Is Pirating okay?

[Doggiedog]

Thanatopsis, if Microsoft hadn't threatened to withhold new OSes or jacked up prices to their OEM CUSTOMERS then perhaps you may have a point. However, Microsoft has a very rigid policy regarding how their software is bundled and distributed. If you deviate from that policy you get put in the penalty box, doesn't matter how big the customer is ask IBM. I didn't get shafted by Gateway, I got shafted by Microsoft's illegal policies.

Fortunately I know a little something about PCs so I can build one, however, there are lots of reasons to buy PCs from OEMs. For example, the PC I am using now was one of the first 1Ghz PCs made by GTW. There was no way I could have made this computer at the time. I had Windows. Why shouldn't GTW allow me to buy a PC without an OS? Because Microsh!t has them by the balls.

<< Why can't I buy a new PC without an OS? >>

And just like your post said

Every OEM computer you buy will come bundled with an OS, usually Windows. If you build your own, you don't have to buy an OS. You can download Linux or BeOS.

You have to build one in order to get one without an OS nobody will sell you one without it. That seems unreasonable. To me it would be like buying any car in the world and being told you have to buy an extra set of Firestone Wilderness AT if you want it. If you don't want the tires you can't have the car.

The problem with MS Office is that it is such an establishment that you are forced to upgrade whenever Microsoft decides to change their software. Hey, I'm perfectly fine with Office 6.0 but if my company or client's company switches to 2000 then what choice do I have? I'm forced to buy the overpriced and dubious software. How can you honestly tell me that the software is worth the price they charge you? I never use their customer service and I as well as most other people never need to use 98% of the new functions in 2000 because they are worthless. If Microsoft wasn't a monopoly we'd probably have compatible versions of Lotus 1-2-3, Borland Quattro, Excel, etc., just like Netscape and IE work the same way with information that comes over the web, and it would cost $50 which is reasonable.

When you say Microsoft provides updates to their software you make them seem so altruistic. I'll let you in on another secret...lots of software and hardware companies provide patches with additional functionality free. For the $100+ I probably paid for my Win98FE and $250+ for MS Office I should expect it. Hell, I paid $19 for Unreal Tournament and they continue to regularly release new service packs and bonus maps. As for ICS and all the other useless bloatware junk like NetMeeting (which by the way was freely licensed to MSFT by White Pine Software) Microsoft gives you, it isn't because they want to make you happy. They're just doing it to continue to maintain their monopoly by trying to run competitors with innovative products out of business so they can have the segment to themselves (ie. Netscape, Real Networks, Doublespace, etc.)

Hey, I think programmers and companies should get their due for their hard work. I bought all the programs on my computer (except for this retail version of Win98SE because I can't install my OEM version which I paid for when I bought the PC sans MB). I think the market should also be allowed to dictate what the value of the software is. Windows and Office do not follow this order because Microsoft has a monopoly on those markets. Explain to me why Windows 98 never declined in price during the time it was sold? You would think software that is 2-3 years old would be pretty cheap if it wasn't from Microsoft. That is why I have no qualms about getting something back from Microsoft.

Edit: For typos

 

[Raspewtin]

<< Only if its MS software LOL >>



I second that

 

[flabbergasted]

Valhalla 1 stated:
because if you steal a $250,000 car, they are out of $250,000 because they lost the car. But if you were to go and take lots of pictures of it and not buy it, but go home and make a copy of it, thats more like what I'm saying. I'm not saying its okay to steal a boxed copy off the shelf, because then they are losing money.

That's a very close argument to the one my friend gave. So, it's okay for you to take someone elses idea of what that Rolls Royce should be? Aren't you basically stealing that person's concept of that car?

 

[Zucchini]

The arguement for piracy is the same as the one for shoplifting. Its just that it is easier to get caught shoplifting

hehe do it because you won't get caught.. nice ethics.

 

[Czar]

If you are using a pirated profesional application for making money from using it then that is stealing, if its just for your own entertainement value at home then it is not stealing. If you are using a priated entertainment application at home then that is stealing.

 

Stealing material property and copying software are two different things in reality.
By law they are not.
I go out and steal a car, that dealership is physically out 1 car. Which is whatever they paid for it.
Comes directly out of their pockets.

Now, I go and dload a .iso, burn it and use the software. Even crack it.
Now, who's pocket did that come from? I never left my house or physically touched anyone elses items. No retail or online stores stock decreased by 1, or 10.
The argument of, well there is a loss of a potential sale. Most of the things ive used or tried out I would never consider buying. Just not worth the money. Most people who dload full softwares know what they are doing and what they want. If its a true business application or want the full effect of a game, then you purchase it to get all the benefits.
But software would be just like VHS. How many of you have movies that are not retail?
Music, for cds I can see both sides, yea bands may lose sales. Not near as much as they rake in from the completely computer illiterate community (majority of america).
But on the otherhand, if I only like one song from a cd, its really honestly not worth 10bucks for one choon, no matter what anyone says.
And in my case, I havnt bought a cd in years, most of my music is live dj sets. Retail and commercial music is obsolete to me.
So why should mp3s and such be locked down, and i suffer from it?
I grew up trading files and information back and forth, its hard to see the govt and law take hold of what little universe I had.

 

[madthumbs]

If it is intangible property, then they should sell it as such (not on a cd in a huge carboard box in a retail store). Also, most software could sell for less since before we even start to get our money's worth out of most software it is updated and the price on what we bought has dropped. Another unfair practice is to bundle &quot;free&quot; software with hardware. Who the hell wants to pay a game company when they spend $60 on a game and then upgrade a video card and get the game included for free, the result is that the games value goes down, making it hard to resell. I could go on about price controlling, buggy software, overpriced software, etc. Musicians make most of their money on merchandise and concerts. CD prices could be more competetive (Look at how you can get CD's for under $3 a piece from BMG). When we stop having to grossly overpay is when we should stop pirating.

 

[damocles]

Generally (amd i know this isn't ideal) i will d/l the software i want. If it stays on my PC more than 2 weeks, i buy it. It is scary how many programs don't even last 10 minutes.

 

[EmperorNero]

piracy is wrong, but it can be justified. how? it depends on each person..one may not see any justifications at all, but another might. so it's rather pointless to argue: I'm sure most people here would pay for the softwares they like but they can't afford them...so at least one party should benefit especially when the other isn't getting hurt. then you guys ask how are they not getting hurt? well..like valhalla said, a person cannot pay for a program either way so it's not like the company is losing money, potential or physical. then that analogy for stealing a car is rediculous: stealing an intellectual idea for one own use vs stealing a physical object that actually costs money to make - those two objects cannot be compared in the same light.

basically, my point is that I pirate, but I need certain programs that I simply just can't pay for. but I have bought programs in the past when I had the money to pay for it (UT, AOE2, Norton systemworks 2000, etc). so if they're affordable enough, people here would buy them. but they are not and software companies are party to be blamed (consumers as well).

FYI, there's a new MS piracy protection that generates a key from different hardwares. if you upgrade certain components, you can't use it. if you bought a legitimate copy and want to install it on two computers at your house, you can't. the copy protection will come with whistle - there's a good cnet article on it. and while consumers are at fault for pirating, software makers aren't free from any wrongdoing either since they're screwing consumers up the ass.

 

[poop]

But... that copy protection is not to be found on OEM products. Which means you can always scour eb*y or get a copy with a new mobo.

 

[Shack70]

ok my feeling on the subject is that is you get an illegal copy of software, no matter if it is a game, an app,or an OS, and you plan on keeping it because it is a benifit or you enjoy it, you should pay for it. If you get a copy of a new game and it rocks and you love it, buy it! Pirating is a gret way to try before you buy! As for ppl copying stuff like photoshop, you have to ask, do they really need it? I doubt that an average use really needs to use an app like Photoshop. There are cheaper apps that will prob do what they want.

 

[DefRef]

Why can't I buy a new PC without an OS?

You can. If you build it from scratch.

Nobody holds a gun to your head and says, &quot;Buy this upgrade.&quot;

Actually, yes they do because if the rest of the world is using a later and incompatible with your version of whatever app, you're hosed. My company was running Office 95 until late-'99. Even though we had viewers for the Office 97 docs, they were iffy and didn't do much for us when we started getting Office2K documents. We finally had to bite the bullet and upgrade the entire place to O2K.

Let's hear it for WordPerfect, who hasn't changed their file formats since version 6 (and they're up the v.10!) Unfortunately, they've read the writing on the wall and can now write Office formats as the default.

(Look at how you can get CD's for under $3 a piece from BMG).

The low prices that record clubs offer are made up out of the ARTIST'S royalties. Typically, they get paid HALF as much for record club sales and NOTHING for the free (12 for a penny) deals. That's why you don't see big stars in the free ads and they're stuff doesn't become Selection of the Month until it's cooled off at retail. As usual, the labels get rich, the artists get screwed.

I doubt that an average use really needs to use an app like Photoshop

EVERY camera, printer and cereal box comes with something like PhotoDeluxe bundled in which is just fine. It's the &quot;l33t w4r3z m0nk33z&quot; that feel the need for a pro-level tool.

Check out this ZDNet Editorial, Dear Steve, Don't Stop Me From Copying my MS Office. It discusses the Whistler and Office 10 anti-piracy/profit maximizing/customer alienating plans of M$.

 

[Doggiedog]

Why can't I buy a new PC without an OS?

You can. If you build it from scratch.

Building it from scratch is not the same as buying a complete product. You cannot buy a complete product from any of the large OEMs without being forced to buy an operating system with it. If OEMs give you options like leaving out the monitor or getting a bigger HDD or leaving out the video card, why isn't there an option to leave out the OS?

 

[Thorn]

Pirating SW isn't theft, it's fraud. You're violating the License Agreement by installing the &quot;illicit&quot; SW on your PC... almost all SW LAs have a clause in them that you have to agree to at the time of installation. That clause states that you must be the original purchaser of the SW.

So, whether or not you feel that ripping SW is bad, you are lying on the LA which does constitute a crime.

 

[Stark]

Arrrg, matey!

Pirtating be bad only if ye loses ye hand to a crocodile and ye must then wear a hook!

Shiver me timbers!

 

[DefRef]

DoggieDog: How many people WANT a PC w/o an OS? Even if an OEM could offer a OS-free system, what is the end user going to install on it? The OS from their old PC? If so, what's the old box running? The same OS? See the problem with licensing?

Also, OEM can't allow users to buy OS-free boxes because how are they supposed to support and warranty their goods? When people have place a non-Windows OS on, how many Help Desks are the supposed to staff? (&quot;If you are running Windows 95 or 98 or ME, press 1; If you are running Windows NT, press 2; If you are running Windows 2000, press 3; If you are running Linux, press 4; If you are running BeOS, press 5; If you are running UNIX, press 6; If you are running an OS your friend who never sleeps wrote while tweaking on crystal meth, press 7; If...&quot

M$ has been leaning on OEMs to NOT supply Windoze CDs because they are getting separated and showing up on the grey market. That's why there are so many &quot;Restore Discs&quot; around. Another gouge is charging OEMs (and thus the end customer) for the OS installed and charging AGAIN for the OS included in a corporate image. I obtained my Win98SE from the trash, because our company's PCs are imaged with a Global Client from the maker (Dell) and any reinstalls are done thru the network. I also cribbed NT4 that way. I have the COAs and as far as they know, it's legit. In fact, they got paid (twice!) and I was spared shelling out again. Is that wrong? Probably. But it's not w4r3z1n6.

 

[vi edit]

DefRef - same here, it's crazy what some corporate offices do. I scored SEVERAL copies of Win95 and NT from a company that manufactures green and yellow tractors

The IT staff would bring in a box of those OEM bundles from gateway/dell, ask us to shred the cd-key and then snap the cd itself in half and trash it.

We're talking hundreds of OEM bundles. Needless to say, not all of those cd's and keys made it to the trash

 

[GoldenGuppy]

Damn you guys and your no fear morality...

 

[skywhr]

pirating is illegal and wrong, will that stop people from doing it....no

 

[Nevyn522]

To begin with:

I'm a college student with a persistent desire to try out the next best thing... and no money to buy it with. So yes, I have pirated some software, ranging from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 on up to Windows 2000... and then the slew of &quot;typical&quot; programs that are pirated... 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, I can't remember whatever else.

For the most part, I might toy with something I pirated for a day or so... AND THEN I LOSE INTEREST. I own my own copy of the games that really interest me, 'cause I want to own them. By and large it's a Try and delete thing -- much the same as going to a friend's house, playing it on his computer, and then leaving.

But some of the arguments presented above are completely ludicrous. For instance, someone claimed above that a game is harder to program than a word processor. Well, if you're writing the next version of Notepad, maybe. But think about all the interlocking elements that have to be in place. Formatting options, storing the document both in memory and on the hard drive, providing spell checking interfaces, OLE capabilities, etc., etc. If you look at Word 2000, it's substantially different than Word 95 -- even the interface is different. Admittedly, if you strip all the additional functionality from it, it's pretty much Notepad with a couple of extra features, but if you do the same to a game you're going to come down to something like Hide and Go Seek for the friendless. And the complaint regarding forcing upgrades by changing file formats -- it's the users who demand NEW and BETTER features, they're just trying to accomodate you.

Part of the reason why MS has to charge so much for their software is the massive amounts of piracy that goes on. They're a BIG company, and COMPANIES make MONEY. They can estimate how many copies they'll sell, and then they know what price the market can support, and they do their best. They know college students can't afford the software, so it's academic discounts for college students. They're not doing it to shaft you... Admittedly, their prices can be a bit high -- but people will pay for it, because in general they're considered the best. That's business, not Microsoft-specific.

I'm no fan of the Evil Empire -- my favorite shirt has &quot;In a World Without Fences, Who Needs Gates?&quot; on the back (Linux Journal), however, I am completely willing to admit that they do a damn good job. Their operating systems provide a standard platform, and as a programmer, their development support is top notch. Yes, you can get free development tools for Linux or any number of other operating systems, but the SDKs, tools, documentation, and examples they provide are top notch.

If you want to discuss the merits of piracy, go ahead. Yes, it is illegal, and yes, it does hurt the programmers.

But if you want to bash Microsoft, at least be legitimate about it. Saying MS has been using the same code for years is simply stupid -- that wouldn't be tolerated at all by any self-respecting business. Bash their pricing schemes if you like, and I admit they tend to be a bit high, but at least give them some professional consideration -- they're a business, and they tend to put out pretty high quality work for the wide range of computers they need to work on.

Andrew

 

[narzy]

as a developer I say it is NOT ok, infact its blatently illeagl please pay for your software.

 

[loosbrew]

yeah its theft but i dont care. 600 bux for photoshop is waaaayyyyy too much. nowif i needed photoshop for professianl use then i would defintely use a legit copy but if im just messing with it and not trying to make money off of it theres no harm done. plus im not too worried about MS andAdobe and thier funds...they make plenty of cash from business and universities, they seem to chareg them more anyways! i say if its there for the downloadin then feel free to mess with it, cause theres no way in hell that someones gonna dish out 3 grand for a copy of lightwave just to practice 3d in, unless theyre making money off of it.

loosbrew

 

[jjm]

Pirating is illegal; a clear-cut matter of fact.

I would also submit that it is morally challenged. Our society requires people to earn a living based on the ability to get paid for their output. (Note that this does not address whether or not people get paid fairly for the output produced. That's another discussion.) Taking someone else's work and using it for your own purposes, no matter how brief and regardless of whether or not you would consider buying it, is stealing.

If you want to &quot;test&quot; software, get a demo, try a full version on the machine of someone who owns it, or buy it only from a publisher or vendor that offers a satisfaction guarantee. For larger buyers, publishers typically offer full versions of their software for testing at little or no charge.

Attempts to justify pirating based on how &quot;good&quot; or &quot;evil&quot; a company might be are hogwash. That kind of thinking just gives some people an excuse to try to justify doing something illegal and morally wrong.

 

[Doggiedog]

DefRef, I agree with you regarding the support of PCs and Windows. However, if you've ever dealt with Gateway tech support they'll tell you they only deal with hardware issues. When I bought my 1Ghz Athlon PC in March, my PC was locked in 640x400 mode and I couldn't get it out of it. I called up their tech support and they say its an OS issue so go to the Microsoft site and help yourself out. That was total BS because I have never spoken to a MSFT tech in my life. Do they exist for consumer users? Anyway, I finally figured out what was wrong and it was a simple 5 second fix but they nevered offered any advice. Is Gateway tech support typical? I don't know. I just go by my own experiences.

As for my old PCs, my old P-90 is running Win95 in my parent's home and I blew out the MB on my P2 233 with the original copy of Win98SE so why can't I save a little money for myself and get a 1 Ghz PC (not build) without the OS? Is that unreasonable? It's not like I have 6 PCs in my home from the ages all running Win98. I never sold them they usually ended up being junked for part and whatnot. People tend to get new computers because their old ones get obsolete. But if there is something salvageable on the PC be it the HDD, Vid card or OS why shouldn't I be allowed to use it without having to buy it again? I was upset when I got my new KA-7 MB for my Athlon and realized I couldn't install Win98Se on it. I paid for the OS when I bought the original PC didn't I? So I don't know how you would categorize my situation. Did I pirate it because I used a copy of Win98Se with a the serial code that didn't come from my original PC or am I absolved by the fact that I have a legitimate copy of Win98SE that isn't running on any computer?

I can understand Microsoft's worry about supply OEM discs to their customers but what about all the people who legitimately use their products? Do they get hosed too? I don't think they should. I thought in this country it was innocent until proven guilty. It seems like Microsoft is assuming everyone is guilty and proactively taking steps to make sure the innocent get screwed too.

 

[Recneps]

Copying software made by a company that isn't a monply is wroung but copying anything Microsoft makes if great. They are breaking the law why should they be allowed to use the copyright law to protect themselves? OS would not cost 180 dollars to buy retail if it wasn't form microsoft illegal monoply. There is no program that is competting with Win9x or Office, the only compition there is for the product is pirating. Microsoft should not be given the same rights as company the follow the laws they should be treated the same way as the Mob is.