Is the civil war already here?

[woolfe9998]

I believe this hurts more than it helps in the current political climate. Most people, especially swing voters, do not pay attention to details or nuances when it comes to politics. You write something like "Democrats are too woke but Republicans are fascist" and 99% of people that don't already recognize that Republicans are fascist are going to come away with "Democrats are too woke" and completely ignore the rest.

I disagree because it depends on the context of the criticism. My criticisms, for the moment, are levelled on an internet discussion forum consisting of about 80% liberal posters. I am telling other liberals we need to clean up our act because of some what we are saying and doing is making it harder for us to fight the threat to democracy we face.

Explain exactly who these people on the left are because they aren't politicians at the federal level. They are usually random internet strangers and bloggers.

They are activists, some of prominence, some are nobody's. All are having their views elevated by the mainstream press and also by way of Hollywood through popular culture.

Democrat pols are getting tarred with this because the right's usual attempt to tar the left with these fringe views is being aided by both news media and popular culture.

Please, think for a damn second about the mentality of a person who is a swing voter in this political climate. Think about the amount of apathy and/or brainwashing required to be a swing voter in this political climate. If someone hasn't been reached by now, no amount of coddling is going to overcome it. No amount of badgering will overcome it either. Barring the completely apathetic, these are people actively searching for any and every reason to criticize Democrats to maintain the belief that both sides are just as bad. They will read the above and come away with "Democrats are too woke" because that is what they want. It is what they have always wanted and will always want.

Yes, there is much to be criticized in anyone who doesn't fully appreciate the authoritarian threat coming from the right. So what? A swing voter is, by literal definition, someone who can vote for either party. You're lumping them in with hardcore Trumpists who are a lost cause, which by literal definition, they are not.

I take issue with your assertion that mainstream media is playing to a liberal market, on many levels. First of all, and again I know you know this, conservative media is mainstream. Just calling everything else mainstream media is playing into their hands. Do us all a favor and refer to it as "not batshit rightwing media (NBRM)" because that's what it is. Secondly, if NBRM is playing to liberals, and I'm not conceding that it is, it would be because batshit rightwingers avoid consuming it, which naturally means their consumers skew liberal. As you know, media outlets publish for the clicks, and outrage generates clicks. If you want to blame someone for being divisive, put the blame where it belongs: on the media and not on Democrats. We could probably count on one hand the number of legitimately divisive statements made by Democrats and even those would be open to debate.

I already said exactly this in a post before this. They are playing to a liberal market because conservatives left mainstream media (or "NBRM" if you prefer) a long time ago. They're doing it for money, not ideology. Same reason they over-covered Trump both in 2016 and during his presidency. Because it sold.

This sounds like an editorial. How would you address your concerns here? I mean, what is the solution? The media can publish whatever the fuck it wants, however it wants. On a side note, my initial reaction to this story was disgust, similar to that which you are conveying. However, I am working on training myself to thoroughly examine things that trigger disgust and have come up with the following: how can I, a white male, criticize what that author feels about that issue? To outsiders like us, there are likely a myriad of complexities with just this one issue that we don't realize and may never understand.

It wasn't styled as an editorial, but rather a fact piece. Then again, that distinction has been blurred by CNN, WaPo, and NYT in recent years, so I get why it sounds like an editorial.

I don't want to give you the impression this is isolated. It was an arbitrarily chosen example from recent memory. I read shit like this almost daily. Want something much worse?

About 6 weeks ago CNN runs a guest editorial by a black man whose opinion is this: black men should stop supporting R Kelly because, and only because, his victims were, after all, black women, and we don't do enough to support our black women. And it goes on, and gets worse. White feminists "stole the BLM movement" from its black founders hence cannot be trusted. It's utterly racist and vile. It's pure black nationalism. Why did CNN run this racist garbage? What if a white guy had submitted an editorial saying white men should not support Harvey Weinstein, but only because his victims were white? Can you imagine?

Oh, I forgot, according to the media, black people are excused from being racist, because CRT and woke activists have defined them out of the scope of that word, so technically, says the media, they can't be racist. So they'll print racist things they say. Oh, not to mention that they can be just as homophobic and transphobic as they wish, judging from Dave Chapelle's undiminished popularity. Yes, both homophobia and transphobia are worse on average in black communities than white communities, but this is rarely discussed in MSM for fear of ever criticizing black people for anything.

Oh, and what does that editorialist and Chappelle's humor have in common? Answer: they both divide and separate constituent groups of the left. The one wants to divide black women from white women by encouraging black women to think racially rather than in terms of feminist solidarity with other women. While Chappelle seeks to divide blacks from gays and trans by classifying all the calls for gay rights as a bunch of whiney feminine bitching, while the blacks are the only really oppressed people.

Bear in mind that these swing voters we discussed above, most of them view MSM, not conservative media. And what impression are they getting from reading this swill? And suppose one decides to watch an episode of say, Tucker Carlson, for a different perspective, and they hear him falsely claim that this kind of nonsense is what most liberals believe? Well, it IS what they're seeing daily on MSM, isn't it? So it seems kind of pervasive, right?

Liberals at all levels, from prominent ones to rank and file, need to denounce this crap as fringe ideas of extremists which are being sold by corporate media for profit. And they need to get a thicker skin about being called a racist for saying so.

The police and their unions are doing all that just fine without the help of the media. Sure, the media isn't helping, whether it be because of the race to be first rather than accurate, or because of a desire to maximize clicks, but I do not believe the media to be the primary cause.

This has little to do with how well police are doing. It has everything to do with the fact that the vast majority of voters think we need police for safety. And when MSM and certain liberal activists constantly attack police, which undeniably is done in an often dishonest manner (mainly by cherry picking incidents), we alienate voters from the left. And not just white voters. Look at the exit polls from 2020. A sizeable shift among older black and Latino voters toward Trump, mainly over riots and policing.

Police already think people on the left hate them and that POC hate them. They have always thought that, and for the most part, they are fucking right. Unlike the right-wing, I refuse to cater to evil in order to achieve my political goals.

I too have some animus towards police. All of which is irrelevant to my point.

I'll need an example of how identity politics is "framed" by big media or popular culture. In my experience, this almost always translates to "I don't care what gay people do in their bedrooms I just don't want it in my face" type of bullshit. Catering to bigots is a fool's errand.

I've given you more than one already. Moronic ideas of the left: blacks cannot be racist, "cultural appropriation," color blind liberalism is bad, there is no such thing as "merit," the country's single founding principle was white supremacy, et multiple cetera. Are all treated by MSM as assumed fact. They hardly ever even print a contrary view.

The point is that Democrats do not suck. They are far from perfect but they are also far from sucking. The only reason they haven't fixed most of everything is that they have not been given the power to change anything for 40 years, except a few months where they were able to push the ACA through. It isn't messaging. It isn't their flaws. It is a fucking sick population susceptible to misinformation and lies. Period.

This isn't about dems in Congress at all. They're fine, except for Manchin and Sinema. This is about MSM and a portion of the rank and file democrats, and activists.

That's the $500M question, isn't it? The best I have come up with is stop tolerating bullshit. Shut that shit down in our personal lives ASAP. I don't have any personal contact and dialog with any conservatives other than my mother but I needle her constantly. She is so close to breaking through but the mental devices they employ to prevent reason are relentless. The most effective question I have found so far is "Imagine that Democrats gain full control of the federal government for 10-12 years. What is the worst thing you think will realistically happen in that scenario?" Any answer(s) they give to that question can be ripped apart. Make them feel fucking crazy for believing crazy, as it should be. Until you show people their fears are unfounded nothing will change.

Uh yeah. I stopped tolerating bullshit a long time ago. The difference here is that my lack of toleration for bullshit extends to my own camp, not just the other one.

 

[HomerJS]

About 6 weeks ago CNN runs a guest editorial by a black man whose opinion is this: black men should stop supporting R Kelly because, and only because, his victims were, after all, black women, and we don't do enough to support our black women. And it goes on, and gets worse. White feminists "stole the BLM movement" from its black founders hence cannot be trusted. It's utterly racist and vile. It's pure black nationalism. Why did CNN run this racist garbage? What if a white guy had submitted an editorial saying white men should not support Harvey Weinstein, but only because his victims were white? Can you imagine?

Oh, I forgot, according to the media, black people are excused from being racist, because CRT and woke activists have defined them out of the scope of that word, so technically, says the media, they can't be racist. So they'll print racist things they say. Oh, not to mention that they can be just as homophobic and transphobic as they wish, judging from Dave Chapelle's undiminished popularity. Yes, both homophobia and transphobia are worse on average in black communities than white communities, but this is rarely discussed in MSM for fear of ever criticizing black people for anything.

Oh, and what does that editorialist and Chappelle's humor have in common? Answer: they both divide and separate constituent groups of the left. The one wants to divide black women from white women by encouraging black women to think racially rather than in terms of feminist solidarity with other women. While Chappelle seeks to divide blacks from gays and trans by classifying all the calls for gay rights as a bunch of whiney feminine bitching, while the blacks are the only really oppressed people.

Bear in mind that these swing voters we discussed above, most of them view MSM, not conservative media. And what impression are they getting from reading this swill? And suppose one decides to watch an episode of say, Tucker Carlson, for a different perspective, and they hear him falsely claim that this kind of nonsense is what most liberals believe? Well, it IS what they're seeing daily on MSM, isn't it? So it seems kind of pervasive, right?

Liberals at all levels, from prominent ones to rank and file, need to denounce this crap as fringe ideas of extremists which are being sold by corporate media for profit. And they need to get a thicker skin about being called a racist for saying so.

Can you post a link to that editorial? I would like to judge for myself. I've listened to Dave Chapelle's standup and don't consider it homophobic or racist.

 

[MrSquished]

I've been having a good day today. Got some work done, sunny out, took the dog to the vet for his 3 year distemper shot, have a 3rd date with a really cute and interesting girl tonight. Just a nice routine day with good things to look forward to.

I got home and I usually keep NPR on so the dog is not always in silence if I'm working quietly on my computer, but also because I like NPR. But hearing about Jan 6, and clips of these traitorous fascist scumbags being interviewed about how they wanted to hang the Democrats.

Pure evil. Pure evil people.

Liberals get your guns, and convince all the liberals you know to go get a gun too. Practice with them, keep 'em locked up for when these insane evil loons possibly come for your government.