Is it Time to Deny White Men the Franchise?

[interchange]

Hehe, I was reading the posts without looking to see who wrote them and nearly fell over when I read, "I'm not knowledgeable enough to say for sure.....". Holy, fuck I thought, what kind of freak do we have here? Turns out it was just an old rarity I'd already run into, one who doesn't post often enough, in my also perhaps uninformed opinion.

I have a job, you know.

P.S. Don't tell them I'm not working at the moment. This is "administrative time".

 

[UNCjigga]

Since it is rather buried in the article and your quote, I will make sure everyone understands:
This article is on the South Africa edition of HuffPo and is talking about South Africa.

I hope there are other ways to address their race and class divides. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say for sure and can only comment in abstract.

But I do know that I would not really apply those thoughts to the US. South Africa is a nation with significantly more recent and systematized racial segregation, class and cultural divide, in a less stable nation situated in an unstable continent rife with volatile extremists in power (etc.).

Odd, I don't recall how many South African whites are responsible for the clusterfuck that is Jacob Zuma. Dude faces a vote of no confidence supported by many who were formerly in his own party, yet he still has apologists writing these puff pieces for him.

 

[Jaskalas]

For women and minorities, self interest typically means expanding rights and opportunities, not taking them away. To act as if they'd do the same thing (that is, screw everyone else) if the demographics were reversed is ludicrous -- at least in the US, those groups know what actual oppression is like and why it's important not to go back.

Meanwhile, there are actual people from that bloc arguing for an anti voting rights act.

 

[woolfe9998]

The linked proposal can't possibly be a serious one. She makes no suggestion whatsoever as to how it could be accomplished. She's just trying to make a point about the consequences of hundreds of years of unbroken rule by white men.

OTOH, this will be spammed throughout conservative media. Look at this authoritarian racist liberal who wants to deny white men the right to vote! I detest liberals who supply this kind of fodder to the right wing propaganda machine. What an idiot.

 

[Sunburn74]

It doesn't help that this also happens to be the same race that primarily did recordkeeping, and didn't shy away from destroying the records of those they conquered. This has skewed things significantly. If we had more data on the intra-tribal relationships from north/central/south america and africa, as well as prior to one of any of the major data destruction events that have taken place (library of alexandria, inquisition, etc) the numbers might look much different.

You're arguing that the race that performed the most (in amount and duration) conquering and subsequent destruction of native country historical records did not in actuality commit the most (in amount and duration and despicability) atrocities because we cannot account for and therefore compare the records lost in those smaller countries that succumbed to said conquering?

You're almost arguing that said smaller countries were potentially performing more atrocities and the invaders moved in and put a stop to it relatively speaking?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You're arguing that the race that performed the most (in amount and duration) conquering and subsequent destruction of native country historical records did not in actuality commit the most, the largest and profound atrocities because we cannot account for and therefore compare the records lost in those smaller countries that succumbed to said conquering?

You're almost arguing that said smaller countries were potentially performing more atrocities and the invaders moved in and put a stop to it?

Negative, I'm saying that there were probably at least a few ugly things that happened prior to the destruction of said records that we'll never know about. As far as we know, most goings-on in the americas were pretty small-scale until modern history, but no doubt there was plenty of wars, pillages, and the like going on in the Asias for which records got wiped out.

Just saying that it skews the numbers a bit, that's all.

 

[Sunburn74]

Negative, I'm saying that there were probably at least a few ugly things that happened prior to the destruction of said records that we'll never know about. As far as we know, most goings-on in the americas were pretty small-scale until modern history, but no doubt there was plenty of wars, pillages, and the like going on in the Asias for which records got wiped out.

Just saying that it skews the numbers a bit, that's all.

Skewing the numbers a bit is a somewhat of a gross understatement I would say.

Consider what Stalin did in just a few years compared to say all the atrocity committed on the african continent from the start of history.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Skewing the numbers a bit is a somewhat of a gross understatement I would say.

Consider what Stalin did in just a few years compared to say all the atrocity committed on the african continent from the start of history.

Well that's the whole point of what I'm saying. We don't know the entirety of atrocities committed on the African continent if it was never documented for us to know about. It's very unlikely that anything would surpass Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the like, but if we had more information it might not look quite so one-sided. It's just an incomplete picture, is all.

 

[senseamp]

We let a black man in the oval office.

He didn't solve any problems and made smart-ass remarks the whole time.
Fun.

If he didn't solve any problems why can't Republicans repeal Obamacare? It solved big enough problems for enough of even their own supporters that they can no longer do what they've been promising for 7 years.

 

[Moonbeam]

Negative, I'm saying that there were probably at least a few ugly things that happened prior to the destruction of said records that we'll never know about. As far as we know, most goings-on in the americas were pretty small-scale until modern history, but no doubt there was plenty of wars, pillages, and the like going on in the Asias for which records got wiped out.

Just saying that it skews the numbers a bit, that's all.

It's quite telling that you have no doubt about things you surmise but for which there are no records. From a few fossilized human bones that show tool marking, we created a race of savage cannibals when the facts are that one large game animal has more nutritional value that a cave full of humans. The wonderful thing about making up shit is that it always conforms to what you already believe.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It's quite telling that you have no doubt about things you surmise but for which there are no records. From a few fossilized human bones that show tool marking, we created a race of savage cannibals when the facts are that one large game animal has more nutritional value that a cave full of humans. The wonderful thing about making up shit is that it always conforms to what you already believe.

What? Jesus, I said there were likely fights between peoples that have escaped recorded history, which is logically true. Where did cannibalism come into play, and 'making up shit'?

 

[Moonbeam]

What? Jesus, I said there were likely fights between peoples that have escaped recorded history, which is logically true. Where did cannibalism come into play, and 'making up shit'?

Don't you Jesus me, young man, or I'll take a cane to your ass.

You said: Well that's the whole point of what I'm saying. We don't know the entirety of atrocities committed on the African continent if it was never documented for us to know about. It's very unlikely that anything would surpass Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the like, but if we had more information it might not look quite so one-sided. It's just an incomplete picture, is all.

You surmise all that under the logical fact that it's an incomplete picture. What you do with incomplete pictures is not surmise anything but that they are incomplete. OTHERRWISE, you will find yourself recommending cannibal, stew on the pretext that a few markings on old bones implies were all cannibals at heart. Stop with with the loose thinking that the process of making associations is the same thing as rational thinking. You will always associate in a direction you want to go. Stop with the Ready Fire Aim!

 

[Amused]

Yep. The backlash effect is in full force in South Africa as the ANC slowly loses control and is now going full Mugabe (Zimbabwe).

Note she blames the white man for the DA (Democratic Alliance) victories in the Western Cape. Sorry, wrong. The DA is a black majority rainbow party that stands in opposition to the ANCs one party corruption and crony capitalism.

This is not unique there, as just a few months ago, Cape Town students were holding a "Science Must Fall" protest that claimed they were slaves to the "white man's science."

This is a backlash case where the victims end up trying to cut off their own noses to spite their faces.

I understand where they are coming from, but they are being irrational and foolish and letting hate take over. Something Mandela strove very hard to NOT allow happen.

Furthermore, this appears to be a feminist activist, and I highly doubt she is even in SA even though her brand new Twitter page says she is. I have a suspicion, given her utter ignorance of the DA vs the ANC that she is an American who has little to no knowledge of SA politics.

 

[Amused]

BTW, my Fiancee is South African, and I split my time between Los Angeles and Cape Town.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Don't you Jesus me, young man, or I'll take a cane to your ass.

You said: Well that's the whole point of what I'm saying. We don't know the entirety of atrocities committed on the African continent if it was never documented for us to know about. It's very unlikely that anything would surpass Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the like, but if we had more information it might not look quite so one-sided. It's just an incomplete picture, is all.

You surmise all that under the logical fact that it's an incomplete picture. What you do with incomplete pictures is not surmise anything but that they are incomplete. OTHERRWISE, you will find yourself recommending cannibal, stew on the pretext that a few markings on old bones implies were all cannibals at heart. Stop with with the loose thinking that the process of making associations is the same thing as rational thinking. You will always associate in a direction you want to go. Stop with the Ready Fire Aim!

So then you recommend we make zero theories about anything we cannot see with our own eyes? Simply live in the dark until someone enlightens us?

Tell me, which theory has more reasonable likelyhood, given what we know about human nature, and pre-industrial civilizations: a) there were statistically meaningful unrecorded conflicts in prerecorded Asiatic, American, and African cultures, or b) there were no statistically meaningful unrecorded conflicts in prerecorded Asiatic, American, and African cultures

 

[woolfe9998]

Yep. The backlash effect is in full force in South Africa as the ANC slowly loses control and is now going full Mugabe (Zimbabwe).

Note she blames the white man for the DA (Democratic Alliance) victories in the Western Cape. Sorry, wrong. The DA is a black majority rainbow party that stands in opposition to the ANCs one party corruption and crony capitalism.

This is not unique there, as just a few months ago, Cape Town students were holding a "Science Must Fall" protest that claimed they were slaves to the "white man's science."

This is a backlash case where the victims end up trying to cut off their own noses to spite their faces.

I understand where they are coming from, but they are being irrational and foolish and letting hate take over. Something Mandela strove very hard to NOT allow happen.

Wow, that's some scary regressive shit right there. Science isn't about one's cultural perspective. There is no western science or African science. There is only science.

 

[Amused]

Wow, that's some scary regressive shit right there. Science isn't about one's cultural perspective. There is no western science or African science. There is only science.

But that is exactly how it would appear to someone ignorant of science and full of racial and cultural animosity. You have to understand where they're coming from.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

But that is exactly how it would appear to someone ignorant of science and full of racial and cultural animosity. You have to understand where they're coming from.

Reminds me of 'German Science' vs 'Jewish Science' back in WW2.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The short answer: no.

The long answer: no, but I can understand why the writer would argue this way, especially in South Africa. Many white men have this bad habit of voting for leaders and policies that they know will hurt women and minorities. Either it's intentional (due to bigotry or an FYGM attitude), or they're willing to overlook those hurtful policies to get the ones they want.

I wish the article hadn't been written. Not because I don't think it has some valid points, but because the hyperbolic premise is going to feed into the wet dream fantasies of every white guy who pretends he's oppressed simply because he's no longer the center of the cultural universe.

You don't seem racist

 

[Amused]

Reminds me of 'German Science' vs 'Jewish Science' back in WW2.

Yes, but in this case the proper perspective would be, "is it ethical to use and take advantage of the finding of illegal, inhuman scientific experiments carried out by the Nazis?" At least, that is the cultural perspective they have. They had a unique culture all their own and ever since colonialism, their culture has NOT been their own.

Are they being ignorant and irrational? Yes. But you have to walk a mile in their shoes to understand where they are coming from. And simply labeling them as irrational or stupid or even hateful will achieve nothing.

As in all things, one must be VERY mindful that simply throwing facts and insults at a "true believer" who is fully emotionally invested only results in a strong backlash effect.

 

[woolfe9998]

But that is exactly how it would appear to someone ignorant of science and full of racial and cultural animosity. You have to understand where they're coming from.

We have plenty of science denial going on in this country right now, so I understand the motive. This is different mainly in the sense that it is made explicit, which I'm not used to. Here in the US partisans and religious people will dismiss scientific theories that don't comport with their views, while accepting others, and never explicitly claiming to reject science. It was jarring to hear someone flat out admit it.

 

[Amused]

We have plenty of science denial going on in this country right now, so I understand the motive. This is different mainly in the sense that it is made explicit, which I'm not used to. Here in the US partisans and religious people will dismiss scientific theories that don't comport with their views, while accepting others, and never explicitly claiming to reject science. It was jarring to hear someone flat out admit it.

Yes, but she is also trolling to start a conversation. Not she doesn't really believe it as the first thing she does after bashing science is pick up a tablet and browse to something on it.

Look, they are culturally frustrated and marginalized and had their own culture stolen from them. Rejection of knowledge from one's oppressor as somehow tainted is not a new thing.

 

[Boris Morozov]

I find it amusing how minorities are now attempting to band together against white people. self hating white people can't stop instilling the mindset that the system is rigged against them, when that is not true at all. Minorities themselves do not even get along with each other. Lol.

As for South Africa, I do think it's time white people left. Even with the help of colonialism Africa is a complete and utter failure. Let the black people have SA so they can run it into the ground just like every other African country.

 

[Amused]

I find it amusing how minorities are now attempting to band together against white people. self hating white people can't stop instilling the mindset that the system is rigged against them, when that is not true at all. Minorities themselves do not even get along with each other. Lol.

As for South Africa, I do think it's time white people left. Even with the help of colonialism Africa is a complete and utter failure. Let the black people have SA so they can run it into the ground just like every other African country.

Your ignorance is astounding. Simply astounding.

 

[Boris Morozov]

Your ignorance is astounding. Simply astounding.

Ignorance on what? Africa's success will probably be due to China, not because any of the African countries decided to clean up their act.