Is RAID really useless?

slash196

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Nov 1, 2004
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It's an easy way to get a FREAKIN CRAPLOAD of storage...but as far as performance, there's not a great advantage.
 

ChrisIsBored

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Nov 30, 2000
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Why would you think RAID-1 would provide a performance increase? RAID is meant for redundancy, a safety precaution for maintaining your data, not as performance enhancing.
 

Stangs55

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Oct 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: dejunjing
Western Digital's Raptors in RAID-0: Are two drives better than one?

According to this article, RAID o is useless, and RAID 1 improve the performance only slightly. The most worthy point of RAID 1 is just provide a backup. Are these words reasonable?

BTW, I have a MAxtor UATA 133, do I need to buy a SATA HD to further boost performance?

Thanks.

There won't be a performace gain in gaming. However, if you do any photo/video editing....the gains are definatly there. Writing Gigs at a time is quite faster on RAID. :)
 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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RAID0 is not "useless" -- however, its only performance effect is to double STR when doing large reads and writes, and to allow multiple concurrent disk accesses if the blocks being accessed are on separate disks.

Doubling STR does very little for desktop computing -- most complex disk operations are constrained more by seek times than transfer rate. Unless you're loading and saving giant media files all the time, this won't help you much.

Most programs the average user is going to run are singlethreaded, and most singlethreaded programs (like games) do not try to do concurrent background reads and writes (plus, at least with a two-disk RAID0, half the operations will collide anyway). RAID0 (especially with four or more disks) might help if you are multitasking (for instance, running a virus scan in the background while copying files around, or something like that), but is unlikely to make games or single applications any faster.

RAID1 gives you data protection through mirroring, and doubles STR and lowers seek time for reads only. It's lowering the seek time for reads that makes 'normal' operations slightly faster.

So, yes -- basically, the average user will see little to no performance benefit from RAID0 or RAID1.

SATA by itself offers no performance advantage over regular ATA. Unless you're going to run 10KRPM 'Raptor' drives, or you have newer disks and controllers with TCQ/NCQ, it won't be any faster.
 

natto fire

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Jan 4, 2000
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RAID does not show it's benefits when used on a home computer because most home computer users don't use their RAID array the way it was supposed to be used. I highly doubt anyone would call some 15K SCSI drives in a RAID 5 array useless.. :p

And to answer your second question, SATA has not shown any performance improvements, YET. They do have little red cable which are so cool though. :laugh:
Heck even your ATA-133 interface bandwidth is going to waste, HDD are the bottleneck atm.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Originally posted by: Stangs55
Originally posted by: dejunjing
Western Digital's Raptors in RAID-0: Are two drives better than one?

According to this article, RAID o is useless, and RAID 1 improve the performance only slightly. The most worthy point of RAID 1 is just provide a backup. Are these words reasonable?

BTW, I have a MAxtor UATA 133, do I need to buy a SATA HD to further boost performance?

Thanks.

There won't be a performace gain in gaming. However, if you do any photo/video editing....the gains are definatly there. Writing Gigs at a time is quite faster on RAID. :)

Actually not quite true. For MY raid setup, it allows me to load the game and levels MUCH faster (but does not change gaming play speed to speak of), but for IDE and SATA raid for two drives, I agree, no noticable difference in most things.
 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: ChrisIsBored
Why would you think RAID-1 would provide a performance increase? RAID is meant for redundancy, a safety precaution for maintaining your data, not as performance enhancing.

RAID1 can offer significant performance benefits for read-heavy I/O loads with lots of small accesses (such as a web server). It lowers average seek time for reads (since any disks have access to all the data, any of them can service an individual I/O), and allows multiple concurrent read operations (one per disk in the array). It actually has *better* read performance than any other type of RAID. However, its primary benefit is redundancy, and for I/O loads with even a fairly small number of writes, RAID0 or RAID5 are faster overall.
 

uOpt

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Oct 19, 2004
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My 3-disk RAID-0 sections holding Doom3 make for pretty nice loading time. Not to speak of copying a 120 gig video file every now and then.

The RAID-5 sections on the same disks just saved my ass. I wouldn't post here thanks to Maxtor if I didn't have RAID-5. And the throughput out of the RAID-5 is actually higher than the single disks.

So I guess I don't agree it's useless :)

If you expect RAID-1 to be faster than a single disk then you need to go read some stuff.
 

Stangs55

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Oct 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Markfw900

Actually not quite true. For MY raid setup, it allows me to load the game and levels MUCH faster (but does not change gaming play speed to speak of), but for IDE and SATA raid for two drives, I agree, no noticable difference in most things.

Actually....I agree. I do see some difference in loading times w/my RAID rig as well. I was just saying that it's tiny compared to the time it takes loading a 4Gb Adobe Premiere project on RAID vs. non-RAID. That's where RAID shines.
 

FREEZrBURN

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Sep 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Markfw900
Originally posted by: Stangs55
Originally posted by: dejunjing
Western Digital's Raptors in RAID-0: Are two drives better than one?

According to this article, RAID o is useless, and RAID 1 improve the performance only slightly. The most worthy point of RAID 1 is just provide a backup. Are these words reasonable?

BTW, I have a MAxtor UATA 133, do I need to buy a SATA HD to further boost performance?

Thanks.

There won't be a performace gain in gaming. However, if you do any photo/video editing....the gains are definatly there. Writing Gigs at a time is quite faster on RAID. :)

Actually not quite true. For MY raid setup, it allows me to load the game and levels MUCH faster (but does not change gaming play speed to speak of), but for IDE and SATA raid for two drives, I agree, no noticable difference in most things.


Absolutley agree with you there. I have 2 200g WD, and notice a significant increase when loading game levels. Howevwer, like you said, no in-game performance boost.
 

Concillian

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May 26, 2004
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A LOT of people who use RAID just do it because it's what they heard they should do if they want the fastest computer.

Most of these people are not all that well informed, and do not include many of the people I've seen posting in this thread.

Another article that seems to indicate that RAID in a single user environment isn't very advantageous:
http://faq.storagereview.com/SingleDriveVsRaid0

Consider also that use of on-board RAID will SEVERELY limit the portability of your drives if, for example, your motherboard decides to take a dump and you need to migrate your data.
 

dejunjing

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Oct 21, 2004
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AnandTech is really a great community !!! So many guys replied my post, from which I learned lots of stuffs, even more from my advisor (I am still a graduate student ):laugh:

Also, No one answered my second question. Already having a Maxtor UATA133 250G HD, do I still need to buy SATA 150 only for the purpose of higher performance? I don't think thinner SATA cable is a important factor in making decision, even though I am doing OC and need good air pathway. Am I right?
 

PingSpike

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Feb 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: dejunjing
AnandTech is really a great community !!! So many guys replied my post, from which I learned lots of stuffs, even more from my advisor (I am still a graduate student ):laugh:

Also, No one answered my second question. Already having a Maxtor UATA133 250G HD, do I still need to buy SATA 150 only for the purpose of higher performance? I don't think thinner SATA cable is a important factor in making decision, even though I am doing OC and need good air pathway. Am I right?

They answered it I believe. ATA133 isn't even fully saturated yet. You can upgrade to SATA150 if you want buy it likely will not offer any signifigant performance increase. Just buy some round cables instead.
 

uOpt

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Oct 19, 2004
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Originally posted by: dejunjing
AnandTech is really a great community !!! So many guys replied my post, from which I learned lots of stuffs, even more from my advisor (I am still a graduate student ):laugh:

Also, No one answered my second question. Already having a Maxtor UATA133 250G HD, do I still need to buy SATA 150 only for the purpose of higher performance? I don't think thinner SATA cable is a important factor in making decision, even though I am doing OC and need good air pathway. Am I right?

I just put from disk array from SATA to PATA and unfortunately there's a performance drop when using the striped sections. That is although my new disks are faster (measured) than the old ones.

I can only conclude that my PATA channels are not as fully independent as my SATA channels are.

Thanks to the PATA channel not working on my onboard promise I had to use a PCI card with a PATA promise, though, so the whole thing is a little different.
 

jterrell

Senior member
Nov 18, 2004
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Originally posted by: dejunjing
AnandTech is really a great community !!! So many guys replied my post, from which I learned lots of stuffs, even more from my advisor (I am still a graduate student ):laugh:

Also, No one answered my second question. Already having a Maxtor UATA133 250G HD, do I still need to buy SATA 150 only for the purpose of higher performance? I don't think thinner SATA cable is a important factor in making decision, even though I am doing OC and need good air pathway. Am I right?

Only if you plan to buy two or more WD Raptors and run them in a SATA Raid.
And even then while they will own the rest of your pc will be the same box which means a very likely increase of just over zero in actual performance unless you happen to pirate DVDs. :)

That 250 gig drive should be good for another year or so minimum.

If you do get a new drive try and the get the higher buffers. 16 is pretty sweet.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
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i dunno, saw a third article somwhere claiming those two were flawed:p back when this was a hot issue
 

WobbleWobble

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Jun 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
i dunno, saw a third article somwhere claiming those two were flawed:p back when this was a hot issue

I saw that too but I can't find it. Personally, experiencing 2xRAID-0 on a couple machines I've found that map load time is faster. Just my 2 cents.
 
Nov 18, 2004
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Something else to think about it Native Command Queing and SATA2 (300 vs 150 on present drives), The NCQ will give SCSI like performance, ie, every try to do to many things on the PC at once, and it sometimes slows down to a crawl? NCQ will fix this, should be widely available by mid 2005.

The thing about RAID is if your mirroring for protection, it slows down the PC as it has to write the data twice, if your RAIDING as one drive (0?), it increases read times and write, which you'll only see if your working on video.audio, and programs will launch faster, but not increase in playability speeds.
 

racolvin

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Jul 26, 2004
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Originally posted by: Markfw900
...

Actually not quite true. For MY raid setup, it allows me to load the game and levels MUCH faster (but does not change gaming play speed to speak of), but for IDE and SATA raid for two drives, I agree, no noticable difference in most things.

Bingo for me as well. When reading all those zone files for EQ, WoW, and even Doom 3, gameplay feels a bit faster only because you're not waiting as long for the data with the next level to load. I use RAID 5 for that purpose, plus I like the storage and the data protection factor it gives me.

R
 

Smilin

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Mar 4, 2002
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Unfortunately I got a chance to test this exact scenario out in the real world.

I say unfortunately because I ordered a pair of raptors and one of them was DOA. I loaded up my OS anyway on a single drive and ran like that for about a week until I was ready to put the new part in and go raid 0. I recognized the opportunity at the time and ran some benchmarks.

Raw I/O was very close to the theoretical expectations. It was about 90% faster than a single drive. However, there are some things it simply makes no difference for. My load times for game levels has dropped since using raid 0 but you have to use a stopwatch to really tell the difference. I'm not a huge fan of synthetic benchmarks because most of the time I don't really give a crap about what they are measuring. An Office benchmark? JFC, who cares?? Every office app I have responds so fast that I wouldn't even notice if the performance tripled.

What I do notice with raid 0 is this: the computer "feels" faster. Applications pop up quicker when you launch them. Files load a bit faster and things like that. Think about it for a sec: Most of the time you aren't waiting on your cpu or memory. They operate at speeds that are too fast to notice. Framerate in a game is probably the only exception. No, what you really wait for is disk access. That's what you "feel" when using your computer most of the time.

I'll stick by my recommendation: Raid 0 is worth it. I'll be using it again on my next setup regardless of what any review says. If you want better performance you're going to have to go SCSI and it's just plain expensive. I think Raid 1 is a waste of money on a desktop. You should be relying on backups to protect your data, not raid. Raid is meant to protect your uptime, not your data and it's likely you're not running server apps on your desktop.

Some last notes on Raid 1: You shouldn't really see much of a performance increase. Write speed will be at best identical to a single drive. Read speed CAN be doubled if you are using a good SCSI raid controller but most people aren't. Also I've seen on MANY occasions where Raid 1 and Raid 5 systems did not gracefully fail. The loss of a single drive damaged the data on the remaining good drives to the point where the logical volume was completely lost. It seems to happen more in Raid 5 than Raid 1. Never rely on Raid to preserve your data. Backup, backup, backup.
 

Sysbuilder05

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Nov 10, 2004
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Raw I/O was very close to the theoretical expectations. It was about 90% faster than a single drive. However, there are some things it simply makes no difference for. My load times for game levels has dropped since using raid 0 but you have to use a stopwatch to really tell the difference. I'm not a huge fan of synthetic benchmarks because most of the time I don't really give a crap about what they are measuring. An Office benchmark? JFC, who cares?? Every office app I have responds so fast that I wouldn't even notice if the performance tripled.


Yup,kinda like the people who "claim" their Stereo sounds 100 times better with Monster cables. RAID has always been about redundency back up of files,and little to do with speed.

If the opening screen of FS2004 opens 2.175 seconds faster is it worth the cost? Your FPS will be the same with RAID or without it . No thanks, I'll put the money toward a faster CPU and the latest video card.
 

Smilin

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Mar 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: Smilin
Also I've seen on MANY occasions where Raid 1 and Raid 5 systems did not gracefully fail. The loss of a single drive damaged the data on the remaining good drives to the point where the logical volume was completely lost. It seems to happen more in Raid 5 than Raid 1. Never rely on Raid to preserve your data. Backup, backup, backup.

Forgive me quoting myself here. Just after I wrote the above I noticed this thread which pretty much sums it up:



http://forums.anandtech.com/me...5605&enterthread=y