Is the High School Diploma Meaningless?

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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: zephyrprime
The way everyone talks, it seems to be that the school systems is worse now than it used to be. Is this really so? Is there any proof of this?
Do we have any proof families and communities are in worse shape? That is the root question you want to ask, since there is a causal(sp) relationship there. Unfortunately, except at the community college level and above, the schools must lower expectations to keep people happy, if need be.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
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I am an employment councilor for the State of Utah, and I can assure you, skipping HS for an alternative choice had better come with a very valid and verifiable reason, or you best stick it out and graduate if you have any hope to advance in the workforce. I see idiots with Masters degrees, and Bacholer degrees are are at bare minimum looked at as proof you can tough out collage. Nothing more. Employerrs want smart, teachable, agressive, profitable workers, and a high school diploma will fill that many times more than a drop out who gets a GED. Very few get an AA and jump into the workforce at anything above what would be offered a HS grad. That is fact.

If you think you can outsmart the people you are seeking employment from, go for it, and we will see you in the foodstamp line in short order. If you do not stay in school, go the full course, and set your sights on being a benifit to society by getting the education that will guarentee the lifestyle you wish to maintain, then you will be just another person in the sea of people I see every day, degree in hand, and wishing they could flip burgers, cuz they relied on thier so called degree to get them by.


If you think schools are bad, become a teacher, and bring the change you think it should be. Otherwise quit bitching about it. You want schools to teach but you sure bellyache when the state raises taxes to pay for education. Be a part of the solution, instead of the problem.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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it's NOT the school's problem. sure there are incompetent teachers... but i think the root of the problem lies with the PARENTS.
 

buckmasterson

Senior member
Oct 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Sahakiel
There are two ways to get ahead in this world : Degrees and Experience.
One requires time, whereas the other requires effort.

The third way is not really a viable track. It's called luck and some people have it, more people don't. If you wish to wager your future on luck, perhaps you should take a good look at Las Vegas.

LOL!!! I think about how many Engineers have come through my place of employment who have given the time in school and ARE NOT willing to give the effort at work. 60% of the grads I've met think they already know everything and are unwilling to be taught anything when they arrive! Sorry to burst bubbles here, but today's business is looking for someone who will hit the ground running.

I will say that a degree is the only way to go for young people, but the degree is only a start for their future learning experience. The degree is part of the balance we look for, but ONLY a part!


 
Jan 12, 2003
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...maybe this will thread will lead to a decrease in the "sick of our jobs going overseas" threads. Enjoy your 'social life', sir. "We don't need no stinkin' HS diplomas."

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
More School News from Georgia, Head of Education Proposes skipping Civil War, it never happened:

Georgia Schools to skip War Civil War

A proposal to all but skip the Civil War in high school history classes has state Superintendent Kathy Cox defending her views again.

But detractors are "up in arms, no pun intended," said Andy Preston, who sat on the committee that worked on proposed state social studies standards.

But he worries whether fifth- or even eighth-graders have the maturity to deal with a topic as complex as the Civil War. So does Darrell Huckaby, a 29-year teaching veteran who teaches advanced-placement U.S. history at Heritage High School in Rockdale County.

"It just doesn't make sense to learn half of history," said Huckaby, who notes that his class follows a national curriculum that begins in 1607 and ends about at the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

To teach less, Huckaby said, is to expect less of students.

Under the proposed standards, Georgia's high-schoolers would pretty much start at Reconstruction and move onward.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Sahakiel
There are two ways to get ahead in this world : Degrees and Experience.
One requires time, whereas the other requires effort.

The third way is not really a viable track. It's called luck and some people have it, more people don't. If you wish to wager your future on luck, perhaps you should take a good look at Las Vegas.

Based in Vegas:D
Also have degree & experience.

I am well covered ;)
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Cerb
BTW, is not AA Associate in Arts? I'm going for an AS and then most likely a BS.

My apologies. I treat an associates degree as a junior Bachelors degree. No matter what the study area.

Most (not all) junior college course are designed to bring students up to a common footing where they can then advance into the meat of the degree that they are chasing.

A BA vs BS still requires a comprehensive education in a specialized area.
And there are some BA that are easier than others. Some BS area also easier.

 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
BTW, is not AA Associate in Arts? I'm going for an AS and then most likely a BS.

My apologies. I treat an associates degree as a junior Bachelors degree. No matter what the study area.

Most (not all) junior college course are designed to bring students up to a common footing where they can then advance into the meat of the degree that they are chasing.
Yeah, where I'm at they technically offer the BS, but not enough people sign up for classes to fill the hours, so it's a vapor degree (though I'll be looking into part-time jobs and internships well before I decide exactly what BS to take). Their big thing is nursing, anyway. However, taking a few classes with your typical "want fries with that?" people makes that arts/science difference meaningful :).
A BA vs BS still requires a comprehensive education in a specialized area.
And there are some BA that are easier than others. Some BS area also easier.
Also depends on the person. I would personally prefer taking one I'll actually value, as opposed to an easy one.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Well, the strict answer is yes, it is pretty much meaningless, for those who are going to pursue a technical career.

Part of the problem is that there is too much to know. College is entry level for most things, with additional training afterwards.

What I do not like is the attitude that education equals native intelligence. Many of the people I associate are/were in construction, or carpentry, or some such thing. My father was an electrician after leaving the service. He never had better than a GED. Many of these have more brains than college grads I have known.

Education has value, but much of it is not understood. Too many think it is about a job, forgetting it is it's own ends as well. An education be it formal, or from reading books, makes for a larger world.

 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Education has value, but much of it is not understood. Too many think it is about a job, forgetting it is it's own ends as well. An education be it formal, or from reading books, makes for a larger world.

Wow, welcome to my side of the fence, sir :) Though I have a great job and 15 years of higher education, I still sit for at least one class a semester...this semester--two. I have an affinity for knowledge. As you alluded to, many feel that sitting in some community college for two years equates to being well-educated, at least enough "to get a job." Education should be a lifelong pursuit.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
It is meaningless in terms of the educations that is provided nodays.

However, it can still be used as a yardstick for measuring the drive/determination of a person.

One who drops out of HS will usually be less reliable than one that at least finished.

That's horsepucky, or at least a generalization. Thousands of kids can't handle the stupidity and social acclimation of high school. It has nothing to do with their intelligence or reliability. As a general rule I trust people that don't 'fit in' before I trust those who acclimate.

I think it's reasonable to say that many who drop out on their own are unreliable, but many who are forced out are merely incompatible with the BS system present in school today. It's also fair to clarify 'unreliable' as you use it...likely meaning 'they won't shut up and do exactly as they're told when it's obviously wrong and possibly detrimental'. No, people who drop out are seldom rank and file employees. But that's a good thing.

Many of my friends (and myself) chose alternative education routes (home school, alternative schools, GED, State diploma from colleges) and therefore officially 'dropped out' of high school, yet they are the most intelligent, capable, dependable people I have ever met.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
Is it meaningless? It's USA Today, so um...yeah.

I don't have mine, and instead am going straight for an Associates in CS, because it's easier, and will be seen better--rightfully so, as well. Why is it that now I spend around 10 hours each week in a classroom, and learn more than when I spent 36!? Of course I could give many reasons why, so don't bother replying to that.

And...11th grade, after taking the SATs, in homeroom, a girl speaks up, talking about it:
"I ain't never seen no math with numbers before!"

IMO, it's very simple. People have not changed. We have a similar bell curve in intelligence and achievement (including potential achievement) as in the past. SO if you increase the numbers in high school, you decrease the value of the diploma. If you increase the number of people succeeding in high school, you further devalue it.
In addition, the techniques leading to doing this can often hinder those of us who gave a damn, and who might want or even need good jobs (doctors aren't free, and I cost a lot each month).

When you hit the real world, an AA does not carry much weight.
Yes more than a HS, but by not having a HS or GED, it shows that you do not have the stamina/fortitude to handle the grunt work.
What is said about the easy way out will show. Best thing is to ensure that you have a HS to show along with the AA.

I wasn't aware you could get into a AA degree program without at least a GED; maybe it depends on the program.

Either way, yes, many programs that you can get an AA degree in will only take you so far. However, once you have that AA degree you can always go to a 4 year college and get a Bachelors degree in whatever you got the AA degree in.(remember, you have 60 credits now, only 60 more to a Bachelors)

I assume you're talking about semester hours or something, and not credits...since every school i've been to requires 90ish credits for the 2year degree, not 60.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
Is it meaningless? It's USA Today, so um...yeah.

I don't have mine, and instead am going straight for an Associates in CS, because it's easier, and will be seen better--rightfully so, as well. Why is it that now I spend around 10 hours each week in a classroom, and learn more than when I spent 36!? Of course I could give many reasons why, so don't bother replying to that.

And...11th grade, after taking the SATs, in homeroom, a girl speaks up, talking about it:
"I ain't never seen no math with numbers before!"

IMO, it's very simple. People have not changed. We have a similar bell curve in intelligence and achievement (including potential achievement) as in the past. SO if you increase the numbers in high school, you decrease the value of the diploma. If you increase the number of people succeeding in high school, you further devalue it.
In addition, the techniques leading to doing this can often hinder those of us who gave a damn, and who might want or even need good jobs (doctors aren't free, and I cost a lot each month).

When you hit the real world, an AA does not carry much weight.
Yes more than a HS, but by not having a HS or GED, it shows that you do not have the stamina/fortitude to handle the grunt work.
What is said about the easy way out will show. Best thing is to ensure that you have a HS to show along with the AA.

I wasn't aware you could get into a AA degree program without at least a GED; maybe it depends on the program.

Either way, yes, many programs that you can get an AA degree in will only take you so far. However, once you have that AA degree you can always go to a 4 year college and get a Bachelors degree in whatever you got the AA degree in.(remember, you have 60 credits now, only 60 more to a Bachelors)

I assume you're talking about semester hours or something, and not credits...since every school i've been to requires 90ish credits for the 2year degree, not 60.
Quarter hours generally use 90, semester 60, AFAIK.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
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Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Cerb
Is it meaningless? It's USA Today, so um...yeah.

I don't have mine, and instead am going straight for an Associates in CS, because it's easier, and will be seen better--rightfully so, as well. Why is it that now I spend around 10 hours each week in a classroom, and learn more than when I spent 36!? Of course I could give many reasons why, so don't bother replying to that.

And...11th grade, after taking the SATs, in homeroom, a girl speaks up, talking about it:
"I ain't never seen no math with numbers before!"

IMO, it's very simple. People have not changed. We have a similar bell curve in intelligence and achievement (including potential achievement) as in the past. SO if you increase the numbers in high school, you decrease the value of the diploma. If you increase the number of people succeeding in high school, you further devalue it.
In addition, the techniques leading to doing this can often hinder those of us who gave a damn, and who might want or even need good jobs (doctors aren't free, and I cost a lot each month).

When you hit the real world, an AA does not carry much weight.
Yes more than a HS, but by not having a HS or GED, it shows that you do not have the stamina/fortitude to handle the grunt work.
What is said about the easy way out will show. Best thing is to ensure that you have a HS to show along with the AA.

I wasn't aware you could get into a AA degree program without at least a GED; maybe it depends on the program.

Either way, yes, many programs that you can get an AA degree in will only take you so far. However, once you have that AA degree you can always go to a 4 year college and get a Bachelors degree in whatever you got the AA degree in.(remember, you have 60 credits now, only 60 more to a Bachelors)

I assume you're talking about semester hours or something, and not credits...since every school i've been to requires 90ish credits for the 2year degree, not 60.
Quarter hours generally use 90, semester 60, AFAIK.


That's what I meant...I just got to work and my brain is still in slow mo.