Is our space policy a "train wreck"

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Dec 26, 2007
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One of the things that I ran across a while ago talking about NASA, was that we are losing people who have actually done that. Sure the current engineers know the technical aspects behind it, and can plot the calculations to get to the moon or where ever else they want to go. They don't have any experience in getting a manned mission outside of LEO. That is perhaps one of the largest losses to come from the lack of a continuation from the Apollo program.

If we had used Apollo as the groundwork to build upon to either setup a manned lunar base or manned mission to Mars, it wouldn't have taken that much more work from that point.

Also, to those who say that our gravity well is too strong, you may want to read up on that. While it might not be economical with current tech to send a manned mission to Mars or permanent lunar base, that doesn't mean it couldn't be done. It would just take a rather large amount of resources, money, and time to ramp up to that point.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
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This is one of the main problems. Most people think short term. What will it get us now? If we keep waiting until the problems on earth are solved, we will never get off this planet.

Precisely the reason that I think at this current moment, we are better off placing our space dreams in the hands of corporations.

As the science is developed in tandem with NASA (the actual science/research portion is cheaper than the actual product/execution portion, when it comes to space), the corporations may get a sense of how much money can be made under the idea of space tourism and habitation.

Let governments come to the rescue once these ideas actually result in large numbers of humans in space, but only then.

Governments, as a general rule, lack foresight. They are severely shortsighted, so much to a point that as I stated earlier, future problems are simply left for future generations. Oh sure, a few ideas of future well-being are put into play now, but only at much lower cost, and generally, these ideas still ultimately fail where the future is concerned. The actions of government that concern the future are terribly limited in scope, and don't consider nearly enough variables - it is to the point that any future-oriented project that actually succeeds does so entirely due to luck and nothing else. Governments are terrible at planning for long-term future, mainly because nobody cares about the real long-term. I'm not talking the ability to plan for 10, 20, maybe even 50 years. That is shortsighted thinking to limit planning to such a short span of time. There are serious issues future generations will have to face, and their lives could be made much easier if we as a whole decided to face the burden of some decisions today.
But it's two-faced problem: we, as in both the majority of the populace on Earth and governing bodies, are seriously lacking in foresight; we also have the problem of entitlement, thinking we need only to take on the weight of current-day issues, that we don't need to concern ourselves with the future if that means our way of life will require sacrifices.
Tackling problems using a multi-generation approach is what we need to do, but I zero faith in our civilization to actually not only accept this but have the balls to take on such a burden.

Governing bodies will not see the idea as something that will produce a return of investment for them any time soon, and thus declare it nothing but wasted expenditure that could be put to use elsewhere.
The only way governments will take on that cost is if survival is on the line in the immediate future. Note, it doesn't necessarily have to be human survival, although that risk would certainly produce far better results; the survival of power at the State level, as in State v. State competition, can also produce positive results in the scientific industry. Just look at the Cold War, of which our place in it may ultimately be the only reason we have certain technologies/advancements at this point in time.

The cooperation between government-sponsored scientific communities and profit-minded corporate entities may be exactly what we need right now. It may bring about technological and scientific advancements at a faster rate than if it were left entirely to government funding.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,688
15,935
146
Intersting article on slate about how we got here with our rocket technology : Space Stasis

On board the ISS we are currently doing combustion research in addition to the standard effects of long duration space flight on astronauts. Next week we install a furnace for conducting material science investigations.

Later this year we'll be installing the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer for high energy astronomy. And sometime in the next couple of years we'll be putting up a "plasma drive" called VASIMR, (Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket)

VASIMR with an appropriately sized nuclear reactor could take you to Mars in about a month.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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Precisely the reason that I think at this current moment, we are better off placing our space dreams in the hands of corporations.

As the science is developed in tandem with NASA (the actual science/research portion is cheaper than the actual product/execution portion, when it comes to space), the corporations may get a sense of how much money can be made under the idea of space tourism and habitation.

Let governments come to the rescue once these ideas actually result in large numbers of humans in space, but only then.

Governments, as a general rule, lack foresight. They are severely shortsighted, so much to a point that as I stated earlier, future problems are simply left for future generations. Oh sure, a few ideas of future well-being are put into play now, but only at much lower cost, and generally, these ideas still ultimately fail where the future is concerned. The actions of government that concern the future are terribly limited in scope, and don't consider nearly enough variables - it is to the point that any future-oriented project that actually succeeds does so entirely due to luck and nothing else. Governments are terrible at planning for long-term future, mainly because nobody cares about the real long-term. I'm not talking the ability to plan for 10, 20, maybe even 50 years. That is shortsighted thinking to limit planning to such a short span of time. There are serious issues future generations will have to face, and their lives could be made much easier if we as a whole decided to face the burden of some decisions today.
But it's two-faced problem: we, as in both the majority of the populace on Earth and governing bodies, are seriously lacking in foresight; we also have the problem of entitlement, thinking we need only to take on the weight of current-day issues, that we don't need to concern ourselves with the future if that means our way of life will require sacrifices.
Tackling problems using a multi-generation approach is what we need to do, but I zero faith in our civilization to actually not only accept this but have the balls to take on such a burden.

Governing bodies will not see the idea as something that will produce a return of investment for them any time soon, and thus declare it nothing but wasted expenditure that could be put to use elsewhere.
The only way governments will take on that cost is if survival is on the line in the immediate future. Note, it doesn't necessarily have to be human survival, although that risk would certainly produce far better results; the survival of power at the State level, as in State v. State competition, can also produce positive results in the scientific industry. Just look at the Cold War, of which our place in it may ultimately be the only reason we have certain technologies/advancements at this point in time.

The cooperation between government-sponsored scientific communities and profit-minded corporate entities may be exactly what we need right now. It may bring about technological and scientific advancements at a faster rate than if it were left entirely to government funding.

If you replace government with corporations, you might be closer to the mark. Your last paragraph is the sole redeeming point of your post.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
why focus on our aging infrastructure and nearly 3rd world mass transit systems when we can spend frivolously on pipe dream space projects with no ROI in sight?
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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why focus on our aging infrastructure and nearly 3rd world mass transit systems when we can spend frivolously on pipe dream space projects with no ROI in sight?

Because doing so will enable scientific break throughs which is the only thing that will save our sorry butts.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
Because doing so will enable scientific break throughs which is the only thing that will save our sorry butts.

I know you have boner for nasa but really you talk about it like its the only way a scientific "break thru" is going to happen...get real. I hear about way more break through coming from the academic and private sector than NASA.
 

TheTony

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2005
1,418
1
0
Such as?? As far as the spin-offs,
1. they work under the assumption that no one would have attempted to create certain products. i.e. scratch resistant coatings.
2. I'm just going to speculate here, but I'd guess that the bang for the buck is pretty low, particularly when you're looking at manned missions. But, for unmanned missions, well, it's quite possible that they get pretty good bang for the buck.

Advances fueled by the need for solutions to NASA's technical problems has led to R&D that has either directly or indirectly created or supported the creation of hundreds of devices and technologies. Doppler radar, CCD devices, plasma welding torches, cordless power tools, medical devices like pacemakers, ocular scanners, medical imaging, water purification systems, just to name a few. Would the devices have been created without NASA's existence? It's very possible. However, without the demand they created, it's unlikely the same amount of money or effort would have been spent on R&D by them or companies vying for their contracts. In many cases, I doubt you'd have seen the resulting applied science develop the way it did, were they not to exist.

Bang for the buck is a good question, but you really have to seperate the two goals of space flight at the current moment. One is exploration of the solar system, galaxy and universe, which I've said nothing about. The other is the vast amount of science that can be done and knowledge gained by work done in space. Just to take one example, there is currently work being done on the ISS that can only be done easily in space that will lead to new knowledge and hopefully prevention for conditions such as osteoperosis. Which leads me back to the value proposition - these manned experiments do have value, and the cost is low (in relative terms as well as compared to the revenue it generates for the government and companies who financially benefit). Most conervative estimates put the money spent to revenue generated at a 1:7 ratio.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Clearly. Of course. You are so right. I beg of you your excellency, please don't expose my ignorance upon the masses when I have them so fooled.

Clearly I have no idea what GDP is because I had oh so much time to write an article on economics given that it was the main topic in this thread.

Clearly you've began a plot against the president because you never mentioned you didn't. Traitor. You should be brought up on charges.

Yes I am well aware of the changeover from using GNP to GDP by politicians because of growing national debt.

And they love Raygun so much. ;-)

You should see a doctor, because you clearly have brain damage.

At least you live up to your name.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,782
2
76
Intersting article on slate about how we got here with our rocket technology : Space Stasis

On board the ISS we are currently doing combustion research in addition to the standard effects of long duration space flight on astronauts. Next week we install a furnace for conducting material science investigations.

Later this year we'll be installing the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer for high energy astronomy. And sometime in the next couple of years we'll be putting up a "plasma drive" called VASIMR, (Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket)

VASIMR with an appropriately sized nuclear reactor could take you to Mars in about a month.

VASIMR might not be the "answer" to getting to Mars quickly:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1690/1
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
I know you have boner for nasa but really you talk about it like its the only way a scientific "break thru" is going to happen...get real. I hear about way more break through coming from the academic and private sector than NASA.

I do believe in the dream of NASA because, I grew up in the era of 'the right stuff.' Of course breakthroughs can happen in the academic and private sector, I just believe the focus of NASA on exploration will pay off faster than Monsanto working on being the only seed company in the world.

There is a place for government run research and exploration that academia and industry are unlikely to pursue because of unlikely immediate returns. Make no mistake, academia is in the business of acquiring research monies and industry looks no further ahead than their next stockholder meeting.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
What's stopping Obama from doing what Kennedy did in the 60s? By targeting Mars or the Moon and putting the Country's resources into doing that, we'll get there.