Is it weird that i'm an atheist that's pro-religion?

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The funny thing is, there's so much arrogance in a statement from an atheist in saying that "some people aren't strong enough to live life without faith, so let them be." It's a snide, unsubtle way of saying that religious people are weak and that if they were only strong and smart enough, they would become atheists.

You think its easy for someone who believes in an omniscient god who rewards people for leading good lives to suddenly switch and start believing none of that exists?

Yes, I've done it, and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Maybe, maybe not. You can';t prove that if there wasn't religion, there would have been as many wars. That is a blatant assumption. Whereas, my statement is based on history.

I gave you a reasoned example of why i feel that way, though. It's not as if im pulling it out of my ass. If you want to refute it then tell me where my logic is going wrong in that first post.

Your logic is wrong because itis an assumption being used as proof.

Well hell if this is the kind of argument you want, then the opposite is also true. You can't assume religion is the cause of more war than there would otherwise be without seeing a world without religion.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The funny thing is, there's so much arrogance in a statement from an atheist in saying that "some people aren't strong enough to live life without faith, so let them be." It's a snide, unsubtle way of saying that religious people are weak and that if they were only strong and smart enough, they would become atheists.

You think its easy for someone who believes in an omniscient god who rewards people for leading good lives to suddenly switch and start believing none of that exists?

Yes, I've done it, and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

So... thats my point. It wasn't easy. Not everyone is capable of it. Just like im not capable of becoming a theist.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The funny thing is, there's so much arrogance in a statement from an atheist in saying that "some people aren't strong enough to live life without faith, so let them be." It's a snide, unsubtle way of saying that religious people are weak and that if they were only strong and smart enough, they would become atheists.

You think its easy for someone who believes in an omniscient god who rewards people for leading good lives to suddenly switch and start believing none of that exists?

Yes, I've done it, and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

So... thats my point. It wasn't easy. Not everyone is capable of it. Just like im not capable of becoming a theist.

I totally disagree in Orsorum's response. I find the concept of oblivion after death much more comforting than any type of afterlife, the quality of which is to be determined by a whimsical diety. There is a certainty in the prospect of eternal rest.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Vic
I totally disagree in Orsorum's response. I find the concept of oblivion after death much more comforting than any type of afterlife, the quality of which is to be determined by a whimsical diety. There is a certainty in the prospect of eternal rest.

Well, i dont know if its considered "rest" when you cease to exist.

Regardless, i know most people dont find the thought of oblivion comforting. 😛

 

[ppdes]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
religion still has a place in our world ... maybe we'll evolve past it

Lets assume that religious inclination does have a genetic component. Wouldn't evolutionary pressure be for producing more religious inclination rather than less?

We have many religions with commands like "be fruitful and multiply" and not wasting seed and whatnot. Religious communities also often act as an additional source of social and financial support for their followers. It seems like the religious would generally have more offspring and be more likely to survive hard times.

Of course if these religiously inclined people were born in a different environment where the religion they were exposed to was different, it might become an evolutionary disadvantage. Almost no one chooses their religion after all, they just follow whatever their parents did. Genetics probably can't favor a particular religion. You can breed animals to be more docile and trainable, but they still need to be trained the specific tricks.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: ppdes
Lets assume that religious inclination does have a genetic component. Wouldn't evolutionary pressure be for producing more religious inclination rather than less?

We have many religions with commands like "be fruitful and multiply" and not wasting seed and whatnot. Religious communities also often act as an additional source of social and financial support for their followers. It seems like the religious would generally have more offspring and be more likely to survive hard times.

Of course if these religiously inclined people were born in a different environment where the religion they were exposed to was different, it might become an evolutionary disadvantage. Almost no one chooses their religion after all, they just follow whatever their parents did. Genetics probably can't favor a particular religion. You can breed animals to be more docile and trainable, but they still need to be trained the specific tricks.

Bingo. A lot of religious texts have requirements that the rest of us might find odd, like not eating pig. But not eating pig because its dirty is actually true - if you lived 1000 years ago. Eating pig back then was risky business because of the spread of trichinosis, today modern sanitary standards make such caution unwarranted. But my point is that religion protects its adherents, whereas a godless person has no such protection beyond their own intelligence.

Hell, why haven't there been large groups of atheists in the past? I should really start a new thread for this, but one tidbit: National Geographic had an article about a year ago on longevity. They looked at samples from each of the longest-lived peoples on earth... from Japan, Sicily, etc. What was one of the only common traits between all of them? A strong belief in god. Not just "im a catholic" kind of faith, but a strong, thank-god-in-every-sentence kind of faith.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Maybe, maybe not. You can';t prove that if there wasn't religion, there would have been as many wars. That is a blatant assumption. Whereas, my statement is based on history.

I gave you a reasoned example of why i feel that way, though. It's not as if im pulling it out of my ass. If you want to refute it then tell me where my logic is going wrong in that first post.

Your logic is wrong because itis an assumption being used as proof.

Well hell if this is the kind of argument you want, then the opposite is also true. You can't assume religion is the cause of more war than there would otherwise be without seeing a world without religion.

Umm, it is a fact that religion has caused most wars. It isn't an assumption. You're argument is similarto arguing that you can't prove that smoking causes lung cancer because we don't know if people would have gotten the cancer without smoking!

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum
The funny thing is, there's so much arrogance in a statement from an atheist in saying that "some people aren't strong enough to live life without faith, so let them be." It's a snide, unsubtle way of saying that religious people are weak and that if they were only strong and smart enough, they would become atheists.

You think its easy for someone who believes in an omniscient god who rewards people for leading good lives to suddenly switch and start believing none of that exists?

Yes, I've done it, and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

So... thats my point. It wasn't easy. Not everyone is capable of it. Just like im not capable of becoming a theist.

Why aren't you capable of being a theist?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Vic
I totally disagree in Orsorum's response. I find the concept of oblivion after death much more comforting than any type of afterlife, the quality of which is to be determined by a whimsical diety. There is a certainty in the prospect of eternal rest.

I'm not an atheist, I'm just agnostic. I have a hard time saying with confidence what I think death is like, because I have not experienced it. I don't find the prospect of death all that frightening, it was the idea of stepping away from what I thought to be true, what I wanted to be true, because I knew that I didn't believe it in my heart of hearts.

If you are at peace with your decision, then good. I am envious of your confidence.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: fatpat268
Nope, I don't envy religious people at all.

In fact some of these religious nutjobs really disgust me. Almost everything that is wrong with the US nowadays stems from religion, and it's quite sad actually.

So then we should allow murder, adultery (destruction of families), stealing (Great Idea), allow people to falsely accuse others, peep in to their neighbors window while his wife takes showers (covet), and what is wrong with Honoring your father and your mother? Dude you are so freaking ignorant. Your sense of morality must be naked men in San Francisco running around telling the world how proud they are while innocent children watch and ask their parents questions about what they see.

You should read this and state why you would be 100% opposed to this.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: fishface313
religion also causes such things as the Holocaust and 911...so as far as i'm concerned religious holy rollers can suck it!

so how exactly did religion fuel the holocaust?

It didn't.

Some say Oswald was working for the Soviets. Blaming the Holocaust on religion is like blaming Kennedy's assaination on National Pride. Should we suggest that Nations are a bad idea too? Ban Governments, then we can end wars!

:roll:

 

[animalia]

these kind of topics have been beaten to death. I wish to keep out

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: ntdz
I think it's strange. Look at what Islam has done to the Middle East. To me, it's done way more bad. How many wars have been fought over religion in the last 2,000 years?

How many wars have been fought for national pride or conquest? To me governments do more bad than good. (sarcasm)

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire

Originally posted by: ntdz
I think it's strange. Look at what Islam has done to the Middle East. To me, it's done way more bad. How many wars have been fought over religion in the last 2,000 years?

How many wars have been fought for national pride or conquest? To me governments do more bad than good. (sarcasm)

We should also ban money and sex too. Look at all the problems that has caused; there have been millions of murders over sex or money alone, way more than religion has ever caused. There is a reason why Jesus is called the Prince of Peace.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire

Originally posted by: fatpat268
Nope, I don't envy religious people at all.

In fact some of these religious nutjobs really disgust me. Almost everything that is wrong with the US nowadays stems from religion, and it's quite sad actually.

So then we should allow murder, adultery (destruction of families), stealing (Great Idea), allow people to falsely accuse others, peep in to their neighbors window while his wife takes showers (covet), and what is wrong with Honoring your father and your mother? Dude you are so freaking ignorant. Your sense of morality must be naked men in San Francisco running around telling the world how proud they are while innocent children watch and ask their parents questions about what they see.

You should read this and state why you would be 100% opposed to this.

Who ever said to allow men to ignore the basic fundaments of life? All of those ideals, dislike or murder adultery and stealing, were existant before the Ten Commandments. The ten commandments didn't make them. Religion only fortifies good behavior, and that is only sometimes.

The problem is the lack of adherance. I do not know any christian and follows the supposed teaching of Jesus. I respect the basic fundamentals of a lot of the preaching in the new testament, yet it is rarely followed.

People get all stuck up on the rules and regulations of religion, and forget the huministic inner principles. They get angry and hateful, against nonbelievers and even other sects of believers. Many seem to lack the ability to totally analyze and understand the reasoning behind their actions.

Religion can propel people to be good, and it is good in its ideal concept. However, too often it fails, casugin bickering, fighting, hatred, and arrogance or it is abused by a higher authority to twist the minds of the people.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
Why aren't you capable of being a theist?

Because my mind isnt capable of accepting something on faith alone. Hell, i wish i were a theist. Im not the happiest atheist in the world - id rather believe in god. Id like to believe in santa and superman, too, but i cant fool myself into believing something i know to be false. I dont mean that in an offensive way, thats just the way i see it.

I assume that theists are quite capable of believing in something on faith alone when their choice in the matter makes little difference in the "real world" beyond how they spend their free time (church vs. debating god on ATOT). 😉

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire
So then we should allow murder, adultery (destruction of families), stealing (Great Idea), allow people to falsely accuse others, peep in to their neighbors window while his wife takes showers (covet), and what is wrong with Honoring your father and your mother? Dude you are so freaking ignorant. Your sense of morality must be naked men in San Francisco running around telling the world how proud they are while innocent children watch and ask their parents questions about what they see.

You should read this and state why you would be 100% opposed to this.

Im not much of a fan of gays who flaunt themselves (or anyone who flaunts themself, for that matter) but if you explain to your kids that its just part of being human instead of something bad, they'll probably be better off for it.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Orsorum
Why aren't you capable of being a theist?

Because my mind isnt capable of accepting something on faith alone. Hell, i wish i were a theist. Im not the happiest atheist in the world - id rather believe in god. Id like to believe in santa and superman, too, but i cant fool myself into believing something i know to be false. I dont mean that in an offensive way, thats just the way i see it.

I assume that theists are quite capable of believing in something on faith alone when their choice in the matter makes little difference in the "real world" beyond how they spend their free time (church vs. debating god on ATOT). 😉

I think you should study history, the book of revelations, and current events (soon to be history). Then you might become a theist. Some of the prophecy from the book of revelations is playing out right now as we speak.

1. 
   Things listed in the Book of Revelations:
2. Drastic Changes in Weather. Warming, Drought, Deadly Floods (Katrina prehaps?), Rising Sea Levels.
3. The Resurection of the Jewish Israeli State (never ever in history has a nation died and been later been resurected)
4. Increase in global violence.
5. A deacrease in believers in religion (Sound Familier? Maybe you?)
6. I know I just forgot a bunch. But I will leave it blank for you to discover on your own.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire
So then we should allow murder, adultery (destruction of families), stealing (Great Idea), allow people to falsely accuse others, peep in to their neighbors window while his wife takes showers (covet), and what is wrong with Honoring your father and your mother? Dude you are so freaking ignorant. Your sense of morality must be naked men in San Francisco running around telling the world how proud they are while innocent children watch and ask their parents questions about what they see.

You should read this and state why you would be 100% opposed to this.

Im not much of a fan of gays who flaunt themselves (or anyone who flaunts themself, for that matter) but if you explain to your kids that its just part of being human instead of something bad, they'll probably be better off for it.

I'd rather not have kids exposed to that, it would have haunted my childhood if I had seen it. I also don't want my kids getting the idea that it's the thing for them to do when they get older.

 

[Mani]

Religion has no doubt done more good than harm for people overall but mostly because people by and large have lacked direction without a sense of something greater than themselves. It's also helped people explain the unexplainable by filling in the gaps in known science (universe creation, purpose of life).

When mankind is finally able to keep itself in line without the fear of hell or non-heaven, religion will no longer be a positive force in the world.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire

I think you should study history, the book of revelations, and current events (soon to be history). Then you might become a theist. Some of the prophecy from the book of revelations is playing out right now as we speak.

1. 
   Things listed in the Book of Revelations:
2. Drastic Changes in Weather. Warming, Drought, Deadly Floods (Katrina prehaps?), Rising Sea Levels.
3. The Resurection of the Jewish Israeli State (never ever in history has a nation died and been later been resurected)
4. Increase in global violence.
5. A deacrease in believers in religion (Sound Familier? Maybe you?)
6. I know I just forgot a bunch. But I will leave it blank for you to discover on your own.

Those are pretty generic prophecies, though. Look at nostradamus... people have been applying his predictions to their own time for centuries.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire

I'd rather not have kids exposed to that, it would have haunted my childhood if I had seen it. I also don't want my kids getting the idea that it's the thing for them to do when they get older.

Perhaps. I believe homosexuality is genetic, though. I can't imagine a 12 year old on the verge of adolescence choosing to like other boys, especially when kids that age are extremely prone to peer pressure.

 

[Troll4Hire]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire

I'd rather not have kids exposed to that, it would have haunted my childhood if I had seen it. I also don't want my kids getting the idea that it's the thing for them to do when they get older.

Perhaps. I believe homosexuality is genetic, though. I can't imagine a 12 year old on the verge of adolescence choosing to like other boys, especially when kids that age are extremely prone to peer pressure.

Most kids start experimenting at the age of 12. A lot of people became hooked on substances around 12 years of age.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Troll4Hire
Most kids start experimenting at the age of 12. A lot of people became hooked on substances around 12 years of age.

Well, you'd agree that alcoholism has a genetic aspect, right?