Is martial arts a practical form of self defense?

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Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
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Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: Ornery
We had a local fellow get jumped by four guys outside a bar about ten years ago. He used a knife and walked away. One of the attackers died. Not sure what happened to the other three. A jury later let him walk away, too.
Carry one of those in California and they'll take your ass to jail on a big time felony. And let the victims sue you.....
That's CA for you. Get attacked by thugs, send 'em to the hospital and then they sue you!
rolleye.gif


Those blades are too long for Ohio too, but you can grind them down till they're legal. The point is (hah, point), I'll take my chances with a knife, or other weapon, over years of training in any "practical form of self defense".

Edit: That reminds me. A friend of mine teaches martial arts. I believe he said he has to be careful about getting in a fight, or HE could get sued. Ironic, no?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
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There are definitely 'practical' forms of martial arts out there. Practitioners of some unpractical martial arts will swear on their mother's grave that their forms are 'practical', because they can't very well admit they've just spent ten thousand hours perfecting some fancy precision kicking, trapping, and chopping that will likely get them killed on the street.

A big one is Kung Fu, which has been heavily tainted by the 'artistic' influences and expressions of Chinese culture. Bruce Lee was big enough to admit it: Kung Fu sucks as a practical combative discipline. And he should know, he was arguably among the world's most proficient practioners of it and it still failed him on the street to such an extent that he felt compelled to go about trying to change 1000 years of deeply-entrenched thinking on the matter. Its very impressive visually (artistic), and it certainly is an art in its own right, requiring tons of dedication and athleticism. But that doesn't make it 'effective', it makes it 'impressive'.

Watch, here they come...
I can't see how much learning something like Tae Kwon Do will help someone who's 5'2", 120 lb., defend himself from someone who's 6'2, 220 lb..or does it?
No discipline or its instructor is worth his salt if he teaches "size doesn't matter". Its an inescapable matter of physics. I can run a Geo into a Kenworth at 100MPH and probably not do any major damage to a Kenworth while rendering the Geo unidentifiable.

Yes, size does matter, but there are ways to smartly go about addressing that and 'equalizing' disparities of force. However, there are no guarantees. As a matter of reality, the degree of risk and difficulty is going to increase, and the likelihood of escaping without injury is going to decrease, the smaller the defender and the larger the aggressor. You have to accept that right off, but that doesn't mean its a hopeless cause.

Its not always about 'defeating' someone in good form like you're in a tournement. In fact, its rarely about that. Some times, you have to prepare yourself for pain because the odds are damned high that you're going to get hurt. Often, its about temporarily 'stunning' your opponent so that you can create an opportunity to safely escape and get the hell out of there.

You can increase your odds across the board if you learn how to handle and train for these situations.

Of course, I'm talking about "self-defense" (personal protection), not wanting to take martial arts so you can 'open up a can of ass-whipping' on someone because they looked at you hard or offended you. If you want to take martial arts so you can defend your 'honor' or 'pride', well then good luck with that.
 
Jan 31, 2002
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Originally posted by: Ornery
That's CA for you. Get attacked by thugs, send 'em to the hospital and then they sue you!
rolleye.gif


Those blades are too long for Ohio too, but you can grind them down till they're legal. The point is (hah, point), I'll take my chances with a knife, or other weapon, over years of training in any "practical form of self defense".

Edit: That reminds me. A friend of mine teaches martial arts. I believe he said he has to be careful about getting in a fight, or HE could get sued. Ironic, no?

Once you reach a certain level, you have to inform your assailant of your training and that you are a registered (lethal) weapon and engaging in combat with you could result in serious physical harm or death.

- M4H
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
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Originally posted by: Krassus
Originally posted by: Viper GTS
Well, I've been taking taekwondo for a little over a month now & there's a 12 year old girl who's a third degree black belt. She's not even 5'2, but I have no doubt she could kick my ass. I'm 6'2 ~220. Viper GTS
LOL!! I'd quit the moment i saw that. What a scam. Why do people still study TKD at those belt factories?

well walking out because you seen a 12yr old black belt is just silly of you. I know a 13yr old black belt in Hapkido. He practices 3 days a week (the max we can) and he does lots of training on his own. He joined when he was 6 years old and goes year around. While it is uncommon to see such kids i would NOT walk out of a joint just because i seen one. Now if i had seen 4+ that were NOT family i would have to question the place.

I'm 5'6 and 165lbs and my years of hapkido, self-defence and wrestling have gave me the skills i need to defend myself. anyone that does not really work at it and spend a few years at it will not get the skills to defend themselves with it.

heck my wife is ~5ft (her license says 5'1" but i swear she is just under 5ft) and ~100lbs. she is a black belt in karate, hapkido and has taken self-defence classes. I saw her spare against a guy that was 6'4" ~200lbs and she kicked his ass. granted she is very fast and flexible and can hit every throw and move.

Edit: oh just wanted to add that I have looked into many diffrent styles. Hapkido seemed like the one that was best for getting myself out of situation alive. granted it is rather violent but long as it gets me home is all that matters.
 
Dec 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: tcsenter
There are definitely 'practical' forms of martial arts out there. Practitioners of some unpractical martial arts will swear on their mother's grave that their forms are 'practical', because they can't very well admit they've just spent ten thousand hours perfecting some fancy precision kicking, trapping, and chopping that will likely get them killed on the street.

A big one is Kung Fu, which has been heavily tainted by the 'artistic' influences and expressions of Chinese culture. Bruce Lee was big enough to admit it: Kung Fu sucks as a practical combative discipline. And he should know, he was arguably among the world's most proficient practioners of it and it still failed him on the street to such an extent that he felt compelled to go about trying to change 1000 years of deeply-entrenched thinking on the matter. Its very impressive visually (artistic), and it certainly is an art in its own right, requiring tons of dedication and athleticism. But that doesn't make it 'effective', it makes it 'impressive'.

Nice to know it. "Bruce Lee said kung fu sucks, so it must be true!"
Well Bruce Lee drinks Pepsi. Oh, and he's dead (add to the fact that he only learned Wing Chun from a harder stylist - his main instructor was not Si-Jo Yip Man).
It's nice to know that all versions of Kung Fu are ineffective. Even though there's thousands of versions of them. And no, he wasn't the pest Wing Chun practitioner in the world, he only took about three years worth of Wing Chun and came to the US - half the stuff the babbles on about his books are Wing Chun common sense (why would he say stuff about ).
Really, it's really, really nice to know that a good, deep stance and a correct direction of force can't do good - and it's a coincidence that people who used to practice Juijitsu and boxing come under our si-fu to study the system - they want to learn the style "which has been heavily tainted by the 'artistic' influences and expressions of Chinese culture".

I may not know what I'm talking about a lot of times, but I really, really hesitate to think that I'm wrong on this.

Dumbass.:|:|:|
 

LordRaiden

Banned
Dec 10, 2002
2,358
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It all depends on what you learn and how you learn it. I know Hapkido and Judo and believe me, ask any of the dozens of guys who've gone up against me. A man who knows his stuff is a powerful weapon.

Of course my new Sensai thinks I'm the worst excuse for a martial arts master, even if I am technically a top rated practitioner. I may be able to beat all his students, but he can still kick my a$$ all the way around the studio. Still trying to figure out how to beat him without getting a trip to the emergency room. :D
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
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Really, it's really, really nice to know that a good, deep stance and a correct direction of force can't do good - and it's a coincidence that people who used to practice Juijitsu and boxing come under our si-fu to study the system - they want to learn the style "which has been heavily tainted by the 'artistic' influences and expressions of Chinese culture".
There are many different reasons people seek out certain arts, some having nothing to with combative effectiveness. It would be interesting to see this very unusual phenomenon of Jujitsu, Muay Thai, Tae kwan do, Shotokan karate, shootfighting, Kali, Arnis, and Philipino martial arts practitioners mass-migrating to Kung Fu vs. the other way around as it has been occurring every where for the last decade or more.

You're correct to point out there are hundreds (I don't know about thousands) of Kung Fu styles and it wasn't fair to lump them all in together. I'm sure some styles of Kung Fu are more practical than others. I'm also sure I haven't even heard of many of them. If its a fairly recent evolution of Kung Fu borrowing heavily from mixed martial arts, then it may have something to offer.

However, there simply isn't any significant representation of Kung Fu in NHB competitions, nor law enforcement and military combative training; from state police and corrections officers, to federal law enforcement agents, to the special forces community. Lots of representations of Kung Fu in theatre, expositions, demonstrations, but little place else.

In short, professionals who make their living putting themselves into hostile close quarters combat situations do not prefer or usually even speak of Kung Fu (regardless of the style).
 
Dec 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: tcsenter
There are many different reasons people seek out certain arts, some having nothing to with combative effectiveness. It would be interesting to see this very unusual phenomenon of Jujitsu, Muay Thai, Tae kwan do, Shotokan karate, shootfighting, Kali, Arnis, and Philipino martial arts practitioners mass-migrating to Kung Fu vs. the other way around as it has been occurring every where for the last decade or more.

You're correct to point out there are hundreds (I don't know about thousands) of Kung Fu styles and it wasn't fair to lump them all in together. I'm sure some styles of Kung Fu are more practical than others. I'm also sure I haven't even heard of many of them. If its a fairly recent evolution of Kung Fu borrowing heavily from mixed martial arts, then it may have something to offer.

However, there simply isn't any significant representation of Kung Fu in NHB competitions, nor law enforcement and military combative training; from state police and corrections officers, to federal law enforcement agents, to the special forces community. Lots of representations of Kung Fu in theatre, expositions, demonstrations, but little place else.

In short, professionals who make their living putting themselves into hostile close quarters combat situations do not prefer or usually even speak of Kung Fu (regardless of the style).

Oh really?

Sifu collins has now accepted this offer and will now be based in Quantico, Virginia, the home of the USMC Martial Arts Training School where nearly 600 000 marines will trian throughout their careers.

Your ignorance of Kung Fu is a beacon for the masses. To ignore. Idiot.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
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A 9mm is effective self defense if you know how to use it and don't let someone take it from you =)
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
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Originally posted by: Jeff7181
A 9mm is effective self defense if you know how to use it and don't let someone take it from you =)

But does it bring inner peace and all that other sh!t?
 
Dec 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: Jeff7181
A 9mm is effective self defense if you know how to use it and don't let someone take it from you =)

Tae-Bo is effective self defense if you know how to use it and make someone stay still.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
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Basically any and all systems teach some sort of basic self defense at the beginner levels.

Granted I am partial to it, but I do think jujutsu offers more flexibility and practicality. Typcially arts such as Karata, Kenpo, Tae Kwan Do seem to be less flexible. I have no first hand experience with Kung Fu and will not make an opinion of that by reading a few websites.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
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Originally posted by: UglyCassanova
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
A 9mm is effective self defense if you know how to use it and don't let someone take it from you =)

But does it bring inner peace and all that other sh!t?

Definately... I'm at peace when I have my 9mm in my jacket. Not a worry in the world =)
 

newbiepcuser

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2001
4,474
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heck my wife is ~5ft (her license says 5'1" but i swear she is just under 5ft) and ~100lbs. she is a black belt in karate, hapkido and has taken self-defence classes. I saw her spare against a guy that was 6'4" ~200lbs and she kicked his ass. granted she is very fast and flexible and can hit every throw and move.

Is this full contact sparing like MMA where shoots(take downs), knees, etc are allowed, or there are set rules for points awarded for kicks and punches like in karate kid.

Here is a top MMA female fighter that would kick a lot of guys arse--->Erin Toughhill





 
Dec 28, 2001
11,391
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Originally posted by: Babbles
Basically any and all systems teach some sort of basic self defense at the beginner levels.

Granted I am partial to it, but I do think jujutsu offers more flexibility and practicality. Typcially arts such as Karata, Kenpo, Tae Kwan Do seem to be less flexible. I have no first hand experience with Kung Fu and will not make an opinion of that by reading a few websites.

THANK YOU! :):):)
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
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BTW... I don't really have a 9mm... I was just making a point, lol. Although I do intend to get a concealed weapons permit soon.
 
Dec 28, 2001
11,391
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Originally posted by: Jeff7181
BTW... I don't really have a 9mm... I was just making a point, lol. Although I do intend to get a concealed weapons permit soon.

Well, don't thik I was being a 100% asswipe - only 50%;), since it does bring up a good example - regardless of any style, there's the always " . . . if only" precursor. You know, would a 9mm pistol be the best bet if I was 500 yards away with a sniper gun? Probably not. What if I was close enough to grab your arms before you can take it out?

If you're in kicking range, I doubt that you can do any better then TKD(taught properly).

If you're in punching range, well, I suppose this is up for debate, but I'd wager between boxing/Muay Thai/WT:).

And so on and so forth (MMA is vulnerable to this either, BTW - would a 5'4 petite girl be able to beat a muscular man with equal amounts of training? I somehow doubt it.).
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: newbiepcuser
heck my wife is ~5ft (her license says 5'1" but i swear she is just under 5ft) and ~100lbs. she is a black belt in karate, hapkido and has taken self-defence classes. I saw her spare against a guy that was 6'4" ~200lbs and she kicked his ass. granted she is very fast and flexible and can hit every throw and move.

Is this full contact sparing like MMA where shoots(take downs), knees, etc are allowed, or there are set rules for points awarded for kicks and punches like in karate kid.

Exactly what I was thinking. I took Tae Kwon Doe when I was younger, and I really doubt it's effectiveness in a real fight. Most fights end up on the ground, so you'd probably be better served learning a disclipline with disabling holds such as jiu-jitsu or wrestling.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
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Your ignorance of Kung Fu is a beacon for the masses. To ignore. Idiot.
And your misrepresentation of the facts is even more stupendous. I wrote:
In short, professionals who make their living putting themselves into hostile close quarters combat situations do not prefer or usually even speak of Kung Fu (regardless of the style).
In a miserably unsuccessful attempt to refute that, you manage to cite, nothing that refutes "professionals who make their living putting themselves into hostile close quarters combat situations do not prefer or usually even speak of Kung Fu (regardless of the style)." (i.e. law enforcement, corrections officers, and special forces). Instead, you cite only one of many martial arts instructors who teach at the USMC Martial Arts Training School (USMC-MATS), someone who happens to have a WT background. Christopher Collins also has a kickboxing background, among a couple other disciplines.

Here's where you become educated. The United States Marine Corps literally has it own martial art called the Marine Corps Martial Arts. This formal program is taught by many different USMC certified instructors as part of The Marine Corps Martial Art Program (MCMAP). It has evolved over decades, heavily derived from not only the Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate by which early proponents of MA-based USMC combative training were influenced, but also fencing, kickboxing, Judo, and Jujitsu, and real-world lessons in battle.

You will find a number of USMC certified MCMAP instructors who have backgrounds in a range of arts, teaching various levels of MCMAP at the USMC-MATS. That doesn't mean they're teaching "their" arts to the Marine Corps. If they're a USMC-MCMAP instructor, you can bet your ass they're teaching MCMAP, with a little of their own interpretation tossed-in, of course.

Chris Collins serves in the USMC as a member of Force Recon. An impressive accomplishment, to be sure. While Collins was active duty, he "taught" hand-to-hand combat to his Marine peers. That doesn't make him a USMC hand-to-hand instructor nor does it mean Collins was "teaching WT to The Marines". He may have taught WT to "some Marines", but that is different from claiming he 'taught WT to the Marines' as part of some official USMC program.

You often find people who enter the military with a high degree of training in some martial art and they will become known among their peers as the 'martial arts guy'. Contrary to what some may believe, most law enforcement, corrections officers, military and special forces members possess very little or no formal instruction (MA or otherwise) prior to entering their professional training.

Most of their peers aren't going to know Wing Tsun from Wing Dings, they just want to learn a little of [whatever the resident martial arts guy is willing to teach them] to complement their 'official' military hand-to-hand training, which many law enforcement and special forces members feel to be 'rushed'. This training is usually done on their own time, not under the 'auspices' of the US Military.

In fact, there is a real problem in the martial arts community with people making false or misleading statements for marketing purposes, claiming or strongly implying that they were 'authorized' to teach [insert martial art here] to the US [insert military branch here], when in fact the true nature of any 'instruction' was exactly as I described above.

If I worked at Walmart, and taught some of my Walmart co-workers a little hand-to-hand, that would not make me an "Official Walmart Hand-to-Hand Combat Instructor." It means I taught hand-to-hand combat to some of my Walmart peers - nothing more.

What you have found is an exception in the law enforcement, military, and special forces community, but then again, it might not be an exception in that Collins may not be 'teaching WT to Marines'. More likely, he's teaching standardized USMC MCMAP, with his own interpretation tossed-in based on his extensive fighting and combative experience (which is not limited to WT).

Oh, yes, on edit: And I'm sure Chris Collins could kick my ass using nothing but purist WT techniques and one hand tied behind his back. At least, I hope he could. He's a member of an elite commando unit legendary for its toughness, has been a highly-proficient practitioner of [various] martial arts for years, and has fought in dozens of high-level competitions, including kickboxing.

That is not the point.
 

Adrian Tung

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,370
1
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I'll donate my 2 cents to this discussion.

Recently here in Malaysia we had a big discussion about the effectiveness of martial arts after a particular rape and murder case surfaced on the news. The victim was said to have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and the circumstances of the case do not reflect her proficiency in the art.

To cut things short, we came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what martial arts you know, and what the colour of your belt is, as your actual combat proficiency relies heavily on your own combat experience and ability to keep a level head under pressure.

A problem with a lot of local schools here is that their lessons are more geared for sparring and tournaments - producing sportsmen rather than warriors, or so to speak. They have very little true combat experience; in spars and tournaments, you have rules and regulations to adhere to. A real fight has no such thing - hurt/kill or be hurt/killed. Therefore a proficient street fighter would theoretically have a better advantage against an "inexperienced" martial artist of similar level.

Personally I don't know any martial arts and have only seen practitioners through websites and television-hosted tournaments. I doubt that these people can handle real fights unless they have had similar exposure themselves.

As for myself, I have a small build and would rather stun-and-run an opponent than to risk injury and death. ;)


:)atwl
 

Daniel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
3,813
0
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Exactly what I was thinking. I took Tae Kwon Doe when I was younger, and I really doubt it's effectiveness in a real fight. Most fights end up on the ground, so you'd probably be better served learning a disclipline with disabling holds such as jiu-jitsu or wrestling.


Not commenting on the styles mentioned in any way but I see the above statement of "most fights end up on the ground" but no one really backs it up too much. I've seen many people quote FBI studies but they can never find them, does anyone have any hard facts or studies that actually show this?
 

amcdonald

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
4,012
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I'm 5'7-8" 145lbs (lean) and I've sparred guys who are nearly 7'
The only thing that replaces the innate fear of size disadvantage is confidence.
Once you have some skill and know how to plan around arms/legs twice as long as yours (or twice as thick) you get over the fear of your natural disadvantages. I'm quick as hell and besides experience thats all I have to work with. It might suprise you to see big guys hesitate when smaller guys come at them without fear/hesitation. And I don't care how big you are, everyone has eyes, a throat and easily fracturable ribs. However, if there's a 6'5" 250lb marine picking a fight with me, I'm going to try to avoid fighting with everything in me, because the odds are heavily against me. There's a fine line between confidence and stupidity :D

As far as quick self-defence, I'd recommend a small concealable weapon, preferably non-lethal (lawsuits).