Is Law school worth it? (lawyers please)

[endervalentine]

There is HUMONGOUS money that you can make in law BUT, you have to:

- Get into a top 5 school and graduate near the top of your class
- Get a job at a top big law firm
- Work YOUR ASS OFF as an associate for 8-10 years
- Make partner and continue to work your ass off

My brother in law followed this pattern and pulled in 600K his first year as an associate, but he seems to be working almost all the time.

wow, seriously, 600k?!

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Going to law school, med school, business school, grad school, whatever because you can't think of something better to do is the worst reason to keep going to school after you get your BA/BS.

If you can see yourself doing something -anything- other than law for the rest of your life, do not go to law school. At least not yet.

 

[sjwaste]

wow, seriously, 600k?!

It's unlikely. A first year big law associate (AmLaw/Vault 100 or so) takes in 160k + anywhere from 0-30k as a bonus. This is assuming a major market (NY, DC, SF, and a few others). It's mostly lock step among "peer" firms.

Even Wachtell's best years were only paying 1st years 320k with bonus. And that's the not-even-close most prestigious firm.

600k would be doable, though, just not at a big firm. It'd have to be as a PI solo, or at a smaller PI shop where a first year would actually handle a full case. And there'd have to be a HUGE jury award, since the firm is taking about 1/3 and the associate even less.

I won't talk anyone out of going into law, but I will do my best to talk someone out of it if their prime reason is ambivalence. Like med school, but for a different reason, you have to be 100% set on this before you go. Med students b/c once you're in, it's a 7-10 year run. Law because you're leaving with huge debt with far slimmer prospects of a job that will actually pay it off than you'd think.

 

[RKS]

Not seeing a lot of responses from the ATOT bar association in this thread. Hopefully some of the others chime in.

A lot of you are sharing opinions on why you chose not to go to law school, and that's good perspective, though. The #1 worst reason to do it is because your undergraduate degree makes you otherwise unemployable. It will be far cheaper to stay an extra year in undergrad and get a bachelors that actually pays, especially if your university has a business school. Do that instead.

If you insist on going the law route, read my post in this thread. It's first hand.

My former career was in the IT field. I had a MIS undergrad and was working as a Oracle programmer. I was making descent money but was miserable. I chose law because I eventually wanted to be my own boss. I'm at a small PI firm with a caseload of about 100-125 clients and make good money but I don't have full autonomy. Eventually I'll hang my own shingle but at least my current job does not require me to stare at a monitor for 9 hours/day; but there are days where I wish for a mindless job like a Walmart greeter.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Describe what you mean by "worth it."

 

[sjwaste]

My former career was in the IT field. I had a MIS undergrad and was working as a Oracle programmer. I was making descent money but was miserable. I chose law because I eventually wanted to be my own boss. I'm at a small PI firm with a caseload of about 100-125 clients and make good money but I don't have full autonomy. Eventually I'll hang my own shingle but at least my current job does not require me to stare at a monitor for 9 hours/day; but there are days where I wish for a mindless job like a Walmart greeter.

Sounds like you and I have similar backgrounds. I'm with the govt now, which has been really good for legal training and development, since there's money in the budget for us to go to conferences, etc. The actual subject matter I deal with is kind of boring, but I'm still 1000% happier than when I was an IT consultant.

And I work 40 hours a week, some of it from home, with no pressure to bill hours. Not to mention getting to use my 4 weeks of vacation.

PI seems pretty interesting. Does your firm carry its cases through trial? That seems like it'd be great experience, but a lot of smaller PI shops here bring in outside counsel if it has to go to trial - that kind of turned me off of that.

 

[RKS]

Sounds like you and I have similar backgrounds. I'm with the govt now, which has been really good for legal training and development, since there's money in the budget for us to go to conferences, etc. The actual subject matter I deal with is kind of boring, but I'm still 1000% happier than when I was an IT consultant.

And I work 40 hours a week, some of it from home, with no pressure to bill hours. Not to mention getting to use my 4 weeks of vacation.

PI seems pretty interesting. Does your firm carry its cases through trial? That seems like it'd be great experience, but a lot of smaller PI shops here bring in outside counsel if it has to go to trial - that kind of turned me off of that.

We have about 15 attorneys and we don't outsource trial work. We have collaborated with niche firms when we have a complicated (and expensive) med mal claim but that is very rare. I've had to figure out complaints, various motions, depositions, interrogatories, attend mediations, etc. so it has been a great learning experience. Everyday is like a new adventure since we take just about anything that walks in. I've had some very strange/entertaining cases and clients.

As an average, out of the 100 cases, I will drop about 20 because I don't see a legit claim. I will settle 70, and file 10 suits. Out of those 10 maybe one will actually get to a jury but most don't make it past mediation primarily because the client wants a resolution. In the past 2 years I have not tried a case.

 

[JS80]

I have a couple of friends that went to a top law school and got offers from top law firm and got their offers rescinded.

Another one same, but got paid by the firm to not work for a year for $80k. He's starting next week.

Then the rest of my lawyer friends not top law most are unemployed, two work for a law firm, the rest are not even doing law work.

 

[Jeeebus]

I think I gave my input on this in the huge thread. Too busy tonight to rehash thoughts.

 

[JS80]

Great thread http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/742932/

 

[Corporate Thug]

There is HUMONGOUS money that you can make in law BUT, you have to:

- Get into a top 5 school and graduate near the top of your class
- Get a job at a top big law firm
- Work YOUR ASS OFF as an associate for 8-10 years
- Make partner and continue to work your ass off

My brother in law followed this pattern and pulled in 600K his first year as an associate, but he seems to be working almost all the time.

600K as a first year associate? Highly doubt it. The best paying firms pay $185,000/yr for first years, and that is the TOP firms.

 

[SandEagle]

i know lawyers making 35K a year. sucks balls.

btw, what value do you see in paying for a liberal arts degree? switch now to something more useful.

 

[Corporate Thug]

i know lawyers making 35K a year. sucks balls.

btw, what value do you see in paying for a liberal arts degree? switch now to something more useful.

new attorney's from shitty schools?

 

[Corporate Thug]

It's unlikely. A first year big law associate (AmLaw/Vault 100 or so) takes in 160k + anywhere from 0-30k as a bonus. This is assuming a major market (NY, DC, SF, and a few others). It's mostly lock step among "peer" firms.

Even Wachtell's best years were only paying 1st years 320k with bonus. And that's the not-even-close most prestigious firm.

600k would be doable, though, just not at a big firm. It'd have to be as a PI solo, or at a smaller PI shop where a first year would actually handle a full case. And there'd have to be a HUGE jury award, since the firm is taking about 1/3 and the associate even less.

I won't talk anyone out of going into law, but I will do my best to talk someone out of it if their prime reason is ambivalence. Like med school, but for a different reason, you have to be 100% set on this before you go. Med students b/c once you're in, it's a 7-10 year run. Law because you're leaving with huge debt with far slimmer prospects of a job that will actually pay it off than you'd think.

Yes, this can only be true if his life was a John Grisham novel. First year associate manages to take on and defeat multi billion dollar insurance company for a multi million dollar verdict. I don't think a first year even knows what the hell a jury instruction is.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Like most of the other posters, I generally do not recommend going to law school. As SJwaste explained, the job market for lawyers is supersaturated, and has been that way for many years. Sure, there are limited exceptions (e.g., patent law, tax, certain types of litigation), but as a whole the job market sucks.

Also, whenever someone tells me that they are interested in going to law school, my first question is always "why?" Often, the answer is "because I want to be an attorney." My reply to that answer is the same as my first question, i.e., "WHY?" Strangely, I have found over the years that most prospective law students have no idea "why" they want to become an attorney. Those who think they do are often operating under a strong misunderstanding of just what a lawyer "does" each and every day, and what salary the average lawyer makes. When those students ultimately decide to attend law school, they are making a very uninformed decision.

Perhaps an analogy will help. Say you are going to buy a used car. A really expensive one. You know, a 100k+ Maserati. The advertisement for the car in the paper looks great. It is the color you want. The owner says that the car attracts women like crazy, and there are videos all over the internet depicting similar car owners racing around town living the good life. Question, would you buy that car sight unseen? Hell no you wouldn't. Because you know that a car is an asset. One that's primary value is to take you from A to B without stopping at point C in between. Thus, to make an informed decision, you need to know the condition of certain elements of the car (i.e., condition of the engine, body, accident history, etc.). And if the secondary characteristics are important to you, you take the car for a test drive to see if it really does have that wooing effect on women. In a short phrase, you investigate the car fully before you buy.

In many ways, law school is no different than that really expensive used car. Many law schools promise the world when it comes to jobs, but the reality is few deliver on that promise. For example, many law schools post stats indicating the percentage of students who are employed after graduation. Employed doing what you ask? Who knows? In my experience, relatively few schools post precisely what their past students are doing (well, except for the "exceptional" students who are employed by top firms).

In sum, my advice is that you seriously consider "why" you want to become a lawyer. And before you make a decision to go to law school, spend some time "observing" what real lawyers do on a day to day basis. If you still want to be a lawyer after you do your homework, by all means go for it. But if not, you can thank me later for saving you from a small mountain of debt.

Finally, one important thing you should consider is that *no* law schools in the U.S. actually teach you to be a lawyer. That's right. NONE OF THEM. Harvard? Nope. Yale? Not to my understanding. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Rather, law school teaches you to "think" like a lawyer. A very useful skill. One that is important in many contexts (including the practice of law and others). But it won't help you one bit with understanding how a real legal practice works.

Best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

Sox

P.S.: In the interest of full disclosure, I am a patent attorney and an adjunct professor of law.

 

[soulcougher73]

You'd make more money getting a welding certificate 😛 Maybe become and underwater welder. Big money in that. My point im trying to make is college and these fancy degrees dont always lead to riches as i think most think they do. They can, but its not the norm.

 

[dug777]

Move to Western Australia and you could make 100k plus as a cleaner on minesites up North.

It's no Herbert Hoover path, but there's gold in them hills 😉

12 hour shifts and FIFO mean it's not a piece of cake, but still it's great coin (Why do you thing our armed forces are by far and away the best paid in the world? You can thank China and the mining boom. Why would you take 50-70k working on vehicles and getting shot at in Afghanistan when you could be earning 150k in the Pilbara or Kalgoorlie? 😉)

 

[ussfletcher]

Move to Western Australia and you could make 100k plus as a cleaner on minesites up North.

It's no Herbert Hoover path, but there's gold in them hills 😉

12 hour shifts and FIFO mean it's not a piece of cake, but still it's great coin (Why do you thing our armed forces are by far and away the best paid in the world? You can thank China and the mining boom. Why would you take 50-70k working on vehicles and getting shot at in Afghanistan when you could be earning 150k in the Pilbara or Kalgoorlie? 😉)

I don't understand anything in your post.

 

[dug777]

I don't understand anything in your post.

:ninja:

Simplified:

If you want to earn not much less than six figures in USD, it is commonly understood that you can do that on minesites in Western Australia (the uninhabited third of the continent) for extremely menial tasks, like cleaning.

I don't believe you will end up as US President (like President Hoover, who was a manager at a major mine in Kalgoorlie) as a result.

The work shifts are long (I understand in the Gulf they do 3x8hour shifts? Wusses 😉) at 12 hours.

You usually do some variation of X(2-4?) weeks on the job, followed by a week or two back home (Fly-in/Fly-out) which is extremely disruptive to your home life.

Finally, competition for mechanics/fitters/riggers etc means that our armed forces have to pay well to attempt to retain staff in the face of this alternative employment.

Better? 😉

 

[Marinski]

my wife just graduated from law school. Shes said more than a few times that if she had it to do all over again she wouldnt have went to law school. She works at a corporate law firm now as a clerk while waiting for bar results. But, that may only be a temporary position. The job outlook is bleak, so unless they decide to keep her on she may be without a job in a few months. She already talks about going back to her old bartending gig. Imagine that, you have 8 years of school and a law degree and youre a baartender with $100,000 in debts. Also, she went to tier 2 and graduated in top third of class.

 

[Blackjack200]

OP, I know you're looking for lawyer perspectives and I don't mean to clog the thread as a non-lawyer, but I did seriously consider going myself (studied for and scheduled an LSAT, researched schools.) so I just wanted to share a couple of points that had a big impact on my decision:

1. Someone on a message board pointed out that almost everyone that doesn't go to a T-14 school plans on graduating at the top of their class. So the other T-1 and T-2 schools can actually be more competitive than the T-14. Everyone else in your class will know the deal, and everyone will be trying to outwork each other. This gave me an awful lot of pause. I've always been able to pull A's as long as I put the effort in, but it seems like getting to the top of a law school class might be a pretty difficult thing to do.

2. Have you considered other professional schools? You don't need a bio (or even science!) major to go into Medical school or Pharmacy school, and you don't need a business major to get an MBA. Don't get me wrong, they all have their downsides too, but I would look carefully at each option.

 

[sjwaste]

P.S.: In the interest of full disclosure, I am a patent attorney and an adjunct professor of law.

Get out of your ivory tower, grandpa.

Seriously though, your points are 100% correct. I hope anyone considering law school will read this thread and notice that the attorney responses would mostly suggest steering clear.

It's worth a shot, maybe, to take the LSAT and apply to a T14 school. Beyond that, though, its best to resist the urge. I looked at public school tuition recently, and even that's getting out of hand. I don't even know that I'd recommend that anymore.

But I wouldn't even consider the above until you know for sure that you want to be a lawyer. I'm talking certainty. The kind of certainty brought about by working as a paralegal or legal assistant at a law firm, full time, for a year. Most people that do it decide not to go to law school.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Get out of your ivory tower, grandpa.

Seriously though, your points are 100% correct. I hope anyone considering law school will read this thread and notice that the attorney responses would mostly suggest steering clear.

It's worth a shot, maybe, to take the LSAT and apply to a T14 school. Beyond that, though, its best to resist the urge. I looked at public school tuition recently, and even that's getting out of hand. I don't even know that I'd recommend that anymore.

But I wouldn't even consider the above until you know for sure that you want to be a lawyer. I'm talking certainty. The kind of certainty brought about by working as a paralegal or legal assistant at a law firm, full time, for a year. Most people that do it decide not to go to law school.

IMO it's nothing you just take a shot at. It's something you either strive for and don't care. I went to Berkeley, and if you see the kids gearing up for a top tier law school or biz school or medical school or engineering PhD, there are tons of Asian kids that work their asses off. If you're not prepared to compete against them forget any of those fields. Well especially law. As a doctor you would still do fine in a lower tier med school.

 

[sjwaste]

IMO it's nothing you just take a shot at. It's something you either strive for and don't care. I went to Berkeley, and if you see the kids gearing up for a top tier law school or biz school or medical school or engineering PhD, there are tons of Asian kids that work their asses off. If you're not prepared to compete against them forget any of those fields. Well especially law. As a doctor you would still do fine in a lower tier med school.

Some people that have prepared themselves extensively and are set on going will not necessarily get into a T14. It's worth a shot at applying if you really want to go, because most people coming out of T14s are still very employable. The "shot" I'm referring to is taking your 3.8 GPA and ~170 LSAT and applying to one of those schools.

Did you go to Berkeley for law, or something else? It's a fine law school. 3.8 and 170 might get you in, depending on demographic factors.

 

[brainhulk]

My AP chem teacher in high school told us on our last day, "I wish everybody well in the future in whatever you, unless you become a lawyer. Then I will curse you until you rot in hell because they r the scum of the earth!"

I guess he was butt hurt by some lawsuit.

Anyways a lot of people will say that in vain. That is until they are waist deep in shit.