Is it time for Rumsfeld to retire or get fired?

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm going to tread carefully here so as to not sound like an armchair general/quarterback/Secretary of Defense. Perhaps you could give some future scenerios.

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dari
Too many mistakes in only four years. One that caused my jaw to drop was sending so few troops during the initial invasion.

But the one that caught me completely off guard was when he disbanded the Iraqi Army. That's something you simply don't do. The military of any nation is the only institution, aside from organized religion, that can keep a nation intact no matter what, making the difference between anarchy and civilization. To disband it is to assume that the invading Army can take its place in no time. Furthermore, the majority of the Iraqi military was not part of the decision-making process that caused the illegal activities for which we invaded. Sadly, our troops are paying for that mistake today with their lives.

Rumsfeld goal of making the military more efficient (do more with less) may look good on paper, but its execution has been nothing short of dismal. Bush may value loyalty, but common sense and the righting of wrongs should top that.

How would YOU have done it?

With less idealism and arrogance.

A very broad Generalization, Dari, but lets go with it.

Now, with your way, you will have Rumsfeld's example to create a basis for your way.

Also, you will have Rumsfeld's example to weigh against, the degree of success or failure of your way.

Tell me, Dari, What comparative model did Rumsfeld have to create a basis for his way?

Donald Rumsfeld got most of his influence from the various think-tanks within Washington DC and New York City. including but not limited to the Council on Foreign Relations, Project for a New American Century, and the Heritage Foundation. Most of these thinkers had never donned military gear and were speaking from a philosophically political point of view. Unfortunately, reality prove to be very different and nasty.

Tell me also, Dari, What compariative model did you use to weigh the failure of Rumsfeld's way?

I used history, sir. Even though I supported some of his initiatives, Rumsefld wanted very little feedback from the Generals in the military. Instead, he turned to his politicos for the most "efficient" way to lead America and the world in the New World. That arrogance cause several high profile resignations with the military brass. Rumsfeld also failed to take into account the assessment of most of our allies, except the Israelis. He turned his back to the Arabs, the Europeans, the Canadians, and the Japanese. Compared to other Defense Secretaries, this was unabashed arrogance.

Tell me also, Dari, How are you able to make this assessment, given the fact that we are still engaged in the action?

It doesn't hurt to analyze your actions every once in a while. Hiding from the truth and burning bridges is not the way to lead. Unfortunately, by not listening to others within and without the military, Rumsfeld has dug himself into a big hole, but insists on remaining the Secretary of Defense so he can finish revamping the military. From what I've seen, that means more "efficient" soldiers.

Dari, I have heard this same Rhetoric more times than I care to remember. There is not anything wrong with the way your are thinking, but I do have doubts about the information, or lack of it, that you are using to come to your conclusions.

My thought is that, Yes, Rumsfeld has probably made a lot of mistakes. But I am fairly certain that You and I, and the people that provided the Rhetorical information that you defend your premise with, are probably not qualified to assess Rumsfelds Job performance. Then again, what mechanism is there that could?

I voted for president Bush and Rumsfeld serves at his pleasure, and I will defend Rumsfeld from that pov.

Have a good day, Dari.

 

[SuperTool]

Unless this administration wants to change its approach to foreign policy and warfighting, then Rumsfeld should stay. I wouldn't want to see another Colin Powell be ignored and overruled all the time.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dari
I'm going to tread carefully here so as to not sound like an armchair general/quarterback/Secretary of Defense. Perhaps you could give some future scenerios.

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dari
Too many mistakes in only four years. One that caused my jaw to drop was sending so few troops during the initial invasion.

But the one that caught me completely off guard was when he disbanded the Iraqi Army. That's something you simply don't do. The military of any nation is the only institution, aside from organized religion, that can keep a nation intact no matter what, making the difference between anarchy and civilization. To disband it is to assume that the invading Army can take its place in no time. Furthermore, the majority of the Iraqi military was not part of the decision-making process that caused the illegal activities for which we invaded. Sadly, our troops are paying for that mistake today with their lives.

Rumsfeld goal of making the military more efficient (do more with less) may look good on paper, but its execution has been nothing short of dismal. Bush may value loyalty, but common sense and the righting of wrongs should top that.

How would YOU have done it?

With less idealism and arrogance.

A very broad Generalization, Dari, but lets go with it.

Now, with your way, you will have Rumsfeld's example to create a basis for your way.

Also, you will have Rumsfeld's example to weigh against, the degree of success or failure of your way.

Tell me, Dari, What comparative model did Rumsfeld have to create a basis for his way?

Donald Rumsfeld got most of his influence from the various think-tanks within Washington DC and New York City. including but not limited to the Council on Foreign Relations, Project for a New American Century, and the Heritage Foundation. Most of these thinkers had never donned military gear and were speaking from a philosophically political point of view. Unfortunately, reality prove to be very different and nasty.

Tell me also, Dari, What compariative model did you use to weigh the failure of Rumsfeld's way?

I used history, sir. Even though I supported some of his initiatives, Rumsefld wanted very little feedback from the Generals in the military. Instead, he turned to his politicos for the most "efficient" way to lead America and the world in the New World. That arrogance cause several high profile resignations with the military brass. Rumsfeld also failed to take into account the assessment of most of our allies, except the Israelis. He turned his back to the Arabs, the Europeans, the Canadians, and the Japanese. Compared to other Defense Secretaries, this was unabashed arrogance.

Tell me also, Dari, How are you able to make this assessment, given the fact that we are still engaged in the action?

It doesn't hurt to analyze your actions every once in a while. Hiding from the truth and burning bridges is not the way to lead. Unfortunately, by not listening to others within and without the military, Rumsfeld has dug himself into a big hole, but insists on remaining the Secretary of Defense so he can finish revamping the military. From what I've seen, that means more "efficient" soldiers.

Dari, I have heard this same Rhetoric more times than I care to remember. There is not anything wrong with the way your are thinking, but I do have doubts about the information, or lack of it, that you are using to come to your conclusions.

My thought is that, Yes, Rumsfeld has probably made a lot of mistakes. But I am fairly certain that You and I, and the people that provided the Rhetorical information that you defend your premise with, are probably not qualified to assess Rumsfelds Job performance. Then again, what mechanism is there that could?

I voted for president Bush and Rumsfeld serves at his pleasure, and I will defend Rumsfeld from that pov.

Have a good day, Dari.

Don't run away so fast. And don't blindly support anyone, even if you vote for them. I voted for Bush too, but I would like to see major changes in his governance and the philosophy behind it. It's one thing to dismiss liberals/Democrats because they are your political opponent, but to dismiss dissenting voices withing your party is asinine. If the man has made many mistakes, as you admit, he should be showned (sic?) the door. Furthermore, what I'm saying isn't just rhetoric and it deserves a healthy debate within the Republican party and the leadership council. This isn't Nazi Germany.

EDIT: Not only are we qualified to judge his performance but we are allowed to judge him with different parameters on different levels. The soldiers, military brass, Congress, diplomats, and ordinary Americans are allowed to judge him. Rumsfeld's performance affects all of them in different ways. Who are you to say we can't judge those that work for us?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

No, I'm saying the left would love to have a chance to once again bring up Abu, and other things to destroy him in their quest for power - all the while dragging our military through the mud.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

No, I'm saying the left would love to have a chance to once again bring up Abu, and other things to destroy him in their quest for power - all the while dragging our military through the mud.

CsG

Aren't Rumsfeld supporters dragging the military through the mud over Abu, trying to blame the soldiers on the ground for the rules and techniques (or lack thereof) set in Washington?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

No, I'm saying the left would love to have a chance to once again bring up Abu, and other things to destroy him in their quest for power - all the while dragging our military through the mud.

CsG

Aren't Rumsfeld supporters dragging the military through the mud over Abu, trying to blame the soldiers on the ground for the rules and techniques (or lack thereof) set in Washington?

Indivuals responsible - yes. However some like to paint the entire military as being that way/doing that sort of thing. Rummy running would give them cause to do it all over again.

CsG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

No, I'm saying the left would love to have a chance to once again bring up Abu, and other things to destroy him in their quest for power - all the while dragging our military through the mud.

CsG

Aren't Rumsfeld supporters dragging the military through the mud over Abu, trying to blame the soldiers on the ground for the rules and techniques (or lack thereof) set in Washington?

Indivuals responsible - yes. However some like to paint the entire military as being that way/doing that sort of thing. Rummy running would give them cause to do it all over again.

CsG

Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Geardo
I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

Umm - no. The left would just love the opportunity to drag our troop's name through the mud attacking him to regain power. They can't be allowed to do that to our servicemen and women. Rummy won't run.

CsG

So even you are assuming Iraq will be a failure by 2008?

No, I'm saying the left would love to have a chance to once again bring up Abu, and other things to destroy him in their quest for power - all the while dragging our military through the mud.

CsG

Aren't Rumsfeld supporters dragging the military through the mud over Abu, trying to blame the soldiers on the ground for the rules and techniques (or lack thereof) set in Washington?

Indivuals responsible - yes. However some like to paint the entire military as being that way/doing that sort of thing. Rummy running would give them cause to do it all over again.

CsG

Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Please, stop holding this administration responsible for its responsibilities. The buck stops nowhere.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

But what about those who condoned and facilitated those acts?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

 

[kage69]

I want Rumsfeld to be President in 2008!

I want you to get a CAT scan.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

Please, don't you know that criticizing the administration is the same as criticizing the troops. You wouldn't want to do that, now would you?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

Please, don't you know that criticizing the administration is the same as criticizing the troops. You wouldn't want to do that, now would you?

I also wonder who was responsible for disbanding the Iraqi Army right after the first phase of the war was over?

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

Please, don't you know that criticizing the administration is the same as criticizing the troops. You wouldn't want to do that, now would you?

I also wonder who was responsible for disbanding the Iraqi Army right after the first phase of the war was over?

That's generally attributed to Paul Bremmer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Want a slap in the face?

George Tenet, retired Gen. Tommy Franks and Paul Bremmer received the Presidential Medal of Freedom (highest civilian medal) just last month.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

Please, don't you know that criticizing the administration is the same as criticizing the troops. You wouldn't want to do that, now would you?

I also wonder who was responsible for disbanding the Iraqi Army right after the first phase of the war was over?

That's generally attributed to Paul Bremmer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Want a slap in the face?

George Tenet, retired Gen. Tommy Franks and Paul Bremmer received the Presidential Medal of Freedom (highest civilian medal) just last month.

Big Deal, that's just some ceremonial BS medal. It's not like a Medal earned for bravery.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Yeah it's a shame that happened under his watch!

Yes it is. Those who committed these acts are being held to account.

CsG

Who takes the heat for not assessing the situation correctly before invading and occupying Iraq? Rummy as it's his job to act as a buffer for the Dub.

Please, don't you know that criticizing the administration is the same as criticizing the troops. You wouldn't want to do that, now would you?

I also wonder who was responsible for disbanding the Iraqi Army right after the first phase of the war was over?

That's generally attributed to Paul Bremmer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Want a slap in the face?

George Tenet, retired Gen. Tommy Franks and Paul Bremmer received the Presidential Medal of Freedom (highest civilian medal) just last month.

Big Deal, that's just some ceremonial BS medal. It's not like a Medal earned for bravery.

It's not the medal I'm talking about. It's the act of giving these civilians, whom are all responsible, the highest honored status that can be given to a civilian in the US along with a pat on the back.

 

[kage69]

It's not the medal I'm talking about. It's the act of giving these civilians, whom are all responsible, the highest honored status that can be given to a civilian in the US along with a pat on the back.

Giving thanks where none is deserved has been the American MO lately I'm afraid. Hell, we decorated Jessica Lynch for getting into a Humvee wreck. Bush, despite his record, was gifted with another term. It's a sad state of affairs. Substance means nothing, appearance is what counts.

 

[Looney]

I have to say, i use to be a fan of his press appearances... he was straight to the point, quick to rebutt, and even funny. But now he just appears clueless and callous.