Question Is Microsoft Going to Screw Its Customers?

[BonzaiDuck]

I've posted at least a few threads about dealing with the end-of-service for Windows 10 Pro, including threads on the "solution" of the IoT Enterprise 2021 LTSC "upgrade" to extend support through 2032. I mentioned that I have three Win 10 systems, two currently Skylake and one Kaby Lake. The Kaby is the only system with the Enterprise LTSC version installed. It is doing "just fine".

But I've seen thread posts at other web-sites -- the MS Community, Ten Forums etc. -- suggesting that a Z170 motherboard with its latest BIOS, the addition of the appropriate TPM 2.0 plug-in module and a Kaby Lake processor will likely run smoothly without error for updates -- with the feature updates at least installable manually. I want to test my "theory" on one of these machines.

So today I'm going to install the TPM 2.0 module, poke around in BIOS, and then plan my approach: a fresh install of Win 11 Pro, because you cannot upgrade from IoT Enterprise 2021 to Win 11 Pro to "save files and programs." All I need to do is run this fresh install to put Win 11 Pro on the current NVME boot disk; all of my files and software installation programs are on other drives -- a 2TB Crucial SSD, and two hot-swap 2.5" HDDs.

HOWEVER! I did some more poking around to see about the support for Windows 11. MICROSOFT HAS NOW DEFINED SUPPORT ACCORDING TO VERSION FEATURE UPDATES! So support for Win 11 version 24H2 -- the latest -- only runs through 2026! If I thought I might really "need" the test system, it's hardly worth it if I cannot successfully update to the feature version that succeeds 24H2.

So this suggests something about the vague eventual release of Windows 12. Is Microsoft deliberately attempting to screw us out of even the eligible hardware we have or may have for Windows 11 Pro? Apparently their strategy for OS versions is now determined primarily with corporate IT in mind. How does that serve, or do disservice -- to "individual" users or customers? Are they going to screw us?

 

[quikah]

Tech companies have become more strict with ending life of products. Not just MS. Intel ended support for that Kaby Lake CPU last year.

This site has a pretty good summary of many end of life dates. https://endoflife.date/

Windows has moved to a 2 year support cycle for home and 3 year for enterprise. 25H2 should be coming in a month or 2. I really doubt they would leave everyone high and dry (but you never know).

Get ready for Windows 11, version 25H2 - Windows IT Pro Blog

Ready for the next feature update? Windows 11, version 25H2 is coming as an enablement package (eKB) later this year!

techcommunity.microsoft.com

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Tech companies have become more strict with ending life of products. Not just MS. Intel ended support for that Kaby Lake CPU last year.

This site has a pretty good summary of many end of life dates. https://endoflife.date/

Windows has moved to a 2 year support cycle for home and 3 year for enterprise. 25H2 should be coming in a month or 2. I really doubt they would leave everyone high and dry (but you never know).

Get ready for Windows 11, version 25H2 - Windows IT Pro Blog

Ready for the next feature update? Windows 11, version 25H2 is coming as an enablement package (eKB) later this year!

techcommunity.microsoft.com

So . . . what is this . . . "support" . . . that I "need" for Kaby Lake? The processor isn't going to die. What does support MEAN for that product?!

See, there was a time when I had computers that ran MS-DOS. When windows 3.0 came along, I got it. Then 3.1. Then 3.11. As soon as we had Win 95 -- I jumped on that sucker! Then the same with Win 98, and Windows NT, and Windows XP, XP Media Center, Windows 7 and Windows 10. I was staying AHEAD! But . . . I'm TIRED of this S**T! I need to squeeze more life out of this older hardware.

But you can check my other threads. I've got this licked! I DO! [For now . . . ] What's going to happen when I have dementia and can't remember my account IDs and passwords? Disaster! I have to stave off Disaster!!

 

[Jimminy]

If you get dementia, you likely won't even care about computers, much less try to use them.

 

[lxskllr]

What's going to happen when I have dementia and can't remember my account IDs and passwords? Disaster! I have to stave off Disaster!!

You should be using a password manager, dementia or not. Everyone should. It's the only way you can feasibly have good passwords that can be recalled. If you can remember your password, it probably sucks. Matters less for forums and trivialities than it does for finance or the keys to your system.

I like KeePass variants. Offline, but can be synced with the service of your choice, and you can fill it with data that isn't passwords. Anything useful to remember that you want to keep secure. You remember one uber password to open your vault, and the program remembers all the rest.

 

[mikeymikec]

Each feature update of Windows 10/11 is supported for two years. Before 24H2 EOL's, 25H2 and 26H2 will probably have been released.

25H2 is the same codebase as 24H2 so I would be highly surprised if there are going to be any compatibility surprises there.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You should be using a password manager, dementia or not. Everyone should. It's the only way you can feasibly have good passwords that can be recalled. If you can remember your password, it probably sucks. Matters less for forums and trivialities than it does for finance or the keys to your system.

I like KeePass variants. Offline, but can be synced with the service of your choice, and you can fill it with data that isn't passwords. Anything useful to remember that you want to keep secure. You remember one uber password to open your vault, and the program remembers all the rest.

Well actually I created an account ID and password database table. In several cases the web browser remembers ID and password. I'm just attempting humor at discussing the malady of growing old. Watching my Moms slide downhill really made me realize what many of us could be facing. If it sounds as though 10% of seniors will have dementia or Oldheimers, ANYBODY could be among the 10%. And ALL old people start to have more memory difficulties without being diagnosed with these maladies, even if they get checked by their physician or neurologist annually.

If I have lunch with friends in my age group, the conversation invariably includes remarks like "I just had a senior moment and can't remember" or "I had a brain fart".

A friend who died in 2022 at 80 described it this way. Assume the human brain is roughly functioning the way computer models of Turing and von Neumann work. There's a "stack", and it gets more and more crowded with age. So it takes longer to recall stuff that you'd previously had just on the tip of your tongue, as they say.

Each feature update of Windows 10/11 is supported for two years. Before 24H2 EOL's, 25H2 and 26H2 will probably have been released.

25H2 is the same codebase as 24H2 so I would be highly surprised if there are going to be any compatibility surprises there.

It raises an interesting question, given certain facts. For instance, the Win 11 IoT . . . LTSC versions have relaxed hardware requirements, so I was able to install it without any problem concerning my Kaby Lake processor. But with more and more feature updates, what are they going to do about their CPU eligibility list? Oh -- I suppose Win 11 is . . . Win 11. But either you or someone else said -- maybe it was Igor -- you don't know what M$ is going to do; you can't predict that future.

Otherwise, I'd use these retail box Win 11 Pro installations I have on the old hardware. At least one, however, is destined for my December Arrow Lake or Ryzen build -- whichever.

 

[quikah]

So . . . what is this . . . "support" . . . that I "need" for Kaby Lake? The processor isn't going to die. What does support MEAN for that product?!

Microcode updates. Usually for security issues. Intel won't make them for pre 8th gen core processors.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Microcode updates. Usually for security issues. Intel won't make them for pre 8th gen core processors.

Hummm. That poses a possible scenario which could discourage my thoughts about putting Win 11 Pro on one or more of these systems. It poses uncertainties for general security updates and at some unspecified future time.

I'd do better for keeping this dated hardware running if I can assure security updates for at least a few years with Win 10 using a variant like IoT Enterprise.

 

[RLGL]

Is Microsoft Going to Screw Its Customers​

Why Not ?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Is Microsoft Going to Screw Its Customers​

Why Not ?

Why not? Then why are we all such Lemmings, to follow them around at every turn? Because We're hooked on keeping our data and doing online banking?! Maybe LINUX IS the real answer . . . .

 

[igor_kavinski]

See, there was a time when I had computers that ran MS-DOS. When windows 3.0 came along, I got it. Then 3.1. Then 3.11. As soon as we had Win 95 -- I jumped on that sucker! Then the same with Win 98, and Windows NT, and Windows XP, XP Media Center, Windows 7 and Windows 10.

Used Windows NT but not Windows 2000??? I remember dual booting between Win98 (only if necessary) and Windows 2000 until XP came out. Win2K was just plain awesome for someone used to installing Win98 too much and getting all sorts of exception errors and blue screens. The first ever rock solid Windows I ever experienced.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe LINUX IS the real answer . . . .

It would be if people would just agree on what a basic Linux experience should be. Every team of distro maintainers (sometimes even just one individual maintainer) have their own ideas of what a free OS should be like. The closest I've seen something usable at least from UI standpoint is https://winuxos.org/

 

[manly]

Used Windows NT but not Windows 2000??? I remember dual booting between Win98 (only if necessary) and Windows 2000 until XP came out. Win2K was just plain awesome for someone used to installing Win98 too much and getting all sorts of exception errors and blue screens. The first ever rock solid Windows I ever experienced.

But Win2K wasn't designed for consumer use. So mostly, consumer apps would need to be run by Admin until they were rewritten for WinXP to handle regular accounts.

It was "rock solid" because the alternative was Win98.

It would be if people would just agree on what a basic Linux experience should be. Every team of distro maintainers (sometimes even just one individual maintainer) have their own ideas of what a free OS should be like. The closest I've seen something usable at least from UI standpoint is https://winuxos.org/

That's called freedom, the freedom to be good or bad.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Used Windows NT but not Windows 2000??? I remember dual booting between Win98 (only if necessary) and Windows 2000 until XP came out. Win2K was just plain awesome for someone used to installing Win98 too much and getting all sorts of exception errors and blue screens. The first ever rock solid Windows I ever experienced.

Twenty-five years later, and I'm supposed to remember EVERY version of M$ Windows in my long-running experience?! OF COURSE I ran systems with Windows 2000. I kept one of them running -- probably with the server version, while we upgraded to XP.

This roll-out of the WIN 10 ESU seems "parsimonious". With only a reprieve of an extra year, I've enrolled one of three almost-identical (SKY-KABY- Z170) PCs. I was starting to search for solutions to the other two, but I figured I would use one to experiment with Win 11 (successful), Win 10 IoT . . LTSC (successful) -- keeping the Win 11 to monitor it. I put W11 on a second system -- knowing I could "wait" until October 2026 to upgrade the ESU system one way or the other.

But we need to take stock of our hardware. My systems use 8-year-old hardware technology. One would think that "it's about time" to replace CPUs and chipsets. I just grew complacent with the PCs I'd built and cultivated, while other life-duties commanding my attention.

The machinations and hacks I would probably pursue to put the other two ( now Win 11 machines) on an ESU subscription with Windows 10 are too much trouble just to get a 1-year extension. So in addition to experimenting with Win 11 and marginally "ineligible" hardware or following the LTSC path, I am acquiring "new" hardware with which I can use "old" RAM kits. With that, I buy myself two or three generations of CPU which are "inside the Windows 11 umbrella of certainty". It has so far cost me less than my annual $1000 hardware/software budget just to acquire some of that hardware. And for the last five years, I had only spent a TOTAL of $600.

To my experience, these last eight years were the first time I ever felt totally comfortable with the same aging hardware for that length of time.

There seems to be "Hope in the Air" looking toward the Win 11 25H2 update/upgrade. If I begin to sense trouble, the hardware-swap option will get earlier attention.

But I may move to swap MOBO/CPU for one of my three boxes -- within a couple months of today. So I need to formulate a smooth transition of the Win 11 boot disk to the new hardware, and provide for successful activations as they may be needed. I probably need to read up on SYSPREP and other topics.

 

[Zepp]

...Maybe LINUX IS the real answer . . . .

it absolutely is, IF it can work for your use case

it's really up to the user whether it can be the answer they were looking for or not sufficient enough for them to switch.

I went through many phases of deciding it wasn't up to my use case over the years before changing my mind. Though my use case has quite simplified in recent years.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Linux might not be the best solution for me, or it is otherwise not the only solution.

I'm just coming around to the view that I have hardware more than old enough to replace -- with or without the Microsoft exclusions, potentially affecting three of my four computers -- leaving a Win 11 2021 laptop. I am determined to keep at least two and as I please -- three -- desktop PCs in operation here.

I plan on building a new PC current to Arrow Lake in the next year or so, but the remaining boxes can use older but "eligible" hardware -- or for a time, the existing parts. I just know that I now have all my bases covered, and that I don't need to raise all the PCs to an upgrade with this year's CPU/chipset releases.

 

[Sgraffite]

Windows keeps giving me more reasons NOT to use it and Linux keeps giving me more reasons TO use it.

I set up a second PC with Linux Mint to see what software will and won't work for my daily use cases. So far the main software that I use that doesn't work on Linux is Fusion360. There's probably other software as well, just haven't run into it yet, or have a viable alternative. Some games also do not work, but I have been pleasantly surprised how many do. Linux does feel a lot snappier than Windows 11 for me. There are some other options I have not tried, such as running Windows in a VM for software that does not work in Linux.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Windows keeps giving me more reasons NOT to use it and Linux keeps giving me more reasons TO use it.

I set up a second PC with Linux Mint to see what software will and won't work for my daily use cases. So far the main software that I use that doesn't work on Linux is Fusion360. There's probably other software as well, just haven't run into it yet, or have a viable alternative. Some games also do not work, but I have been pleasantly surprised how many do. Linux does feel a lot snappier than Windows 11 for me. There are some other options I have not tried, such as running Windows in a VM for software that does not work in Linux.

I have enough parts, in addition to preparations to upgrade hardware in the existing machines. I could set up a Linux test system, to get my feet wet.

 

[igor_kavinski]

There are some other options I have not tried, such as running Windows in a VM for software that does not work in Linux.

Use VMware Workstation for Linux. Their emulation is hands down the fastest I've experienced yet, at least in compute workloads. My GB6 score inside the guest Win10 IoT VM was actually slightly higher than the host Win11. Never would've expected that because for a long time, I had read that a hypervisor usually gives about 90% of the host CPU's performance.

However, anything to do with massive I/O will still be slower since that involves massive context switching as the hypervisor needs to go through the host OS for every I/O related system call. Linux could be faster than Windows though if they patched in some optimization for this use case.

 

[Sgraffite]

Use VMware Workstation for Linux. Their emulation is hands down the fastest I've experienced yet, at least in compute workloads. My GB6 score inside the guest Win10 IoT VM was actually slightly higher than the host Win11. Never would've expected that because for a long time, I had read that a hypervisor usually gives about 90% of the host CPU's performance.

However, anything to do with massive I/O will still be slower since that involves massive context switching as the hypervisor needs to go through the host OS for every I/O related system call. Linux could be faster than Windows though if they patched in some optimization for this use case.

For CAD performance I expect single threaded performance to be important for calculating changes, and some level of GPU is needed for panning around, zooming in/out and such

 

[igor_kavinski]

For CAD performance I expect single threaded performance to be important for calculating changes, and some level of GPU is needed for panning around, zooming in/out and such

ST should be fine but I suspect that the GPU part is going to be disappointing.