Why the hell would people want to settle on Mars? Demon spawns are waiting for us up there! According to the Doom universe that is.
CZroe
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2001
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No. Those are on the two moons. Even then, they are actually in Hell as long as we don't do anything stupid, like try to open a portal between the two moons or something.
njdevilsfan87
Platinum Member
- Apr 19, 2007
- 2,342
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I've wondered how different our race would be if Venus and/or Mars had very similar conditions to Earth. I assume we would have colonized the neighboring planet by now, and been much more space oriented. The other position is the conditions of the home planet. Because the conditions of Earth are so perfect, there's little desire to leave. But if we had something in between say the current Earth and Mars, we'd maybe be a little bit more interested in leaving (or maybe not as we'd be evolved to those conditions).
I'm guessing having a habitable neighbor nearby has a huge impact on how quickly, or even whether or not a species can conquer space. We don't have that habitable neighbor (Mars is not habitable without a significant amount of work). We do at least the moon though, which is probably the only reason we're even going to have a chance at it. Without it we would never ventured out, and it also provides as a potential significant cost reducing launchpad in the future. And Mars will be doable with its water locked up under its surface.
It's probably good for the sake of other civilizations that we don't have a true Earth-like neighbor. If we did, we'd remain reckless in resource consumption while obtaining the ability to travel space. Or if another species evolved on the neighbor, I'm sure there would be planetary wars and the victor would claim both. We'd certainly turn into an evil type of alien species that is only out to conquer and take other planets. But because we don't have another Earth right next door, we need to figure other things out. :thumbsup:
I'm guessing having a habitable neighbor nearby has a huge impact on how quickly, or even whether or not a species can conquer space. We don't have that habitable neighbor (Mars is not habitable without a significant amount of work). We do at least the moon though, which is probably the only reason we're even going to have a chance at it. Without it we would never ventured out, and it also provides as a potential significant cost reducing launchpad in the future. And Mars will be doable with its water locked up under its surface.
It's probably good for the sake of other civilizations that we don't have a true Earth-like neighbor. If we did, we'd remain reckless in resource consumption while obtaining the ability to travel space. Or if another species evolved on the neighbor, I'm sure there would be planetary wars and the victor would claim both. We'd certainly turn into an evil type of alien species that is only out to conquer and take other planets. But because we don't have another Earth right next door, we need to figure other things out. :thumbsup:
Unfortunately no. I think the furthest we get is colonies on Mars. But those colonies are still going to be dependent on Earth. If Earth goes than so will everything else that we have setup in the solar system. I hope I am wrong.
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ImpulsE69
Lifer
- Jan 8, 2010
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That will only happen if someone finds something of value there...or god hiding under a rock.
I suppose if we did manage to colonize Mars, then our next logical stop might be Europa? I'm still a bit uncertain if the things they are saying about Europa are just wishful thinking.
I agree about the Voyager probes. Simply amazing that they are still out there and still sending data back.
moonbogg
Lifer
- Jan 8, 2011
- 10,731
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Its easy to see it happen. At first, mars colonies will be like precious little babies and everyone will care for them and help them succeed for the sake of progress. But later, like much later after mars is now boring and things become business as usual, conflicts of interest will arise, and they will spiral out of control. Then, eventually, conflict will come.
When a person is new, learning, and weak, someone stronger is unlikely to attack them, especially if they helped them to learn and grow. But eventually they will grow up and become a competing force. That would be sad, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. Interplanetary politics is guaranteed at some point.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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Actually the moon gig will never happen....
http://alien-ufo-research.com/alien_moon_bases/
It isn't well known that the Governments have been covering up the fact the aliens have bases on the moon. There are many facts, Pictures, videos, satellite images, and testimonies that create hard evidence of this fact. From well known respected scientists, Astronauts, and military personal we gain a pretty define perspective on this subject.
Secret Alien Moon Base
First we have this video here which is part of the disclosure project that starts off with a women talking to Military personnel about an image from space that has an Unidentified Flying object in it. She asks, "is that a UFO" and he answered, "I'm not allowed to tell you that". Now we know that he could have even said yes because a UFO doesn't stand for some alien ship it simply means an Unidentified Flying object. But he instead says it's privileged information. When she asks what he`s going to do with this extraordinary information he replies, "it's procedure to air brush these images out before we release them to the public".
Next we have a man sergeant Karl Wolfe in the video, that was brought to Langley air force base where the NSA (National Security Agency) was bringing in information and pictures from the lunar orbiter. At that point one of the Officers said that they had found a base on the back side of the moon. Afterwords sergeant Karl Wolfe was shown images of the base from large towers to spherical domes over half a mile in diameter on a section of the dark side of the moon. He immediately stopped looking at the moon base pictures fearing for his safety. These are real Military personnel not just people off the street. They came forward knowing that they and their family's would be at risk just so they could reveal to the public the truth about UFOs and alien moon bases.
http://alien-ufo-research.com/alien_moon_bases/
It isn't well known that the Governments have been covering up the fact the aliens have bases on the moon. There are many facts, Pictures, videos, satellite images, and testimonies that create hard evidence of this fact. From well known respected scientists, Astronauts, and military personal we gain a pretty define perspective on this subject.
Secret Alien Moon Base
First we have this video here which is part of the disclosure project that starts off with a women talking to Military personnel about an image from space that has an Unidentified Flying object in it. She asks, "is that a UFO" and he answered, "I'm not allowed to tell you that". Now we know that he could have even said yes because a UFO doesn't stand for some alien ship it simply means an Unidentified Flying object. But he instead says it's privileged information. When she asks what he`s going to do with this extraordinary information he replies, "it's procedure to air brush these images out before we release them to the public".
Next we have a man sergeant Karl Wolfe in the video, that was brought to Langley air force base where the NSA (National Security Agency) was bringing in information and pictures from the lunar orbiter. At that point one of the Officers said that they had found a base on the back side of the moon. Afterwords sergeant Karl Wolfe was shown images of the base from large towers to spherical domes over half a mile in diameter on a section of the dark side of the moon. He immediately stopped looking at the moon base pictures fearing for his safety. These are real Military personnel not just people off the street. They came forward knowing that they and their family's would be at risk just so they could reveal to the public the truth about UFOs and alien moon bases.
Lots of smart sci fi authors have thought about this, consensus is that a moon base is key to lots of other off Earth options. The moon has ice, is totally stable with no moon quakes, no atmosphere so efficient means can be used for surface launching, and its full of raw materials.
Once you have the moon base you can create much of the support items, metals and food for everything else.
OTOH it seems unlikely anybody would be making round trips other than emergencies due to the cost transport and effects of low gravity.
Go / no go, is purely a question of political use of money.
Once you have the moon base you can create much of the support items, metals and food for everything else.
OTOH it seems unlikely anybody would be making round trips other than emergencies due to the cost transport and effects of low gravity.
Go / no go, is purely a question of political use of money.
- Oct 28, 1999
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Wonder how much "stuff" you can remove from the moon before it starts eff'ing with Earth given the various impacts it has on us.
moonbogg
Lifer
- Jan 8, 2011
- 10,731
- 3,440
- 136
I can do you one better...
Year: 3240
Location: Earth/Mars Rendezvous Outpost A
The leader of the FPC (Free Planetary Coalition) boards his craft and embarks on a risky recon mission, with the public watching him, in an attempt to locate elements of a Mars rebellion sabotage team. The public understands his background and realizes that he still loves doing high risk missions, despite being the most valued member and leader of the FPC. They worry for his safety.
25 minutes into the mission, an unidentified craft intercepts and surprises the FPC leader, totally catching him off guard. His heart skips a beat, especially realizing that he did not transfer this thought patters for the entire previous month to the data center, so should anything happen to him, there is critical information stored in his brain that will be lost, putting many critical missions at extreme risk.
The unidentified craft makes themselves known to the FPC leader. Is it a Rebel ship? Perhaps an extra solar adversary? No. Its his old war buddy! He is relieved to see that its his friend, and according to his brazen character, he's right on time and arrived in perfect fashion. He expresses concern that NEITHER of them had taken the time to complete their pattern uploads, but they both laugh it off and venture out to complete the mission together, just like old times.
The anxious public cheers them both on. Its an exciting time to be a citizen of the FPC with such an exciting leader.
That leader's name....is MOONBOGG.
CZroe
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2001
- 24,195
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The Boston Dangler
Lifer
- Mar 10, 2005
- 14,647
- 2
- 0
Grooveriding
Diamond Member
- Dec 25, 2008
- 9,147
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I think the most likely reality here is we will have wiped ourselves out either via a nuclear war or the continued destruction of the Earth's environment before we ever manage a venture like terra-forming and inhabiting another planet.
Paratus
Lifer
- Jun 4, 2004
- 17,627
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At your service!
Interesting question too.
Assumptions:
T = 200 year trip
D = 10 light years
M = 450,000kg (mass of the ISS)
Constant acceleration. Accelerate for 100 years and 5 LY. Decelerate for 100 years and 5 LY
Ignore gravity and relative velocities of the solar system and the target system.
5LY = .5(A)(T^2)
Acceleration A = 0.009513 meters per second squared
Velocity @ halfway point V = AT
V= 30 million meters per second or .1c
Kinetic Energy of the vehicle Ke = .5(M)(V^2)
Ke=2.025×10^20 joules or .48 the energy consumed by the world in 2001
Total Energy for the trip is doubled due to braking or about equal to the energy consumed by the world in 2001
Constant power P required to meet that energy demand
P =2Ke/T
P =64.21 gigawatts
That's a lot of power. It's about 1/6 of all nuclear power generated currently or .028 the worlds consumption of power.
(Thanks Wolfram Alpha. That site is amazing)
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The Boston Dangler
Lifer
- Mar 10, 2005
- 14,647
- 2
- 0
is there any significant time dilation taking place at .1c, and does it matter to the colonists?
total energy = total energy x2? awkward!
MongGrel
Lifer
- Dec 3, 2013
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Paratus
Lifer
- Jun 4, 2004
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Let's find out.
The time dilation of something moving relativistically is
T = t0 / sqrt(1-v2/c2)
So for 200 years at .1c (which our ship would only peak at before slowing. )
T on the ship would be about 199 years.
So not much time dilation at all.
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Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
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Given the time frame, I would suspect that the mass is inadequate. If you have a really good suspended animation system, by at least ten fold. If you don't? Er.... at least a hundred thousand fold?
My worse than 'back of an envelope' guesses.
edit: yes I know those were the values you were given, I just think it's crazily optimistic best case mass.
Thanks for doing the math though! information=good.
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Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
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1) Send out robots to prep a site on another planet for colonization. Work would probably take quite a few decades.
2) If humans can't be sent in stasis, then:
- Sperm, eggs, and artificial wombs.
- Androids to produce and raise the infants after arrival.
(Big space and mass savings if you do it this way, rather than adults in stasis.)
But we got started down the route of "let's use rockets to get into space," and now we're pretty firmly entrenched with that method.
Not having an atmosphere is also an issue for landing. Landing on a planet with atmosphere means that you can use a heat shield and ablate your way to a slower speed, and then deploy a parachute. These things are relatively lightweight and simple to use.
Landing somewhere with no atmosphere means you need to use rockets to slow down, and that means you need to be able to launch that fuel in the first place so that you can haul enough of it to your destination to permit a soft touchdown.
2) If humans can't be sent in stasis, then:
- Sperm, eggs, and artificial wombs.
- Androids to produce and raise the infants after arrival.
(Big space and mass savings if you do it this way, rather than adults in stasis.)
Earth's atmosphere could be used for more efficient launches, but it isn't. (Push an airplane through air. It gets lift.) Spaceship One uses this method: Fly up to a high altitude, using the thick atmosphere to efficiently gain altitude, then use the fuel-hungry rockets. It takes a lot of energy to get out of a gravity well, and it doesn't help that you're hauling a full load of fuel while you're also trying to push through the thickest part of the atmosphere.
But we got started down the route of "let's use rockets to get into space," and now we're pretty firmly entrenched with that method.
Not having an atmosphere is also an issue for landing. Landing on a planet with atmosphere means that you can use a heat shield and ablate your way to a slower speed, and then deploy a parachute. These things are relatively lightweight and simple to use.
Landing somewhere with no atmosphere means you need to use rockets to slow down, and that means you need to be able to launch that fuel in the first place so that you can haul enough of it to your destination to permit a soft touchdown.
Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
- 35
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Yeah. Huge weight savings there. You don't just save money on moving full sized humans, you don't necessarily need a life support system.
One issue is how well do robots raise humans, especially given the unknowns of the destination planet. You can certainly do trial runs on Earth, ignoring some ethical issues. (No problem finding volunteer zygote/fetus donors though, hi MTV
)For something this big, you could possibly do the launch from the moon. Smaller gravity well, etc.
As for the target planet... I'd at least want to have some assurance it had an atmosphere, and preferably not one like Venus's. Otherwise the mission ends pretty quickly, Unless you've somehow packed enough fuel to go the the next star.
Paratus
Lifer
- Jun 4, 2004
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Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
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DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Thanks for the calculations; if you look elsewhere, they're almost identical to the results I got a few years back. Those calculations indicate: unless we develop fusion power, we are NOT getting out of the solar system.
I'm not against manned space missions in the future - a future where we do have things like fusion power, and maybe, the ability to warp space sufficiently to move a manned vehicle through (or whatever the word is) space at faster than light speed (or simply faster than vehicles we have now.)
Our state of technology at present time is akin to "hey, we're in Europe. We detected there's some land over there called America. Let's go there... in our canoes." Actually, that's a bad analogy - the jump from canoes to ships is fundamentally different than the jump from chemically fueled space ships to space ships that can warp space.
And, for the record, I'm in favor of quadrupling NASA's budget. Just don't fritter it away on extravagant projects. Look at the interest in space the Hubble created. (Of course, that's almost a bad example, since it was "broken" when originally sent to space and required human intervention to fix. Then again, a new Hubble could have been sent up for a fraction of the cost of the manned missions to fix it.) It was fortuitous to put it in low earth orbit, instead of a better place (Lagrangian point), simply because it provided something useful for the Space Shuttle to do besides go in circles.
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