presentation and decide for yourself. Here is more info on the matter:

here. Click on the Debate tab while you are at the web site. It has common arguments against the 861 position and it provides refutations (I'm not sure if the refutations are correct, just skimmed a few). Bizarre/interesting stuff, and hard to ignore since tax professionals appear to be weighing in on the matter and the IRS has apparently refused to answer questions relating to section 861.

 

[Venix]

The IRS answered questions about Section 861 years ago. The courts have consistently ruled that the 861 argument is frivolous; see Takaba v. Commissioner or Madge v. Commissioner.

 

[BugsBunny1078]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Venix
The IRS answered questions about Section 861 years ago. The courts have consistently ruled that the 861 argument is frivolous; see Takaba v. Commissioner or Madge v. Commissioner.

Links?

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Venix
The IRS answered questions about Section 861 years ago. The courts have consistently ruled that the 861 argument is frivolous; see Takaba v. Commissioner or Madge v. Commissioner.

Links?

Do you google? Do you know how to use the IRS website to review their log of case files? The tax enforcement portion of the IRS website is very rich with information and if I remember correctly even includes PDF documents of the court judgements they have won and continue to win.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Venix
The IRS answered questions about Section 861 years ago. The courts have consistently ruled that the 861 argument is frivolous; see Takaba v. Commissioner or Madge v. Commissioner.

Links?

Do you google? Do you know how to use the IRS website to review their log of case files? The tax enforcement portion of the IRS website is very rich with information and if I remember correctly even includes PDF documents of the court judgements they have won and continue to win.

Yes but when someone tells you to see something on the intarweb it is usually nice for them to provide links. In fact it is quite customary.

 

[SuperTool]

Can we have a dedicated thread where rightwingers can tell us why they don't want to pay taxes?
Otherwise it's one thing after another

 

[alchemize]

I think Dissipate is a libertarian...

 

[SuperTool]

So? We are talking about economic issues, not legalizing pot.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Can we have a dedicated thread where rightwingers can tell us why they don't want to pay taxes?
Otherwise it's one thing after another

You have something to contribute to the thread? Fine. If you don't, get the hell out. Your labeling me of a right winger just makes you look like an idiot, as I have explained before a right winger is a hardcore christian conservative which I am not. If you are going to bandy about labels at least try to use them in the proper manner. I must say though, your screen name fits you well, you certainly are a tool.

Edit: you want to harass someone about repetition of topics? Go harass DMCowen with his 5 billion WalMart threads.

 

[girlgeek]

Maybe the whole tax code will be scrapped for something better. Go here

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: girlgeek
Maybe the whole tax code will be scrapped for something better. Go here

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.

The Fair Tax is gaining support in the house. I think it may eventually pass, but in the mean time its IRS city. I used to support the Fair Tax until I woke up and realized it surpresses right to free trade just as much as the income tax. If the enormous compliance costs go down with the Fair Tax everyone will be better off, however. Right now I'm in support of a modified head tax (basically a head tax for the masses, if there is such a thing).

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Venix
The IRS answered questions about Section 861 years ago. The courts have consistently ruled that the 861 argument is frivolous; see Takaba v. Commissioner or Madge v. Commissioner.

Links?

Do you google? Do you know how to use the IRS website to review their log of case files? The tax enforcement portion of the IRS website is very rich with information and if I remember correctly even includes PDF documents of the court judgements they have won and continue to win.

The court cases that the IRS has won means nothing. Our court system is very screwy. Basically, anything the IRS says is true until you prove it false. So if they say that you owe $10,000, then you owe $10,000 unless you can prove otherwise. 98% of this country doesn't know the first thing about the law, and thus are stuck paying it. If you do not fully understand what you are doing, you will lose. If you don't pay and just tell the judge about that, he will not listen because you don't understand what you are talking about.
Do you think the IRS would have a page dedicated to the cases they've lost? Of course not. I'm not making any claims that we don't have to pay taxes, but you shouldn't believe everything you hear. I know someone now who is fighting the IRS for years and they have not arrested him, nor have they done anything to him. He knows the law and they haven't been able to touch him. Granted, this guy spends all day, everyday studying this stuff, but it has lead me to believe that there is more going on in this world that our government is telling us. He has done some freaky stuff that I wouldn't believe if I didn't actually personally know this guy. If I didn't know better, I would swear that he would be in jail right now for the stuff he is doing. But he isn't. And this isn't the stuff that the gov't would sit on either. If the stuff he were doing truly is illegal, then he should have been in jail years ago.
I won't tell you what he is doing because you people won't believe it. I wouldn't. And once again, I make no claims that what he is doing is actually legal, but the guy is a free man.


Back to what you said, I have heard that too, but I don't think it's true. At least not the evidence you are presenting. I do believe that our tax system is voluntary though. I have seen lots of evidence to support that along with information on how to "un-volunteer". However, I am not going to risk trying it because I am still not 100% convinced.

 

[Christoph]

From the Tax Protester FAQ:

So why does section 861 exist?

Even a casual reading of section 861 and its regulations makes it clear that the statute and regulations were enacted to deal with the problems of calculating the taxable incomes of nonresident aliens, or taxpayers with incomes from sources outside of the United States for which special provisions apply. Section 861 is part of Subchapter N of the Internal Revenue Code, which is titled "Tax Based on Income From Sources Within or Without the United States." More specifically, section 861 is in part I of Subchapter N, and Part I is titled "Source Rules and Other General Rules Relating to Foreign Income." The other parts of Subchapter N are titled "Nonresident Aliens and Foreign Corporations," "Income from Sources Without the United States," "Domestic International Sales Corporations," and "International Boycott Determinations." (Are you beginning to see a pattern?)

Nonresident aliens (i.e., individuals who are neither citizens nor residents of the United States) and foreign corporations are taxed by the United States only on income earned in the United States. See, for example, I.R.C. section 871. And what is income earned in the United States? That is what the rules of section 861 are supposed to determine.

Because nonresident aliens and foreign corporations are taxed only on income from sources within the United States, it is necessary to identify the sources of income (and deductions) for them, which is why there are regulations for them.

The faq cites a number of court cases, this is my favorite:

On September 26, 2000, George and Dorothy Henderson, of Roseville, California, were convicted in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California of conspiring to defraud the IRS, aiding in the presentation of false tax returns, and other charges arising out of their sale of bogus trust schemes to generate false deductions for clients, as well as helping clients to hide income by routing monies through a variety of domestic and foreign accounts. According to an article in the New York Times, Mr. and Mrs. Henderson decided to argue at their sentencing that "they were exempt from tax under Section 861 of the Internal Revenue Code, contending that the statute excludes most Americans from income taxes." Mrs. Henderson's lawyer, Donald Dorfman, tried to discourage his client, but said that "She insisted on speaking and telling the judge about the 861 position and how as a sovereign citizen of California the federal courts had no jurisdiction and all sorts of gibberish." After listening to their arguments, Judge Garland E. Burell Jr. added five months to Mrs. Henderson's prison sentence and added eight months to Mr. Henderson's prison sentence. See, "California Couple Sentenced for Helping Clients Evade Taxes," by David Cay Johnston, New York Times (2/23/2001).

 

[NightCrawler]

National Sales Tax

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
The court cases that the IRS has won means nothing. Our court system is very screwy. Basically, anything the IRS says is true until you prove it false. So if they say that you owe $10,000, then you owe $10,000 unless you can prove otherwise. 98% of this country doesn't know the first thing about the law, and thus are stuck paying it. If you do not fully understand what you are doing, you will lose. If you don't pay and just tell the judge about that, he will not listen because you don't understand what you are talking about.
Do you think the IRS would have a page dedicated to the cases they've lost? Of course not. I'm not making any claims that we don't have to pay taxes, but you shouldn't believe everything you hear. I know someone now who is fighting the IRS for years and they have not arrested him, nor have they done anything to him. He knows the law and they haven't been able to touch him. Granted, this guy spends all day, everyday studying this stuff, but it has lead me to believe that there is more going on in this world that our government is telling us. He has done some freaky stuff that I wouldn't believe if I didn't actually personally know this guy. If I didn't know better, I would swear that he would be in jail right now for the stuff he is doing. But he isn't. And this isn't the stuff that the gov't would sit on either. If the stuff he were doing truly is illegal, then he should have been in jail years ago.
I won't tell you what he is doing because you people won't believe it. I wouldn't. And once again, I make no claims that what he is doing is actually legal, but the guy is a free man.


Back to what you said, I have heard that too, but I don't think it's true. At least not the evidence you are presenting. I do believe that our tax system is voluntary though. I have seen lots of evidence to support that along with information on how to "un-volunteer". However, I am not going to risk trying it because I am still not 100% convinced.

If you had read what I said ,I believe the IRS tax evasion site contains links to PDF's of the court judgements. Any competent person can read those judgements because that IS what matters. A decided case becomes common law and is used in future judgements. Wether or not the IRS posts cases they lose the common tax evasion scheme's that people talk about such as "voluntary" tax systems are fully documented case histories on their website. If you bring such a frivolus excuse for non-payment before the court you will likely face severe penalties and likely jail time. Currently for 2004 the IRS has gotten 79 convictions on 120 recomendations for prosecution, of those 93.7% got jail time with an average of 33 months.Statistics

As far as your friend goes it is not atypical for an IRS tax evasion case to take 3 years to begin and over 2 years to prosecute. They rarely lose the cases they bring. Frivolous Tax Evasion

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: XZeroII
The court cases that the IRS has won means nothing. Our court system is very screwy. Basically, anything the IRS says is true until you prove it false. So if they say that you owe $10,000, then you owe $10,000 unless you can prove otherwise. 98% of this country doesn't know the first thing about the law, and thus are stuck paying it. If you do not fully understand what you are doing, you will lose. If you don't pay and just tell the judge about that, he will not listen because you don't understand what you are talking about.
Do you think the IRS would have a page dedicated to the cases they've lost? Of course not. I'm not making any claims that we don't have to pay taxes, but you shouldn't believe everything you hear. I know someone now who is fighting the IRS for years and they have not arrested him, nor have they done anything to him. He knows the law and they haven't been able to touch him. Granted, this guy spends all day, everyday studying this stuff, but it has lead me to believe that there is more going on in this world that our government is telling us. He has done some freaky stuff that I wouldn't believe if I didn't actually personally know this guy. If I didn't know better, I would swear that he would be in jail right now for the stuff he is doing. But he isn't. And this isn't the stuff that the gov't would sit on either. If the stuff he were doing truly is illegal, then he should have been in jail years ago.
I won't tell you what he is doing because you people won't believe it. I wouldn't. And once again, I make no claims that what he is doing is actually legal, but the guy is a free man.


Back to what you said, I have heard that too, but I don't think it's true. At least not the evidence you are presenting. I do believe that our tax system is voluntary though. I have seen lots of evidence to support that along with information on how to "un-volunteer". However, I am not going to risk trying it because I am still not 100% convinced.

If you had read what I said ,I believe the IRS tax evasion site contains links to PDF's of the court judgements. Any competent person can read those judgements because that IS what matters. A decided case becomes common law and is used in future judgements. Wether or not the IRS posts cases they lose the common tax evasion scheme's that people talk about such as "voluntary" tax systems are fully documented case histories on their website. If you bring such a frivolus excuse for non-payment before the court you will likely face severe penalties and likely jail time. Currently for 2004 the IRS has gotten 79 convictions on 120 recomendations for prosecution, of those 93.7% got jail time with an average of 33 months.Statistics

As far as your friend goes it is not atypical for an IRS tax evasion case to take 3 years to begin and over 2 years to prosecute. They rarely lose the cases they bring. Frivolous Tax Evasion

First, If you had read what I said, you would know how our court system works and that the IRS doesn't have to be right in order to win a case. This is how our court system works. If you can't prove that the IRS is wrong, then you lose. This one little fact(861) is not nearly enough to convince a judge that you are right, so if you tried it, you would certainly lose and yes, you would face serious jail time and other penalties. The IRS picks and chooses their cases. I'm sure that they make sure that they can win before they take someone to court.

As for my friend, he has been at this for much longer than 3 years. At least 7 or 8 years, and that is just what I know of. As for your link to the frivilous stuff, that PDF doesn't address the real issues. Everything they say in there is probably true. 100%, I'm sure. However, it is simply meant to scare people because they don't address the REAL issues that come up.
As with any legal document, you cannot rely on your normal vocabulary. Our government redefines common words all the time. Unless you know which words have been redefined (by looking them up), everything in there would point to you having to pay taxes. According to my friend, there are at least 8 different definitions of the United States in the IRS tax code. 8 different. You cannot assume that when they say United States that they are talking about where you are living right now. Any good lawyer can verify this redefintion information (not nececcesarily my example, but that the gov't redefines words). So what they say there is probably all true, but that doesn't mean that it applies to you specifically. I can't go into more detail because I am not an expert at this. I only know bits and parts and don't even know if I believe it or not.
So, as I said in my original post, I don't know if this is all true, but I do know that we don't have the full picture. My friend not only does the tax thing, but other stuff that he should have been in jail for years ago if it were actually illegal. I mean, serious stuff. But since he is a free man, I have to wonder if there is some truth to some of it.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: girlgeek
Maybe the whole tax code will be scrapped for something better. Go here

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.

The Fair Tax is gaining support in the house. I think it may eventually pass, but in the mean time its IRS city. I used to support the Fair Tax until I woke up and realized it surpresses right to free trade just as much as the income tax. If the enormous compliance costs go down with the Fair Tax everyone will be better off, however. Right now I'm in support of a modified head tax (basically a head tax for the masses, if there is such a thing).

I get lots of head, does that mean my taxes wil go up? Damn my sexy ass!

 

[laFiera]

i can't still decide if joe banister is a crook or a saint..damn!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: XZeroII
The court cases that the IRS has won means nothing. Our court system is very screwy. Basically, anything the IRS says is true until you prove it false. So if they say that you owe $10,000, then you owe $10,000 unless you can prove otherwise. 98% of this country doesn't know the first thing about the law, and thus are stuck paying it. If you do not fully understand what you are doing, you will lose. If you don't pay and just tell the judge about that, he will not listen because you don't understand what you are talking about.
Do you think the IRS would have a page dedicated to the cases they've lost? Of course not. I'm not making any claims that we don't have to pay taxes, but you shouldn't believe everything you hear. I know someone now who is fighting the IRS for years and they have not arrested him, nor have they done anything to him. He knows the law and they haven't been able to touch him. Granted, this guy spends all day, everyday studying this stuff, but it has lead me to believe that there is more going on in this world that our government is telling us. He has done some freaky stuff that I wouldn't believe if I didn't actually personally know this guy. If I didn't know better, I would swear that he would be in jail right now for the stuff he is doing. But he isn't. And this isn't the stuff that the gov't would sit on either. If the stuff he were doing truly is illegal, then he should have been in jail years ago.
I won't tell you what he is doing because you people won't believe it. I wouldn't. And once again, I make no claims that what he is doing is actually legal, but the guy is a free man.


Back to what you said, I have heard that too, but I don't think it's true. At least not the evidence you are presenting. I do believe that our tax system is voluntary though. I have seen lots of evidence to support that along with information on how to "un-volunteer". However, I am not going to risk trying it because I am still not 100% convinced.

If you had read what I said ,I believe the IRS tax evasion site contains links to PDF's of the court judgements. Any competent person can read those judgements because that IS what matters. A decided case becomes common law and is used in future judgements. Wether or not the IRS posts cases they lose the common tax evasion scheme's that people talk about such as "voluntary" tax systems are fully documented case histories on their website. If you bring such a frivolus excuse for non-payment before the court you will likely face severe penalties and likely jail time. Currently for 2004 the IRS has gotten 79 convictions on 120 recomendations for prosecution, of those 93.7% got jail time with an average of 33 months.Statistics

As far as your friend goes it is not atypical for an IRS tax evasion case to take 3 years to begin and over 2 years to prosecute. They rarely lose the cases they bring. Frivolous Tax Evasion

The 861 proponents realize that the 861 argument has been deemed frivolous, but as far as I know the courts haven't explained exactly why it is. Watch the presentation, there is an attorney who says that usually when the court says something is frivolous they explain why but they have declined for the 861 argument. The people inquiring about this are not all nutjobs and whackos, they are professionals (CPAs and attorneys), even former IRS employees and agents (Joe Banister and Mrs. Jackson Peel).

 

[beyoku]

i found out about that a last year, around the time thy banned that guys book - Federal Mafia. I called the IRS and they passed me around to like 10 or 12 people. Nobody would even touch my call. I havea few coworkers that that had also tried to order the book but it was banned and they called as well - same thing.....one guy even got passed around for an hour. What does this mean.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: beyoku
i found out about that a last year, around the time thy banned that guys book - Federal Mafia. I called the IRS and they passed me around to like 10 or 12 people. Nobody would even touch my call. I havea few coworkers that that had also tried to order the book but it was banned and they called as well - same thing.....one guy even got passed around for an hour. What does this mean.

What guy's book?