Is Socialism inevitable?

[Sonikku]

Technology is making labor so cheap that even those settling for minimum wage seem to have their jobs at risk. Foxconn doesn't even want the dirt cheap labor they have in China so great is the impact technology and automation is having on the economy. Can Capitalism really endure as we continue to follow this path?

Even those that still have a job seem to be made to settle for same or less income as cost of living becomes ever greater. Automation continues to destroy more jobs than it creates. Could a breaking point be simmering that will boil over in the decades to come? What is really scary to me is the prospect of an AI.

It's probably coming this century. And when it arrives, it will have all kinds of bugs and people will laugh at it. But those bugs will get ironed out and I suspect when businesses start installing Engineering skillset software or any number of skillsets on a whim as needed that society is going to have to brace itself for the kind of upheaval no economy in history has ever had to face.

The sticking point comes when an AI drone can maintain other drones and itself. There could well come a point where the entire economy could run with only 20% of the population, or less. Will the other 80% resign themselves to their obsolescence and quietly die in the gutter or would there be mass protests? Possibilities like these are probably a long ways off and yet it seems clear that they're coming.

Can Capitalism endure? Is Socialism inevitable? Or is there a third option we've all overlooked?

Edit: Can't seem to edit the poll. The first option is supposed to say "Capitalism is fine as it is".

 

[glenn1]

Technology is making labor so cheap that even those settling for minimum wage seem to have their jobs at risk. Foxconn doesn't even want the dirt cheap labor they have in China so great is the impact technology and automation is having on the economy. Can Capitalism really endure as we continue to follow this path?

Even those that still have a job seem to be made to settle for same or less income as cost of living becomes ever greater. Automation continues to destroy more jobs than it creates. Could a breaking point be simmering that will boil over in the decades to come? What is really scary to me is the prospect of an AI.

It's probably coming this century. And when it arrives, it will have all kinds of bugs and people will laugh at it. But those bugs will get ironed out and I suspect when businesses start installing Engineering skillset software or any number of skillsets on a whim as needed that society is going to have to brace itself for the kind of upheaval no economy in history has ever had to face.

The sticking point comes when an AI drone can maintain other drones and itself. There could well come a point where the entire economy could run with only 20% of the population, or less. Will the other 80% resign themselves to their obsolescence and quietly die in the gutter or would there be mass protests? Possibilities like these are probably a long ways off and yet it seems clear that they're coming.

Can Capitalism endure? Is Socialism inevitable? Or is there a third option we've all overlooked?

Edit: Can't seem to editing the poll. The first option is supposed to say "Capitalism is fine as it is".

So after the socialists was the problem revolt to overthrow the rich then what? The 80% who had no economic value before will continue to have no value under socialism as well. And will be worse off without the contributions of those now dead 20% who were still creating economic value.

 

[Sonikku]

I fear you're turning this into an "Us vs Them" mentality when it's not. The large majority of the working population that does have value today may not have value in the future when an ai can do very nearly every job for less. It's even possible that that 20% thrown out there might even be significantly smaller, perhaps none at all will have economic value if we reach a point where an ai can think and do even deeply specialized tasks better and faster than a human that takes years to educate.

Basically I'm asking if technology could reach a point where business sense would eventually dictate an ai drone is always a better value for the money when compared to even the most hard working and responsible of human beings.

 

[DrPizza]

Newsflash, a lot of aspects of our society are already socialized. Do you call the police? Or do you call your private security? Do you call the fire department? Or do you have a company you pay for fighting your fires? Do you drive on public roads? Heard of the military? How about public libraries? The post office? National parks? A variety of museums, etc.? What about student loans that are gov't backed? How about most jails/prisons? Public parks? Beaches? All those damn street lights? National Weather Service? USDA? National monuments? (State monuments, city/town monuments?) There are probably hundreds of things that are for the common good that are socialized in this country. Stop acting like most of it isn't for the better of our society.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Newsflash, a lot of aspects of our society are already socialized. Do you call the police? Or do you call your private security? Do you call the fire department? Or do you have a company you pay for fighting your fires? Do you drive on public roads? Heard of the military? How about public libraries? The post office? National parks? A variety of museums, etc.? What about student loans that are gov't backed? How about most jails/prisons? Public parks? Beaches? All those damn street lights? National Weather Service? USDA? National monuments? (State monuments, city/town monuments?) There are probably hundreds of things that are for the common good that are socialized in this country. Stop acting like most of it isn't for the better of our society.

Came here to post this, definitely couldn't have said it any better. :thumbsup:

 

[Sonikku]

Clearly a lot of things are already socialized, socialism is a sliding scale. But could it be taken to an extreme if the human element is no longer necessary to operating the economy?

 

[flexy]

God this ANNOYING black & white thinking...of (mostly) you Americans.
Isn't there more than "Capitalism vs. Socialism"?

Yes there is, Europe is practicing it for ages already.
Your American, "wild" capitalism is obviously not "fine as it is", unless you support that corporates can do what they want and THEIR PROFIT (not the well-being of everyone else in society) is not a priority.

You CAN have capitalism without monopolies, eg. comcast does NOT have to dominate the market, dictate service, prices, internet speeds. Yes, BIG surprise, but it's really true!

You CAN have capitalism with seriously punishing corporates who manufacture in China and stash away profits in the Cayman Islands.

You CAN have capitalism with seriously punishing companies who hire illegals under the table.

And so fort, ad infinitum.

If there is a "socialist touch" to this wild capitalism, with regulations what corporates can and can't do, it doesn't mean Americans turns marxists, communists, "socialist", it's still the same effing system but with more regulations....and/or safety nets.

Ah...and PHHHULEASE.."economic value", my ass.

Go look at the top X companies, let's pick some randomly, like Apple. What do you think is their "economic value"? That Chen Hon in Shenzhen is making your iphone? rather than Joe from Jackson/TN? How much of Apple's profit do you think does ever see the US? Lol.

This "economic value" that you allege often exists on paper only. It makes for good numbers (GDP) and lucky shareholders, if you have stock in, say, Apple that is. It does more damage the economy than it provides value.

(If that wasn't so, we would live in a paradise. The exact opposite is the case, the majority of "normal" folks is doing worse and worse, only a tiny minority of people profit at the backs of many others)

 

[flexy]

Clearly a lot of things are already socialized, socialism is a sliding scale. But could it be taken to an extreme if the human element is no longer necessary to operating the economy?

Come on "they" probably said the same thing when they invented steam engines, cars, the telephone and last but not least the computer. I remember very well how people demonized computers since it seemed to herald the end of the working man.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Come on "they" probably said the same thing when they invented steam engines, cars, the telephone and last but not least the computer. I remember very well how people demonized computers since it seemed to herald the end of the working man.

to be fair, how many jobs has automation killed? 100,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000?

 

[Sonikku]

Come on "they" probably said the same thing when they invented steam engines, cars, the telephone and last but not least the computer. I remember very well how people demonized computers since it seemed to herald the end of the working man.

"They" never had to deal with the prospect of an A I. We aren't even there yet and things like this are happening. https://www.techinasia.com/foxconn-robots-china-job-losses

I don't think the steam engine people had a debacle half the scale of this one.

 

[senseamp]

Government will have to subsidize hiring humans, effectively by taxing the increased productivity from automation. Is that Socialism?

 

[woolfe9998]

I think society is probably headed in the direction of a more socialized economy, in the long haul. The reason has more to do with technology than anything. Automation will continue to eliminate jobs in the future to the point where there will ultimately be far greater structural unemployment than there is now. The conservative argument against a social safety net - that it breeds laziness - will ultimately be irrelevant if it isn't already. Doesn't matter if welfare is making people lazy if there are no jobs for them. What I foresee in the future is a much higher percentage of the population living off of social welfare.

That said, people who work will continue to have a much higher living standard. And there will always be free enterprise, and people/corporations who are wealthy. That will never change because the drive to achieve wealth will never change.

 

[1prophet]

Clearly a lot of things are already socialized, socialism is a sliding scale. But could it be taken to an extreme if the human element is no longer necessary to operating the economy?

Yes in sci-fi movies, like in this movie "I-robot" that shows robots gathering trash as effective if not more so than any garbageman in effect eliminating that specific job for humans.

This is the real world

10 reasons why human level Artificial Intelligence is a false promise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyrUC0biqTA

 

[sandorski]

It sure seems inevitable at this point. That could change, but before it does there needs to be a new Industry invented that requires a large pool of Labour. In the 1980s that was the PC Industry, in the 1990s that was the Internet, perhaps Alternative Energy will be the Industry that soon will fill that void, but only time will tell.

 

[Jhhnn]

Clearly a lot of things are already socialized, socialism is a sliding scale. But could it be taken to an extreme if the human element is no longer necessary to operating the economy?

It would have to be simply because it would be the only way to distribute robot produced goods & services. Otherwise, robot production has no societal purpose.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes in sci-fi movies, like in this movie "I-robot" that shows robots gathering trash as effective if not more so than any garbageman in effect eliminating that specific job for humans.

This is the real world

10 reasons why human level Artificial Intelligence is a false promise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyrUC0biqTA

What is intelligence. What is consciousness. How did elements form organic molecules that replicate themselves. The Holman brain appears to to have a structure that simulates the universe as a virtual inner replication, an image is a thinking device conceptualizing itself via 5 or so senses in the real world. Neurons seem to establish favored connections according to stimulus with the overall program to be one of self survival and replication. Why th spouse functions and abilities can't exist by mapping the human brain on something other than a carbon base or even a far more efficient carbon base does not seem impossible to me. I don't see why it seems impossible to others. The very fact of our existence tells me it's possible. There seem to be a number of different brain designs that posess conscious awareness, including the small brain of a crow. Doubt just looks like human arrogance to me. And there seem to be a lot of scientists who are working to create such a reality. They must not have gotten the message it can't be done.

 

[Moonbeam]

Government will have to subsidize hiring humans, effectively by taxing the increased productivity from automation. Is that Socialism?

I don't know but if machines can perform human labor and human labor is what causes humans to survive then they can do the work and we can play. All capitalism is using the labor of the many to fatten up a few rich. Why can't the machines fatten up everybody. Just imagine the wonders this world would posess today if we hadn't destroyed most everything we have built. The earth could be a garden with trillions of worker ants and a few billion queens. How many horses of power fall every day on the earth for free from the sun. Imagine if human greed became an absurdity in a world where there is more to posess than any king could ever conceive.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think society is probably headed in the direction of a more socialized economy, in the long haul. The reason has more to do with technology than anything. Automation will continue to eliminate jobs in the future to the point where there will ultimately be far greater structural unemployment than there is now. The conservative argument against a social safety net - that it breeds laziness - will ultimately be irrelevant if it isn't already. Doesn't matter if welfare is making people lazy if there are no jobs for them. What I foresee in the future is a much higher percentage of the population living off of social welfare.

That said, people who work will continue to have a much higher living standard. And there will always be free enterprise, and people/corporations who are wealthy. That will never change because the drive to achieve wealth will never change.

Why should those who are allowed to work have a *much* higher living standard?

Because they're mostly luckier than other people with roughly equal skill sets?

None of us are the special snowflakes we like to think we are. Everybody is replaceable. What happens when nearly all of us are replaced by machines?

Should we allow wealth & income to simply accumulate in the ownership class while they cut us out?

 

[piasabird]

Socialism is a kind of a pipe dream it just cant work unless God is running it. Men tend to become corrupt over time unless there is some kind of system to keep them balanced. That is the problem with the government and elected and appointed officials. As long as it is someone else's money it leads to corruption and ruin. People always want more and more till the whole system collapses. That is socialism. Argentina and Detroit and Greece and Spain are all good examples.

 

[Moonbeam]

Why should those who are allowed to work have a *much* higher living standard?

Because they're mostly luckier than other people with roughly equal skill sets?

None of us are the special snowflakes we like to think we are. Everybody is replaceable. What happens when nearly all of us are replaced by machines?

Should we allow wealth & income to simply accumulate in the ownership class while they cut us out?

Suppose you and I own a robot factory run by robots who extract everything they need from the earth and the sea to make robot factories. My robots can make robot factories at no cost to me and so can you. And if you tried to sell one of those factories for a nickel l could undercut your price. I have no overhead because my robots do everything for me. I just don't need the nickel.

 

[1prophet]

What is intelligence. What is consciousness. How did elements form organic molecules that replicate themselves. The Holman brain appears to to have a structure that simulates the universe as a virtual inner replication, an image is a thinking device conceptualizing itself via 5 or so senses in the real world. Neurons seem to establish favored connections according to stimulus with the overall program to be one of self survival and replication. Why th spouse functions and abilities can't exist by mapping the human brain on something other than a carbon base or even a far more efficient carbon base does not seem impossible to me. I don't see why it seems impossible to others. The very fact of our existence tells me it's possible. There seem to be a number of different brain designs that posess conscious awareness, including the small brain of a crow. Doubt just looks like human arrogance to me. And there seem to be a lot of scientists who are working to create such a reality. They must not have gotten the message it can't be done.

Because they (the corporations funding these ai programs) are looking for the next slave to do there bidding not an intelligence for the sake of intelligence but a replacement for humans who might get all uppity and complain about working conditions, pay, benefits, etc. ,

even a crow with it's small brain values it's freedom and we are still light years away from something equivalent to a crow.

 

[Moonbeam]

Socialism is a kind of a pipe dream it just cant work unless God is running it. Men tend to become corrupt over time unless there is some kind of system to keep them balanced. That is the problem with the government and elected and appointed officials. As long as it is someone else's money it leads to corruption and ruin. People always want more and more till the whole system collapses. That is socialism. Argentina and Detroit and Greece and Spain are all good examples.

In the first place only people who can be corrupted can be corrupted. You can't corrupt people who love virtue. It is its own and only reward, the greatest reward there is. People feel neediness beyond what it takes to survive because they live in a state of misery called self hate. It turns loving souls into vacuum cleaners sucking on other vacuum cleaners. People become vacuum cleaners because what they are trying to suck is what they were made to feel they don't have but actually do, hidden beneath the lies they were told as children. The enlightened, for lack of a better term, are self content, full of love and compassion for others. Their wealth is so vast they have a need to share it. They are like stars that explode fertilizing the universe with heavy elements.

 

[Moonbeam]

Because they (the corporations funding these ai programs) are looking for the next slave to do there bidding not an intelligence for the sake of intelligence but a replacement for humans who might get all uppity and complain about working conditions, pay, benefits, etc. ,

even a crow with it's small brain values it's freedom and we are still light years away from something equivalent to a crow.

I know that we were up to spider many years ago. I also know something about what a. Geometric increase in knowledge implies. Many predict a singularity not so mant years from now. Just imagine what life would exist on earth if life had reached the sophistication of spiders in say 100 years.

 

[glenn1]

Why should those who are allowed to work have a *much* higher living standard?

Because they're mostly luckier than other people with roughly equal skill sets?

None of us are the special snowflakes we like to think we are. Everybody is replaceable. What happens when nearly all of us are replaced by machines?

Should we allow wealth & income to simply accumulate in the ownership class while they cut us out?

The perfect example of my point from earlier. People like Jhhnn want socialism because it gives their otherwise empty life meaning when they realize they have effectively no economic value because they bring no new ideas, creativity, or special insight to the world. Of course they never did truly have value before but before they could pretend they did because they had some make-work job screwing on lug nuts or sewing in the garment factory or whatever. Once the AI does away with their pointless "job" they'll need to deal with the fact they're essentially clingers-on who won't be missed anymore than someone living in a mud hut as a hunter-gatherer hasn't been missed for centuries either.

So sorry folks, it's not society's job to create purpose for you by providing some pointless "dig a hole and fill it back in" job just so you can feel you have value. Go make yourself actually valuable by doing the hard work to be scientists, artists, innovators - your value will remain in the future AI world because your value isn't tied to someone else giving you a sense of value just because they pay you for some make work.

 

[Moonbeam]

The perfect example of my point from earlier. People like Jhhnn want socialism because it gives their otherwise empty life meaning when they realize they have effectively no economic value because they bring no new ideas, creativity, or special insight to the world. Of course they never did truly have value before but before they could pretend they did because they had some make-work job screwing on lug nuts or sewing in the garment factory or whatever. Once the AI does away with their pointless "job" they'll need to deal with the fact they're essentially clingers-on who won't be missed anymore than someone living in a mud hut as a hunter-gatherer hasn't been missed for centuries either.

So sorry folks, it's not society's job to create purpose for you by providing some pointless "dig a hole and fill it back in" job just so you can feel you have value. Go make yourself actually valuable by doing the hard work to be scientists, artists, innovators - your value will remain in the future AI world because your value isn't tied to someone else giving you a sense of value just because they pay you for some make work.

One little cosmic ray to your brain in just the right place and you may wind up far more worthless than the rest of us. Hope you don't die all alone or with the same level of care you have for others. Have you ever speculated on what might lie underneath your incredible arrogance? Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to call names out of anger. What I feel is profound pity. You have created in yourself what you fear, a person who is emotionally bankrupt to the point you wreak of worthlessness. You manifest exactly the opposite of what you think you express. Geez, man, get a grip.