Is it time to trim our security blanket?

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MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. ... Is there no other way the world may live?

Why do 'conservatives' always treat a cut in military spending to mean that we are raising a white flag to the rest of the world? The military budget should not be sacrosanct in American politics. There are far more worthwhile endeavors for our tax dollars. Even from an economic ROI standpoint, military spending is not the best way to encourage growth. True R&D will enable us to both fight the next war in a much more effective manner and give commerce a real long-term shot in the arm. Investments in infrastructure (roads, rail, schools, public transit, etc) pay societal dividends for generations to come. You cannot say that about the military.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
How about we bring everyone home and focus all our efforts on fixing our own country instead of trying to bring 'peace, democracy, prosperity' to every country that happens to be the flavor of the week ?

I am so tired of the attitude that the USA should be the one to feed, heal, and police the world.

Amen, Charity begins at home
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
what would we do with all the unemployed soldiers, military contractors, suppliers, etc??? it's a jobs program...

hope it's us selling russia the weapons...


Ah, a $700B/yr stimulus program conservatives can support.
Tax cuts, bridges, trains and teachers? Boo
Bombs, bullets, boats, and Blackwater? Yea!


lol
 

juiio

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2000
1,433
4
81
Why is it the only thing libs can cut is the military?

Countries with the highest military expenditure for 2008
Rank Country Spending ($ b.) World Share (%)
1 United States 607.0 41.5
2 People's Republic of China 84.9 5.8
3 France 65.7 4.5
4 United Kingdom 65.3 4.5
5 Russia 58.6 4.0
6 Germany 46.8 3.2
7 Japan 46.3 3.2
8 Italy 40.6 2.8
9 Saudi Arabia 38.2 2.6
10 India 30.0 2.1

I'm no a liberal, but I'll answer anyways... maybe because we spend far more than is necessary? We spend over $600 billion on our military, and we have personnel deployed in roughly 150 countries.

By the way, that 600 billion doesn't even include either war, the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, the nuclear weapons program, etc...
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
We can just sit around and wait for the next terrorist attack. We dont need the military. Often it is the military using their helicopters to get aid to hard to reach areas like in Louisiana. Military members often also fight fires.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I'm talking about the US Military. $700B is a lot of money for the Pentagon. Russia is importing weapons and they become less of a threat as time goes on. China is our only serious big threat. I think we would be better served to focus our existential resources on them. The arab terrorists living in caves and fucking goats can be better managed by eliminating some of their most potent reasons for existing. One is the lack of democracy in the arab world. If we lean on our 'allies' more to be more democratic, we do not have to spend so much money killing their sons.

What do you think?

You really should have taken the red pill, Narmer. Our foreign policy for 30+ years has been the implementation of concise plan towards a clear goal. We are still going there. What you think is irrelevant.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
They are so much leaner, and more competitive than us.

It's like a Turkey, racing a Grouse.

-John
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
County/Local government union workers are often overpaid for their skill levels. Thus you get situations like this.

I wish that was the case at the county government where I worked. We get paid like ass compared to the private sector
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I never, ever would have agreed with the OP before I actually came to Afghanistan. We're spending trillions trying to make this place into America. To teach them to be like us. And it will never work. I look around and I see Afghan flag officers with huge offices in nice buildings, with couches, fresh flowers every day, satellite television, and computers with satellite internet access. They watch videos on the internet all day (they've never had internet access before.) If you push them to do work, they tell you that you should not rush, "that the cherry blossom blooms when it is ready." And why should they hurry? They have no tax system. We are guests in their country, and can only make recommendations. Every thing I see is paid for by you and I. Plus the officer's fat paychecks.

Then there's the office full of contractors that I work for. They're all "managers" (retired US flag officers) making $300k\yr. They are supposed to advise the military. Instead, they are in charge. The military personnel here are given busy work by the contractors, who make the big decisions. There is an O-6 (Colonel) in charge of the office, but he's a figurehead, with all the real decisions being made by the contractors. He'd never disagree with them, because then he wouldn't get his own $300k\yr contracting job when he retires in 3 months.

I'm sickened by the fleecing of the American taxpayer being perpetrated here.
 

dammitgibs

Senior member
Jan 31, 2009
477
0
0
Just remember bleeding heart liberals, if we stop being the world police then we stop being the world plumber, doctor, electrician, etc.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I never, ever would have agreed with the OP before I actually came to Afghanistan. We're spending trillions trying to make this place into America. To teach them to be like us. And it will never work. I look around and I see Afghan flag officers with huge offices in nice buildings, with couches, fresh flowers every day, satellite television, and computers with satellite internet access. They watch videos on the internet all day (they've never had internet access before.) If you push them to do work, they tell you that you should not rush, "that the cherry blossom blooms when it is ready." And why should they hurry? They have no tax system. We are guests in their country, and can only make recommendations. Every thing I see is paid for by you and I. Plus the officer's fat paychecks.

Then there's the office full of contractors that I work for. They're all "managers" (retired US flag officers) making $300k\yr. They are supposed to advise the military. Instead, they are in charge. The military personnel here are given busy work by the contractors, who make the big decisions. There is an O-6 (Colonel) in charge of the office, but he's a figurehead, with all the real decisions being made by the contractors. He'd never disagree with them, because then he wouldn't get his own $300k\yr contracting job when he retires in 3 months.

I'm sickened by the fleecing of the American taxpayer being perpetrated here.

This post is worth hundreds of many ignorant ones. Nice to see. Unfortunately, what effect?

I'll mention a military project (domestic). It was at a level to have a mention in a state of the union.

It had a lot of very hard working, skilled lower level military people who just worked their butts off. It also had politics over which contractors got the big bucks.

The military head of the project called the shots - for a little while until he resigned to work for one of the contractors he'd selected.

One little inside technique:

Military adopts a rule - may or may not come from Congress - to buy 'off the shelf' commercial products over custom on the win-win idea that instead of expensive custom-made product that leans towards needing tons of extra testing as a one-off, buying off the shelf both reduces the chances of 'trading favor' contracts for custom product and buys 'market proven' products, and it takes advantage of econmies of scale and quality testing etc. for other customers - while stimulating the private economy instead of spending the money for government-only product.

Sounds nice - but everyone knows the rules and the game. Products are kept available commercially that aren't market-viable just to qualify for the government purchases.

If needed, ways are found to get some commercial sales - lump them in for free bundled in contracts with other products, where they are never used.

The lead contractor on this - Northrup Grumman, with powerful connections and leverage to get away with pretty much anything.

A sales rep for a component in the project tried to sell directly to the military, cutting Northrup Grumman out of an addon fee - their loyal contacts informed them immediately and there was a new sales rep.

The worker bees for the military at low wages did great work in Alabama at a base, while the games were played in Washington.

And some wonder why I advocate for stronger barriers against the revolving door.

There are various qualities for getting ahead in such circles. One is being a talented worker. That gets you a more senior staff position - you get cashews instead of peanuts.

But another is the willingness to 'go along to get along', which might mean selling out whoever - especially the public interest - to benefit the powers that be. That can get you the filet mignon.

THere's a reason people who understand this passionately quote Eisenhower against the military corruption - not to mention the violence - while infuriated by simpler people who cheer all military while saluting the flag.

But it's hard to overcome the ignorance and tell the blissfully ignorant the problem, over all the propaganda to the contrary. Isn't to point out this corruption to want our enemies to conquer the country?

This is why the right-wing propaganda constantly harps on 'liberal enemies' no matter how ridiculous, they are creating something for the people to hate instead of the actual problems.

That darn Nancy Pelosi, she's the problem, her and her flying on military planes, the arrogance! That's the issue, not the billions going on unmentioned by the media.

And our troops - apparently like the quoted poster above - who are kids who naively sign up to be the worker bees for the system with wide-eyed ideas of 'proving themselves' and opportunity and patriotism.

They don't have much idea about why the US is supporting its corporate interests with military action. They're just told that doing as they're told without question and trusting the orders is patriotic.

No wonder they love the quotes about how they're protecting the freedom of the country with their sacrifice - that makes it seem justified, so they'll hang on to it.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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And our troops - apparently like the quoted poster above - who are kids who naively sign up to be the worker bees for the system with wide-eyed ideas of 'proving themselves' and opportunity and patriotism.

They don't have much idea about why the US is supporting its corporate interests with military action. They're just told that doing as they're told without question and trusting the orders is patriotic.

No wonder they love the quotes about how they're protecting the freedom of the country with their sacrifice - that makes it seem justified, so they'll hang on to it.

Wow, you actually had me agreeing with you until you proved yourself to be a total tool at the end. You're a military hating elitist that thinks only naive, young "kids" join the military, and that they then do what they're told without question because they're just "worker bees." Seriously, you're such a fucking tool.

I'm not a kid. I left a 6 figure a year job to join the Army, serve my country and come to the war that I supported politically. I feel that many parts of the nation building are being done improperly. I questioned, I fought, I was threatened with being removed from the country by a (powerful) civilian contractor. I know I have a much better chance of impacting things as long as I'm here, as opposed to being sent home.

But you should go to your local VFW and read your post out loud. I can't believe that people can think so lowly of those that would give their life for you and your freedom.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Wow, you actually had me agreeing with you until you proved yourself to be a total tool at the end. You're a military hating elitist that thinks only naive, young "kids" join the military, and that they then do what they're told without question because they're just "worker bees." Seriously, you're such a fucking tool.

I'm not a kid. I left a 6 figure a year job to join the Army, serve my country and come to the war that I supported politically. I feel that many parts of the nation building are being done improperly. I questioned, I fought, I was threatened with being removed from the country by a (powerful) civilian contractor. I know I have a much better chance of impacting things as long as I'm here, as opposed to being sent home.

But you should go to your local VFW and read your post out loud. I can't believe that people can think so lowly of those that would give their life for you and your freedom.

You misunderstood at least one thing in my post - I wasnot saying my any means that 'all' people fit that descrption. It's just one common type of situation. There are all kinds of people in the miliatry.

I don't mean workerbee to deingrate anyone - I guess it could be used insultingly, but the way I was using it means 'the underpaid people who do the hard work well, while the suits get so many of the benefits'.

Let's not kid oursevles, and note I do think our military is misused far more than many in the military might think. I think many of them are not always terribly well informed about how they're misused.

But that's not the objection you made, let's not disagree over a misunderstanding. You sound like you are making a huge and principled - whether I agree with the principles or not - sacrifice and effort.

I did write that as a generality rather than saying it's one group, which I correct now.

You did play the 'protect our freedoms' card, which I mentioned - and I've no doubt you are very sincere about that, you wouldn't do what you do if you weren't.

We should be able to talk about whether the use of your service is a good one or not without it being terribly insulting to you. Not every disagreement needs one side to get insulted.

I'm interested in more of your first-hand reporting of what you see - it's a lot of info I don't have. That includes what happened when you got threatened, what you think you can or can't improve, etc.

I rely on people who are there for all kinds of information - you see things we don't here, cutting through the pretty talk of the PR, whether it's correcting right-wing or left-wing or non-political myths.

How do you feel about your decision now?

I'll continue to comment on things I've seen - including the corruption of the military industry by the power and money to be obtained by some in the system, while good honest soldiers word hard well.

You are free to disagree, but I'd be surprised if you would disagree with much of that.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Wow, you actually had me agreeing with you until you proved yourself to be a total tool at the end. You're a military hating elitist that thinks only naive, young "kids" join the military, and that they then do what they're told without question because they're just "worker bees." Seriously, you're such a fucking tool.

I'm not a kid. I left a 6 figure a year job to join the Army, serve my country and come to the war that I supported politically. I feel that many parts of the nation building are being done improperly. I questioned, I fought, I was threatened with being removed from the country by a (powerful) civilian contractor. I know I have a much better chance of impacting things as long as I'm here, as opposed to being sent home.

But you should go to your local VFW and read your post out loud. I can't believe that people can think so lowly of those that would give their life for you and your freedom.

LOL

Man, Your story sure has changed alot. It only took me a couple minutes on search to confirm

*Like I said, I don't care. It would be much more convenient to me, politically and otherwise, for them all to be wiped out. *

*Well I don't really care if they all die, but if you want to let your heart bleed over it, Saddam was killing millions in much less humane ways than we do.*

*I agree. It won't be too far into the future when we unite with the secular Persians to exterminate Islam across the globe*

*When you have a pest, you don't relocate it. You exterminate it. The entire world has spent way too much time worrying, crying and screaming about a small group of people that no one wants, and the world would be better off without. Quit dilly dallying and wipe them out*

So now your there to *help* people?? lol
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
LOL

Man, Your story sure has changed alot. It only took me a couple minutes on search to confirm

*Like I said, I don't care. It would be much more convenient to me, politically and otherwise, for them all to be wiped out. *

*Well I don't really care if they all die, but if you want to let your heart bleed over it, Saddam was killing millions in much less humane ways than we do.*

*I agree. It won't be too far into the future when we unite with the secular Persians to exterminate Islam across the globe*

*When you have a pest, you don't relocate it. You exterminate it. The entire world has spent way too much time worrying, crying and screaming about a small group of people that no one wants, and the world would be better off without. Quit dilly dallying and wipe them out*

So now your there to *help* people?? lol

Seeing as how I don't recognize your name, I'm going to assume you're not too active here. I don't take P&N (or the internets) seriously, so most of my posting is tongue in cheek, meant to draw out the actual nut jobs that infest this place. I started off an ATOTer, and bring my ATOT attitude to P&N.

I assure you, I work daily in a building with more Afghans than Americans, I would love for them to raise a generation of Afghans that knew something other than war. That hasn't happened for a long, long time.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
I wish that was the case at the county government where I worked. We get paid like ass compared to the private sector

Do you work for the county gov't in a red state?
Is your county a red county compared to the remaining counties in your state?

Maybe that's why. :p
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Do you work for the county gov't in a red state?
Is your county a red county compared to the remaining counties in your state?

Maybe that's why. :p

No.

Did you look at the location right under my handle?
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Seeing as how I don't recognize your name, I'm going to assume you're not too active here. I don't take P&N (or the internets) seriously, so most of my posting is tongue in cheek, meant to draw out the actual nut jobs that infest this place. I started off an ATOTer, and bring my ATOT attitude to P&N.

I assure you, I work daily in a building with more Afghans than Americans, I would love for them to raise a generation of Afghans that knew something other than war. That hasn't happened for a long, long time.

Ah,.. Ok all your posts before were just made to draw out the nutjobs (yikes 19,000 thats incredible for someone who don't take the internets seriously)
I suppose that works.. the reason I remember alot of your posts is because I was sure you were one of the nutjobs.
You had me fooled for sure. To me you were the gay guy whose dad golfed with the mayor (of Houston?) every week and lived a couple of blocks from GWB. You were not that old, low 20's and had been involved in several shootings already. You loved your guns and could not/would not leave the house without one.The constant talk of having no problems with just wiping out every single muslim. You had invested heavily in .mil defense and were making a killing. You first started talking about joining the army so you could shoot the guns you couldn't on the streets of America. You signed up for Officer school in Artillery and now you've been retasked with nationbuilding?

Ya, I dunno, but this is the internet and there's a million stories. It is pretty hard to try and guess what is horseshit and what isn't.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Ah,.. Ok all your posts before were just made to draw out the nutjobs (yikes 19,000 thats incredible for someone who don't take the internets seriously)
I suppose that works.. the reason I remember alot of your posts is because I was sure you were one of the nutjobs.
You had me fooled for sure. To me you were the gay guy whose dad golfed with the mayor (of Houston?) every week and lived a couple of blocks from GWB. You were not that old, low 20's and had been involved in several shootings already. You loved your guns and could not/would not leave the house without one.The constant talk of having no problems with just wiping out every single muslim. You had invested heavily in .mil defense and were making a killing. You first started talking about joining the army so you could shoot the guns you couldn't on the streets of America. You signed up for Officer school in Artillery and now you've been retasked with nationbuilding?

Ya, I dunno, but this is the internet and there's a million stories. It is pretty hard to try and guess what is horseshit and what isn't.

We're Dallasites, not dirty, nasty Houstonites. IIRC GWB lived in the Prestonwood\Preston Hollow areas of Dallas. I grew up in the Park cities area, which isn't too terribly far away. Cheney still has a home in Highland Park, IIRC. My parents live in Colleyville now, and that's where my home is (though not my residence.) I was in my late 20s when I first joined AT. I do like firearms, and did carry constantly before I joined the Army. I never wanted to join the Army to shoot the weapons. You can shoot anything the Army has as a civilian. I didn't sign up for Artillery, it just sort of happened. And pretty much everyone has been "retasked" with nation building.