The whole mess will make alot more sense if you go read about how Taiwan became "independent" in the first place...
The whole mess will make alot more sense if you go read about how Taiwan became "independent" in the first place...
Thats pretty good. You've talked to chinese people. I was born there and I have relatives there. trust me, not everybody thinks Mao is the greatest.
if you showed that movie to a typical taiwanese 19 year old girl, she would not know what it was on the ceiling either.
yes there is sexual repression in China but there was sexual repression long before communism and it is not because of population control that sexual repression occurs.
your knowledge of Chinese culture is surface at best.
Once and for all, I would like to make it really clear that those of you in this thread who are defending Taiwan as a sovereign country need a serious reality check.
First off, I would like to make it really clear that I grew up in Taiwan and the Republic of China means a lot more to me than the People's Republic of China ever will. However, the pro-independence ideology simply is not realistic nor will it ever work.
I'm currently taking a class on Chinese prison camps since Mao Zedong took over. While Mao has been a cruel, totalitarian dictator and killed thousands upon thousands of political prisoners, his rule propelled China in to the modern age. There is no doubt that China now holds leverage on every major country in the world. The US trade deficit with China is in the billions and can ill afford to have China as its enemy. China's purchasing power is significant leverage on its European counterparts. China has withheld its multi billion dollar order of the Airbus A380 superjet as leverage for Europe to lift its arms ban on China following the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989. German car companies are investing billions in China to produce car manufacturing plants. Mercedes, VW already have plants set up with more companies sure to follow.
China is far from perfect, its human rights record is an atrocity, but compare it with the way it was just 20 years ago, the improvement is extraordinary. Yes China is still a communist government, but its economy is, for all intents and purposes, a free market, capitalist economy. It's state wide censorship, while still in place, is lax compared to what it was just a few years. You can even get CNN, BBC, ESPN at any home for the right price.
Since the United States abandoned formal ties with Taiwan and established diplomatic ties with China, Taiwan has had the scales tipped against her. China's economy has grown stronger and stronger while Taiwan's economy has been stagnant to say the least. Taiwanese businessmen numbering in the millions have already taken their businesses to the mainland because it is far more profitable there than it is in Taiwan. Taiwan's money diplomacy simply does not work anymore. The only countries that recognize Taiwan as a country are miniscule, insignificant countries in the Caribean, South America, and Africa. The only reason they recognize Taiwan is million Taiwan has pledged to them. However, for every million Taiwan gives, China is giving ten million and buying products from them with their enormous demands for more products. More and more of these countries are beginning to abandon Taiwan and establish diplomatic ties with China.
Taiwan has everything to lose and nothing to gain from declaring independence from China. If Taiwan declares independence, China would attack and Taiwan would not stand a chance. Bush has already said that if President Chen contradicts Bush and insists on declaring independence, the United States will not have an obligation to defend Taiwan. If Taiwan were to reunited with China, the people that would benefit most from this will be people like us on Anandtech. Think about it, Asus, Gigabyte, Shuttle, Aopen, ECS and many others are all based in Taiwan, yet they have outsourced a good amount of the manufacturing process to China due to its cheap labor. If Taiwan were to reunited, the direct trade routes will be open and all the tech companies will be able to produce all the lastest and greatest computer hardware and ship it out to us faster and cheaper. It's a win-win situation. The People's Republic of China has evolved over the years to the modern era and managed to avoid following the footsteps of the Soviet Union. There's is no reason to assume it will not continue to do so.
yhelothar
Lifer
- Dec 11, 2002
- 18,409
- 39
- 91
Ok..
And you just wrote all that, and you still haven't said anything about taiwan not being sovereign.
No one is arguing against your points on China's economic power now. We all agree with that. But the point is that Taiwan is a sovereign state, so by definition it is a country. PERIOD.
Also it wasn't because of Mao Ze Dong that China is a superpower now. It's because of Deng Xiao Ping, who finally decentralized china and spread capitalism there to finally allow it to grow. Mao's communist centralized policies were only hindering China's full capability.
China has lots of man power. But each man is still getting far less than any developed nation, which is why china is still considered a third world country.
And you just wrote all that, and you still haven't said anything about taiwan not being sovereign.
No one is arguing against your points on China's economic power now. We all agree with that. But the point is that Taiwan is a sovereign state, so by definition it is a country. PERIOD.
Also it wasn't because of Mao Ze Dong that China is a superpower now. It's because of Deng Xiao Ping, who finally decentralized china and spread capitalism there to finally allow it to grow. Mao's communist centralized policies were only hindering China's full capability.
China has lots of man power. But each man is still getting far less than any developed nation, which is why china is still considered a third world country.
Is Taiwan a sovereign nation? Heh, if today the earth is an utopia where money and politic doesn't matter, Taiwan is definitely a sovereign nation. We have our own government, elects our own officials, have our own central bank with our own currency and an economy that ranks 19th in the world. (based on GDP) Communist Chinese government never had official claim or control over Taiwan, Japan returned Taiwan to Republic of China (government of Taiwan, that lost the civil war to communist China) after WWII. ROC was able to defend Taiwan from communist China's invasion in the early 50s/60s.
But hey, I am a realist. The world revolves around money and power, $$ and guns talk. Since China is now one of the world's top economy with most "potential" growth, it also has one of the largest military, nobody in their right mind will wanna mess with them. So whatever China say is right, and the world follows. So naturally, Taiwan is part of China, just like communist Chinese claimed, and no one is gonna rebuke them, unless they don't want the potential Chinese market or wanna mess with Chinese military might. Hey, even Taiwanese ourselves is afraid of China, and don't dare to claim independence....so who can blame the rest of the world.
But hey, I am a realist. The world revolves around money and power, $$ and guns talk. Since China is now one of the world's top economy with most "potential" growth, it also has one of the largest military, nobody in their right mind will wanna mess with them. So whatever China say is right, and the world follows. So naturally, Taiwan is part of China, just like communist Chinese claimed, and no one is gonna rebuke them, unless they don't want the potential Chinese market or wanna mess with Chinese military might. Hey, even Taiwanese ourselves is afraid of China, and don't dare to claim independence....so who can blame the rest of the world.
How can you claim to be a sovereign state when the only countries willing to recognize you are the likes of grenada? Not even France recognizes Taiwan.
Taiwan is praying that China doesn't have a new holiday entitled "National Synchonized Jumping Day"
If China dont force countries to break off ties with Taiwan, everyone would surely recognize Taiwan. So does the Chinese government dare to loosen its "hold"?
The dont recognize Taiwan, but they do stamp my "ROC" Passport.
For true enlightenment, one must first master and understand the terms de jure and de facto. Taiwan is a de jure part of China. De facto, it is essentially an autonomous state.
DainBramaged
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2003
- 23,454
- 41
- 91
Isn't it like all the liberals moving to Hawaii and then declaring it it's own communist independant state?
ed21x
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 2001
- 5,411
- 8
- 81
ok, let's clear the entire "republic of China" issue that no one here seems to understand. Prior to the communist takeover, Taiwan was an island peacefully ruled by Japan for many years(up until 1949. By this time, the ruler of china was the Nationalist government.
Everything changed AFTER the communist revolution, as the nationalists fled to Taiwan, but still harbored the dream of reconquering the entire mainland after a huge swarm of peasants pushed them out. Heck, even the United States held dreams of the nationalists retaking the mainland, and the nationalists retained the title of China until a few years later when it became apparent that the nationalists will never retake the mainland.
Thus Taiwan was never at any point ruled by the communist government, and more importantly, never a part of the mainland. However, the name China still persists in the title of Taiwan as a relic of the nationalist regime (KMT), as does many company names like China Airlines, China Shipbuilding Co, etc.... all companies owned by Taiwanese, retaining the title from back when they were in the mainland.
As for China taking over Taiwan... we all know the disparity between the two sides of the straight. We know how the average Taiwanese has a purchasing power parity of $26,400 while the mainlanders have aroiund $1500. We know the social upheavals, the repression of religion, the propaganda machine, and human rights record of China. If anything, China can only bring down Taiwan to their level. However, in order to maintain order, the communist government continues to control the airwaves, media, and minds of the people, focusing them purely on how great China. As part of this propaganda, Taiwan will always be a card played by the Mainland government to instill nationalism, unity, and mindless flag waving rather than focusing on other problems the nation has.
Everything changed AFTER the communist revolution, as the nationalists fled to Taiwan, but still harbored the dream of reconquering the entire mainland after a huge swarm of peasants pushed them out. Heck, even the United States held dreams of the nationalists retaking the mainland, and the nationalists retained the title of China until a few years later when it became apparent that the nationalists will never retake the mainland.
Thus Taiwan was never at any point ruled by the communist government, and more importantly, never a part of the mainland. However, the name China still persists in the title of Taiwan as a relic of the nationalist regime (KMT), as does many company names like China Airlines, China Shipbuilding Co, etc.... all companies owned by Taiwanese, retaining the title from back when they were in the mainland.
As for China taking over Taiwan... we all know the disparity between the two sides of the straight. We know how the average Taiwanese has a purchasing power parity of $26,400 while the mainlanders have aroiund $1500. We know the social upheavals, the repression of religion, the propaganda machine, and human rights record of China. If anything, China can only bring down Taiwan to their level. However, in order to maintain order, the communist government continues to control the airwaves, media, and minds of the people, focusing them purely on how great China. As part of this propaganda, Taiwan will always be a card played by the Mainland government to instill nationalism, unity, and mindless flag waving rather than focusing on other problems the nation has.
ed21x
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 2001
- 5,411
- 8
- 81
That's the thing... ,most countries maintain an outward facade of not endorsing Taiwanese independence to appease China after China bullies them around, but on the otherhand, treats Taiwan with absolute autonomy. Since you like France, we'll talk France
In the past ten years, the french government has "sided" with China in not recognizing Taiwan, yet has sold Taiwan 6 destroyers, 60 Mirage 2000-5 Air Superiority Fighters, and 300 Air to air missiles. Eh? Let you be the judge on words vs action. most countries trade freely with Taiwan without any respect the communist jurisdiction on trade. My ROC passport also lets me freely go to any nation without much of a fuss while Chinese people tend to struglle quite a bit to travel anyplace else. There is definitely a reason why Taiwan is so rich... and it has a great deal to do with how much it reaps the benefits of being recognized as an economic identity separate from China. To get the best of both worlds, maintain a few simple words to appease China but let your actions show otherwise.
ed21x
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 2001
- 5,411
- 8
- 81
You have to remember that Taiwan economy is pushing 80% service based, and has long since left dependence on manufacturing output to the mainland. This is done freely now, and the system in place is similar to how US automakers are moving car factories to Mexico to take advantage of the cheap labor. The money quite frankly only flows one way
Even then, do you think it would be advantageous to the United States if we became part of Mexico? Understand that the disparity between Taiwan standard of living and China is extremely significant. check the CIA world factbook if you must. A good majority of Taiwanese own companies in China. I believe 40% of Shanghai land is owned by Taiwanese investors. Thats definitely not going to change whether Taiwan becomes a part of China or not.
There is already a huge problem in Taiwan with having to deal with constant Chinese illegal immigrants trying to start a better life in Taiwan. Imagine how much worse it would be if sudddenly all these mainlanders suddenly diluge the island legally =\ We should try that with the Mexican border sometime.
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