Is libertarianism too rational?

[Incorruptible]

The US was built on slavery too, doesn't mean it was the right way to do things.

I never said slavery was the right way.

 

[Gardener]

Many have the misconception that libertarians are corporate pawns, but powerful corporations don't exist without powerful government protecting them.

Buy that man a beer. A libertarian who wants to re-write the corporate charter laws.

Its like seeing an albino deer in the wild.

 

[LegendKiller]

I never said slavery was the right way.

No, but you think that because it was done in the beginning that that is the only way to do it in the future, apparently. You also seem to think that the way that it was done makes, and the people who did it, infallible. Neither situation is true.

Libertopian policies were found to be utter failures immediately, it is why they were starting to be abandoned during the first administration of this country and why they have gradually been abandoned over time.

A lot of what was called the "age of enlightenment" was nothing more than idealistic thinking that was based upon a small and insular world of the wealthy and privileged land owners who thought the world revolved around them. This is how most libertopians think.

Even Adam Smith acknowledged that the government had a place in stabilizing and regulating markets. People loved to quote the "invisible hand" but fail to acknowledge it only works in a perfect world.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

The US was built on slavery too, doesn't mean it was the right way to do things.

So you're equating Libertarianism to Slavery? Wow nice leap there.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

No, but you think that because it was done in the beginning that that is the only way to do it in the future, apparently. You also seem to think that the way that it was done makes, and the people who did it, infallible. Neither situation is true.

Libertopian policies were found to be utter failures immediately, it is why they were starting to be abandoned during the first administration of this country and why they have gradually been abandoned over time.

A lot of what was called the "age of enlightenment" was nothing more than idealistic thinking that was based upon a small and insular world of the wealthy and privileged land owners who thought the world revolved around them. This is how most libertopians think.

Even Adam Smith acknowledged that the government had a place in stabilizing and regulating markets. People loved to quote the "invisible hand" but fail to acknowledge it only works in a perfect world.

There is a difference between stabilizing and regulating markets in a non-intrusive and in minimal and least distorting manner as possible versus the full on orgy of manipulation and distortion of markets we see today.

As for the "age of enlightenment", I think its pretty sad that you view some pretty fundamental principals that are required for a free society to function and set the framework for people to understand that the rights of the individual matter and helped to jump start movements such as the anti-slavery movement, the women's suffrage movement, etc grow and evolve as being "idealistic thinking".

 

[LegendKiller]

There is a difference between stabilizing and regulating markets in a non-intrusive and in minimal and least distorting manner as possible versus the full on orgy of manipulation and distortion of markets we see today.

As for the "age of enlightenment", I think its pretty sad that you view some pretty fundamental principals that are required for a free society to function and set the framework for people to understand that the rights of the individual matter and helped to jump start movements such as the anti-slavery movement, the women's suffrage movement, etc grow and evolve as being "idealistic thinking".

Yeah, the "age of enlightenment" I was speaking of was encapsulated in the timeframe of the "enlightened" thomas jefferson and his like, which is what we were talking about, you know, the "founding" of America? That would imply a specific time period, no? Further, I even spoke of the failure of such "enlightened" people (libertopians) to realize that their idealistic failures were exemplified by slavery.

But I'll excuse your lack of reading skills and/or comprehension. Do try to keep up next time.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Yeah, the "age of enlightenment" I was speaking of was encapsulated in the timeframe of the "enlightened" thomas jefferson and his like, which is what we were talking about, you know, the "founding" of America? That would imply a specific time period, no? Further, I even spoke of the failure of such "enlightened" people (libertopians) to realize that their idealistic failures were exemplified by slavery.

But I'll excuse your lack of reading skills and/or comprehension. Do try to keep up next time.

Yet considering that the "Age of Enlightenment" stretched from the late 17th century to the 18th century and men like Jefferson were influenced by and products of that period the point stands.

As for your slavery point I think you are being very casuistic in you statements. While Jefferson was a slave owner his views on slavery evolved overtime and eventually he had come to realize that slavery was wrong. Which then led him to advocated for its elimination. Furthermore your attempt to state that Libertarianism as a failure even though it was that "naive idealism" that changed the minds of people like Jefferson and inspired abolitionist groups to fight for the rights of the individual over the needs of the majority is more then a wee bit of a underhanded attempt to try to link support of Libertarianism to slavery.

 

[Vic]

And socialism is rational? The US was built on Libertarian values.

The US was built on Classical Liberal values, not Libertarian. There is a difference.

 

[LegendKiller]

Yet considering that the "Age of Enlightenment" stretched from the late 17th century to the 18th century and men like Jefferson were influenced by and products of that period the point stands.

As for your slavery point I think you are being very casuistic in you statements. While Jefferson was a slave owner his views on slavery evolved overtime and eventually he had come to realize that slavery was wrong. Which then led him to advocated for its elimination. Furthermore your attempt to state that Libertarianism as a failure even though it was that "naive idealism" that changed the minds of people like Jefferson and inspired abolitionist groups to fight for the rights of the individual over the needs of the majority is more then a wee bit of a underhanded attempt to try to link support of Libertarianism to slavery.

Yeah, Jefferson believed so much in ending slavery that he adhered to the moronic and libertopian perspective that the slave owners would "come to jesus" and free their slaves, without enforcement by the Federal government.

Now right there exemplifies exactly how idiotic people like Jefferson were. They were more than willing to grant rights and protect white males from oppression of a king but less than willing to federally extend those rights to all peoples of this country. Even his own lover remained a slave after he died, what a true believer in not only himself but his utter failure of a idealistic and idiotic belief system.

Jefferson was such a failure in "enlightenment" that he couldn't even see he was a hypocrite.

If there ever was a poster child for how stupid libertopian beliefs were, it is Thomas Jefferson. The failed "free enterprise" guy who hated banks, corporations and wanted a completely libertopian society. That is why he enslaved a race, fucked them (literally and figuratively), spent well beyond his means his entire life and, despite having slaves, failed at every business venture he tried. He is the American Hypocrite.

No wonder he has such an attraction to libertopians.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

People pigeon hole themselves because they believe less in the "ism" and more in the protection afforded by being a member of a group.

I decided to wait until there were more posts to see how the thread went. Looking at what followed your response I'd say that perhaps it's not so much a matter of protection but identifying with a group so that one can attack another. The "ists" seem to take their "isms" and wield it as a club. It's like watching monkeys flinging poo.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Yeah, Jefferson believed so much in ending slavery that he adhered to the moronic and libertopian perspective that the slave owners would "come to jesus" and free their slaves, without enforcement by the Federal government.

Now right there exemplifies exactly how idiotic people like Jefferson were. They were more than willing to grant rights and protect white males from oppression of a king but less than willing to federally extend those rights to all peoples of this country. Even his own lover remained a slave after he died, what a true believer in not only himself but his utter failure of a idealistic and idiotic belief system.

Jefferson was such a failure in "enlightenment" that he couldn't even see he was a hypocrite.

If there ever was a poster child for how stupid libertopian beliefs were, it is Thomas Jefferson. The failed "free enterprise" guy who hated banks, corporations and wanted a completely libertopian society. That is why he enslaved a race, fucked them (literally and figuratively), spent well beyond his means his entire life and, despite having slaves, failed at every business venture he tried. He is the American Hypocrite.

No wonder he has such an attraction to libertopians.

Rage all you want but you're just proving how toxic you are as a person. Was Jefferson flawed yes? I don't think anyone would deny that since he was a man after all however he did eventually change his mind on topics such as slavery. However attempting to link slavery, Jefferson and Libertarianism and then paint it all into one corner just proves how very dishonest of you are as person or how flawed your understanding is about Libertarianism. It would be like linking feminism with the support of NAZI inspired eugenics and racism via Margaret Sanger who herself was a staunch feminist but supported of eugenics for those "undesirables" in society.

 

[LegendKiller]

Rage all you want but you're just proving how toxic you are as a person. Was Jefferson flawed yes? I don't think anyone would deny that since he was a man after all however he did eventually change his mind on topics such as slavery. However attempting to link slavery, Jefferson and Libertarianism and then paint it all into one corner just proves how very dishonest of you are as person or how flawed your understanding is about Libertarianism. It would be like linking feminism with the support of NAZI inspired eugenics and racism via Margaret Sanger who herself was a staunch feminist but supported of eugenics for those "undesirables" in society.

LOL, was he flawed? His entire life is a monument to the failures of his "enlightened" mind.

I wasn't the one who brought up how this country was founded on libertarian principles and since Jefferson is usually the poster child for those, he is an interesting case study in the immediate and obvious failure of such principles. We could use many of the founding fathers as evidence.

However, history is not on your side, nor on the side of libertopian ideals, thus, you want to dismiss them. It is rather convenient for you libertopian idealists. When you cannot explain something, you dismiss it. When you cannot argue against it, you obfuscate and then attack the person rather than the point.

That is the foundation of your belief system, denial of the obvious truth. That truth is that your system cannot exist in the real world because it ignores what is obvious on Jefferson.

The fallibility of man.

 

[acriticalcookie]

Libertarianism is too moderate. Minarchism in general is a moderate ideology.
We don't need the state. Develop a stateless, individualistic society based on voluntary, private interaction.

The state is a collectivist figment of the imagination.

 

[fskimospy]

Libertarianism is too moderate. Minarchism in general is a moderate ideology.
We don't need the state. Develop a stateless, individualistic society based on voluntary, private interaction.

The state is a collectivist figment of the imagination.

Let me know when you set that up. I'll be there ten minutes later to steal all your belongings.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Libertarianism is too moderate. Minarchism in general is a moderate ideology.
We don't need the state. Develop a stateless, individualistic society based on voluntary, private interaction.

The state is a collectivist figment of the imagination.

Hmmmmmm are you NoStateOfMind's sock puppet by chance?

 

[nehalem256]

Let me know when you set that up. I'll be there ten minutes later to steal all your belongings.

Followed by 10 minutes later you getting your ass kicked by acriticalcookie and his friends.

 

[Incorruptible]

No, but you think that because it was done in the beginning that that is the only way to do it in the future, apparently. You also seem to think that the way that it was done makes, and the people who did it, infallible. Neither situation is true.

Libertopian policies were found to be utter failures immediately, it is why they were starting to be abandoned during the first administration of this country and why they have gradually been abandoned over time.

A lot of what was called the "age of enlightenment" was nothing more than idealistic thinking that was based upon a small and insular world of the wealthy and privileged land owners who thought the world revolved around them. This is how most libertopians think.

Even Adam Smith acknowledged that the government had a place in stabilizing and regulating markets. People loved to quote the "invisible hand" but fail to acknowledge it only works in a perfect world.

Libertarian policies worked while socialism failed.

And libertopian? Clearly you're an idiot who doesn't believe in freedom.

 

[fskimospy]

Followed by 10 minutes later you getting your ass kicked by acriticalcookie and his friends.

Damn, you're right. Their decision to make a collective body to use violence on their behalf to enforce societal norms was really effective.

 

[nehalem256]

Damn, you're right. Their decision to make a collective body to use violence on their behalf to enforce societal norms was really effective.

Perhaps if you try explaining that they formed a "government" they will rethink their decision to beat you

 

[Anarchist420]

People need to understand that no one ideology can be best in all situations for even one single society at one particular point of time. It isn't that libertarianism is too rational, it's simply that it cannot fit every situation. The optimum solution for Bernie Madoff or the Tennessee Copper Company may well be disastrous for the rest of us, and the damage can be wide-spread with little recompense.

but moderation never stays moderate. it almost always gets worse because compomises (i.e., moderation) are broken because no one remains satisfied with 50% forever.

the constitution was a pure compomise between two elite classes while leaving the vast libertarian majority out... things went the way of the planter elite at first, but then that violently came to an end and things went sharply far-right mercantilist. since the progressive era, the elite have been fighting each other and few other people are happy. the only two things that 2 large factions of americans have been slightly happy with overall since 12/7/41 are :
1. the warfare State... uniting against an enemy appointed by the American State.
2. the welfare state

 

[BoberFett]

Buy that man a beer. A libertarian who wants to re-write the corporate charter laws.

Its like seeing an albino deer in the wild.

I'm all for corporations, but limited liability is a shield for some truly abhorrent behavior. Why shouldn't shareholders have risk beyond their investment? If you're making money from a company's activities, shouldn't you be responsible for cleaning up after them?

 

[BoberFett]

Yeah, the "age of enlightenment" I was speaking of was encapsulated in the timeframe of the "enlightened" thomas jefferson and his like, which is what we were talking about, you know, the "founding" of America? That would imply a specific time period, no? Further, I even spoke of the failure of such "enlightened" people (libertopians) to realize that their idealistic failures were exemplified by slavery.

But I'll excuse your lack of reading skills and/or comprehension. Do try to keep up next time.

That's ignorant and you know it.

Slavery is coersion,, something libertarians believe is one of the fundamental things government is responsible for preventing.

Claiming that slavery is the result of libertarian thinking is about as intelligent as claiming Democrats are all pinko commies. Don't stoop to that level.

Edit: Nevermind, too late. LegendKiller already jumped into the shallow end head first and started with his idiotic ranting...

 

[LegendKiller]

Libertarian policies worked while socialism failed.

And libertopian? Clearly you're an idiot who doesn't believe in freedom.

Yes, the same freedom that existed for an entire race on the "founding" principles (according to you) of this country.

 

[LegendKiller]

That's ignorant and you know it.

Slavery is coersion,, something libertarians believe is one of the fundamental things government is responsible for preventing.

Claiming that slavery is the result of libertarian thinking is about as intelligent as claiming Democrats are all pinko commies. Don't stoop to that level.

Edit: Nevermind, too late. LegendKiller already jumped into the shallow end head first and started with his idiotic ranting...

Ohhh bullshit. The same moronic thinking that Jefferson had (the slave owners would just stop doing it) is the same thinking libertopian leaning morons like Rand Paul adopt, that we should overturn discrimination laws and let the "free market" do what they want.

 

[Incorruptible]

Yes, the same freedom that existed for an entire race on the "founding" principles (according to you) of this country.

Their freedom was being violated by the government you moron.

Socialism is force and doesn't work. It takes a despicable person to advocate for that system. Just STFU libtard.