Is it the watts?

[sdifox]

If your receiver has pre out, you could just get a multi channel amp.

 

[s44]

And the best deals are on the used market.

Nope, DIY. Depends how you value your time though.

 

[MrGrim999]

My AVR is 40 or 45 watts per channel but it was back when Harmon Kardon used a decent power supply so it puts out about that with 5 channels driven. That said when I was using 5 NHT SuperZeros (4.5" woofers, sealed, low efficiency of around 85db) with movies it would get loud enough that I had trouble talking to anyone sitting next to me. With certain music I would run out of power but by that time it was very loud- too loud for me to listen to for an extended time.

My room is 13x14 BTW. IMO it's more your speakers than your AVR but it could be a little of both.

As for speakers are you talking $1000 for the set or as you wrote $1K per speaker?

If the latter and you want loud but still great sounding and not have to change your AVR then-

3 of these
http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/speakers/products/cx-10?variant=823614953
and a pair of these for surrounds
http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/speakers/products/cx-8?variant=922786669

or
3 of these
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/speakers/products/mtm-210

and a pair of these
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/speakers/products/mt-110sr

Yea, after reviewing everyone's replies on here and researching further on the net, it's definitely more of a speaker issue. Coming from a HTIB, this was the first time upgrading. Honestly, I was expecting more simply because of the brand and didn't realize I was never gonna get what I was looking for from satellites. I don't have the space for floor standing speakers but I'm sure I'll find bookshelf speakers I'll be happy with.

I set $1000 as a max for each speaker just to get some examples. When the time comes, I'll probably be able to find what I'm looking for in the $500 range per speaker. Someone else mentioned the brand NHT and I looked them up. They got some great reviews and found it interesting that they include a mid range on them as well. I recently had a 2nd interview with Best Buy so as long as I get the job (knock knock) I'll probably get speakers through them. I've heard their employee discount is pretty generous. As for the receiver, I'll know when I test out the speakers. At least I know I'm definitely keeping my subwoofer hehe!

Thanks alot for all the replies guys! I learned alot!

 

[tential]

Nope, DIY. Depends how you value your time though.

It really doesn't take long to actually assemble anything. It's the painting that can take awhile.

If you buy a kit from diysoundgroup.com like the Volt 8 or something, you'll get a stupidly good compact deal that is simple to build, easy to use with the PCB that's included, and throw on a black paint like duratex and that's maybe a couple of hours on a weekend? And you get better performance than you'll ever reasonably be able to purchase? For me, it's a no brainer for DIY. I've heard enough consumer speakers, and then done DIY, to know that there isn't a consumer option within a reasonable price range worthy of my time.
My subwoofer would cost me a good $1500+ retail easily, and that doesn't factor in the fact that the feet on my sub, as well as my paint job are both simply done, but things that would have cost me a VAST amount of money extra.
I'm also not hardware savvy either, it was the first thing I ever assembled and it was very very easy despite trying to screw it up I was incapable of doing so.

But DIY isn't for everyone.

If I was the OP, I'd honestly just build the Overnight Sensations. I seriously bet that would be enough to get the job done. I'll let you all know soon enough when I build them myself for a small speaker build for my bedroom. I hope it'll be enough, but if not, I'll probably sell them for far more than it cost me to build/assemble (including my time) online anyway.

 

[MongGrel]

Exactly. And bigger is almost always better. Air must move to create volume and the laws of physics are harsh.

Edit: And the best deals are on the used market. Go that route if you can find something you like.

I still use old huge speakers from the early 80's.

I still think they sound great, and use one of these with them.

I guess most people don't care for Sony receivers a lot, but I like it I guess.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J356C0K?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00

Have a second older Pioneer receiver that runs the two older Kenwood KL777A's for dual subwoofers, and one of these things for the center channel.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117404

Bought that center on sale for about half that at the time though.

Maybe not the most advanced thing out there, but yeah it has been a work over time and has some pretty older larger speakers hooked into the system.

I like it at any rate.

I can play along with this easily for it if I'm in the mood I guess, and still sounds good to me.

I even modified those JVC's at one time decades ago, one of the mid ranges and a tweeter blew, but the woofers still worked great. They aren't standard

They are even old school Radio Shack ones I replaced them with back in the day.

They have held up very well.

That was an old pic, it runs 7.2 now.

 

[tential]

Yea, after reviewing everyone's replies on here and researching further on the net, it's definitely more of a speaker issue. Coming from a HTIB, this was the first time upgrading. Honestly, I was expecting more simply because of the brand and didn't realize I was never gonna get what I was looking for from satellites. I don't have the space for floor standing speakers but I'm sure I'll find bookshelf speakers I'll be happy with.

I set $1000 as a max for each speaker just to get some examples. When the time comes, I'll probably be able to find what I'm looking for in the $500 range per speaker. Someone else mentioned the brand NHT and I looked them up. They got some great reviews and found it interesting that they include a mid range on them as well. I recently had a 2nd interview with Best Buy so as long as I get the job (knock knock) I'll probably get speakers through them. I've heard their employee discount is pretty generous. As for the receiver, I'll know when I test out the speakers. At least I know I'm definitely keeping my subwoofer hehe!

Thanks alot for all the replies guys! I learned alot!

What gar has provided you are the types of designs I'm talking about with DIY. These are high efficiency designs. Notice the sensitivity of the speakers. A 98. They'll be driven to LOUD volumes with low wattage easily. The diysoundgroup.com designs are the same concept and it's the same concept used in pro audio speakers live shows, etc.
For design purposes amount other reasons, this is dumped for softdome tweeters which end up being a less efficient design and thus you get speakers with far lower inefficiencies that need a LOT of power to get very loud. These speakers are not for a bedroom really. They'll never to get to see their full potential in one anyway unless you listen to movies at reference level in your bedroom and you have a LARGE bedroom. But meh, if you can do it try it out. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. My original plan was to buy the Volt 8's on that site and make a build almost exactly like this, but the Volt's are Coaxial speakers (to further conserve space).

If you don't want to build, that is the design you're looking for. It seems you like it loud, and if you like it loud, a tweeter like what's in your current speaker won't cut it. I'm in the same boat, and you need a high efficiency design if you want it to get loud reasonably. Not to mention, it means you can keep your current AVR and don't need an expensive power setup like what I currently have because I kept blowing the tweeters in my speakers from trying to get it loud enough to actually be happy with it. I currently have 2 Amps that deliver a ridiculous amount of power, but with high efficiency design, that isn't needed (Not needed, but there is no way I am not using an amp lol. All it's done is let me get any high efficiency design I want and know I can power it easily which is bad because now I want a speaker that should not be in a residential area probably.

 

[MongGrel]

All About That Bass - Postmodern Jukebox European Tour Version



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLnZ1NQm2uk

 

[Charmonium]

If you don't want to build, that is the design you're looking for. It seems you like it loud, and if you like it loud, a tweeter like what's in your current speaker won't cut it. I'm in the same boat, and you need a high efficiency design if you want it to get loud reasonably.

Can you get high efficiency speakers that handle transients well? I thought that to get proper imaging for short, sharp sounds like say drums, you need a powerful magnet in the voice coil and so to move the coil, you need more energy. For example one set of speakers I use has a relatively low efficiency of 85db but the transients are much cleaner. You can pick out details that are lost on the other set.

 

[tential]

Can you get high efficiency speakers that handle transients well? I thought that to get proper imaging for short, sharp sounds like say drums, you need a powerful magnet in the voice coil and so to move the coil, you need more energy. For example one set of speakers I use has a relatively low efficiency of 85db but the transients are much cleaner. You can pick out details that are lost on the other set.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/compression-drivers/dna-360.html
I think that's a pretty big magnet compared to the 1 inch tweeters that are found in most speakers.

I don't meant o push his site, I can't find those drivers on parts express.

I will say this Charmonium. These speakers from diysoundgroup are designed by actual speaker designers. Their designs have been seen and thumbs upped from many designers from high end expensive $3000+ designs. They've been tested directly against these designs in NUMEROUS meets. The numbers are there for actual response testing, off axis testing, etc. You'll find more testing of these designs than you will of any commercial speaker, because it's build by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts, while being EASY to assemble and build (one of the key purposes) with using parts that are cost efficient, while not skimping (many places skimp on internals).

I wish I could give you an exact reference for transients, but I'll say I've specifically heard the quote "It's extremely detailed" or some variation of it, so many times in reference to these speakers listed on their site (Volts, Home Cinemas, FUsions, and more if you want to know the exact ones), from those who have been SEARCHING for those things, that I can't imagine it would be anything other than top notch. Usually, you hear of disappointed customers, but I haven't seen one I can recall to get a "bad user experience" because I usually want one of those.

From building myself, I built a PC and that was necessary to get what I wanted within good price bracket. I could have purchased though and gotten a PC. It may have been 30% more money. But it was possible. Building a speaker, was essential. It would cost 200-300% more to get this same level of quality.

But that's just my opinion, I'd go and look on AVSForum yourself and ask around in the DIY section. I spent a good 2 years or so before I firmly decided to never purchase again. Before that, I was about to by the Klipsch RF7s. THey'll be able to help you a lot with speaker design. I can understand a lot of the basics when presented to me now but you'll get better answers and probably answers from designer's themselves who are usually far harder on themselves than they should be given the insane level of quality for the price you're paying.

 

[MrGrim999]

What gar has provided you are the types of designs I'm talking about with DIY. These are high efficiency designs. Notice the sensitivity of the speakers. A 98. They'll be driven to LOUD volumes with low wattage easily. The diysoundgroup.com designs are the same concept and it's the same concept used in pro audio speakers live shows, etc.
For design purposes amount other reasons, this is dumped for softdome tweeters which end up being a less efficient design and thus you get speakers with far lower inefficiencies that need a LOT of power to get very loud. These speakers are not for a bedroom really. They'll never to get to see their full potential in one anyway unless you listen to movies at reference level in your bedroom and you have a LARGE bedroom. But meh, if you can do it try it out. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. My original plan was to buy the Volt 8's on that site and make a build almost exactly like this, but the Volt's are Coaxial speakers (to further conserve space).

If you don't want to build, that is the design you're looking for. It seems you like it loud, and if you like it loud, a tweeter like what's in your current speaker won't cut it. I'm in the same boat, and you need a high efficiency design if you want it to get loud reasonably. Not to mention, it means you can keep your current AVR and don't need an expensive power setup like what I currently have because I kept blowing the tweeters in my speakers from trying to get it loud enough to actually be happy with it. I currently have 2 Amps that deliver a ridiculous amount of power, but with high efficiency design, that isn't needed (Not needed, but there is no way I am not using an amp lol. All it's done is let me get any high efficiency design I want and know I can power it easily which is bad because now I want a speaker that should not be in a residential area probably.

Interesting....I've seen people mention DIY but never knew what it was. If I can build desktop pc's I'm sure I can figure this out. Do you have to do any additional cutting or sawing with the wood or everything is good to go and you simply assemble?

 

[Charmonium]

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/compres...s/dna-360.html I think that's a pretty big magnet compared to the 1 inch tweeters that are found in most speakers.

I was just curious about the issue of sensitivity. My question wasn't directed at any particular brand. To get responsive speakers you need a powerful magnet, the actual size doesn't really matter but the strength of the field it produces does. Since you need more power to move the voice coil through a stronger field, it would seem to a lay person that high sensitivity and good transient response are mutually exclusive.

Personally I'd be suspicious of any sort of diy speaker just because small deviations can have a noticeable effect. But I'd love to see specs on some diy speakers. The problem is that you need lab equipment to measure things like spectral decay. Having a reviewer say a speaker is 'detailed' doesn't really much to me without the stats.

 

[tential]

I was just curious about the issue of sensitivity. My question wasn't directed at any particular brand. To get responsive speakers you need a powerful magnet, the actual size doesn't really matter but the strength of the field it produces does. Since you need more power to move the voice coil through a stronger field, it would seem to a lay person that high sensitivity and good transient response are mutually exclusive.

Personally I'd be suspicious of any sort of diy speaker just because small deviations can have a noticeable effect. But I'd love to see specs on some diy speakers. The problem is that you need lab equipment to measure things like spectral decay. Having a reviewer say a speaker is 'detailed' doesn't really much to me without the stats.

Go and ask. Most of these speakers are tested with a lot of expensive equipment. Chances are, someone has the equipment. Remember, these are designers themselves. They're there. If you have a question, go ask them lol. They post regularly on avsforum diysection. That's what makes me confident enough to recommend them. I've seen the design process they've gone through for multiple speakers that have been sold. I've seen the support they've given when someone can't get something to sound right(usually a crossover wiring mistake from not reading the diagram correctly).

Really, I have no idea what the design process was for my speakers other than the marketing process, and I have no access to ask my speaker designer anything. So really, after realizing that I felt more confident. It took me a years of reading though before I came to this level, so I understand any skepticism since I had more than enough of it myself years before I got into the home theater hobby.

 

[MongGrel]

Go and ask. Most of these speakers are tested with a lot of expensive equipment. Chances are, someone has the equipment. Remember, these are designers themselves. They're there. If you have a question, go ask them lol. They post regularly on avsforum diysection. That's what makes me confident enough to recommend them. I've seen the design process they've gone through for multiple speakers that have been sold. I've seen the support they've given when someone can't get something to sound right(usually a crossover wiring mistake from not reading the diagram correctly).

Really, I have no idea what the design process was for my speakers other than the marketing process, and I have no access to ask my speaker designer anything. So really, after realizing that I felt more confident. It took me a years of reading though before I came to this level, so I understand any skepticism since I had more than enough of it myself years before I got into the home theater hobby.

Or they could be selling you the speaker version of Monster Cables.

I like AVS forums myself, but still...

 

[tential]

Interesting....I've seen people mention DIY but never knew what it was. If I can build desktop pc's I'm sure I can figure this out. Do you have to do any additional cutting or sawing with the wood or everything is good to go and you simply assemble?

The kits are glued together with woodglue. You need a drill to mount your speakers (or subwoofer), and to well, drill on feet and make holes and stuff.

If you want to be really custom ya you'd need a saw. But I think the best value point is the assemble yourself. If you have the tools though already, and you know how to build things, then you should get creative as you can make some amazing works of art once you know what you're doing.

I bought clamp to hold everything together while it dried. Well, a couple of them since you'll need more than one. You could use ducttape and some heavy books/cement blocks/something heavy. However, I knew I'd build at least 5 speakers, so I factored that into my cost. I was also building a subwoofer, you may be able to get away with less for smaller speakers and smaller clamps as I needed far bigger ones. I'll need even bigger ones now that the 18 inch Dayton Ultimax is finally out.

If I can do it, and I never had done ANY type of woodwork/building before doing so, then I'd say anyone can.

 

[Charmonium]

If you need really big clamps, try a set of pipe clamps. You can make them as long as the pipe.

 

[MongGrel]

...

 

[tential]

Or they could be selling you the speaker version of Monster Cables.

I like AVS forums myself, but still...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-popalock-diy-fest-gtg-speaker-listening.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1524353-vancouver-summertime-gtg.html

Just some of the many audio meets in which these speakers were at where you can see them pitted against top of the line speakers.
Go ask if you can listen to someone who is in your area... I was surprised how many people in my area had speakers I could listen to.

Or you could ask yourself
"If I can recommend parts for someone to build a PC, why can't someone recommend me parts to build a speaker."

Parts are listed there, you can buy them yourself if you want. It should be the same price as it is on parts-express since that's where most of the parts come from. It's not a business, it's a DIYcommunity thing so there isn't a profit. Like all good things DIY, it'll end soon, I am surprised it even lasted this long to begin with so you won't get a 5 year warranty support. Ask for the design of the crossover if you don't trust him if it's not listed/readily available and I'm sure he'll provide it to you.

 

[MrGrim999]

Sound and Vision tests the RX-V377 at about 41 watts with 5 channels driven. 80watts with 2.

If the low end is 120hz that you absolutely must ensure that the crossover is set to around that area. That still allows for more power reserved. The amp is not wasting that power.

One last question.....if that's true about it putting out only about 40 watts with 5 channels like I have, does that mean they're being underpowered? Is this ok for now?

 

[Charmonium]

One last question.....if that's true about it putting out only about 40 watts with 5 channels like I have, does that mean they're being underpowered? Is this ok for now?

It's better to be slightly underpowered rather than overpowered. But that's just my personal opinion. Drive too much power and you can blow out your speakers. According the Klipsch web site, the satellites are only rated for 50 watts continuous anyway. The center for 75watts. So you're already driving them at close to their upper limit.

 

[MrGrim999]

It's better to be slightly underpowered rather than overpowered. But that's just my personal opinion. Drive too much power and you can blow out your speakers. According the Klipsch web site, the satellites are only rated for 50 watts continuous anyway. The center for 75watts. So you're already driving them at close to their upper limit.

Ok cool....just making sure everything is chill for now. And as of today I'm officially hired at Best Buy! . As pissed I am about having to replace my speakers and receiver after only 8 months, at least I'll be able to replace them with their awesome employee discount!

 

[SithSolo1]

If you want stick with Klipsch and buy them from BB I would start with these:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...lack/6228067.p?id=1219198825141&skuId=6228067
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...lack/6228109.p?id=1219198818817&skuId=6228109

 

[sdifox]

It's better to be slightly underpowered rather than overpowered. But that's just my personal opinion. Drive too much power and you can blow out your speakers. According the Klipsch web site, the satellites are only rated for 50 watts continuous anyway. The center for 75watts. So you're already driving them at close to their upper limit.

err, more drivers have died from overdriving the amp to clipping than being overpowered.

 

[sdifox]

One last question.....if that's true about it putting out only about 40 watts with 5 channels like I have, does that mean they're being underpowered? Is this ok for now?

no it is better to have more power than you need. 40w is pretty anemic and if you drive the amp hard, it could clip and send a distorted signal to your tweeter and kill it.

 

[MrGrim999]

no it is better to have more power than you need. 40w is pretty anemic and if you drive the amp hard, it could clip and send a distorted signal to your tweeter and kill it.

Honestly, I don't think I'm pushing them too hard anyway. The highest I keep the volume when I'm watching tv or a blu ray during the day is around -26. A few times when I wanted to see how it sounded louder, I raised the volume to around -15 and there wasn't even any difference so I never did that again. Also, I've never heard the speakers distort at -26 so I think I'm ok for now.

I'll be replacing the receiver and speakers soon enough I see some of the newer receivers are already DTS-X ready.

Now I gotta decide if I should go with Denon , Mirantz, Onkyo, or stick with Yamaha....not to drag this thread any further! hehe

 

[Charmonium]

no it is better to have more power than you need. 40w is pretty anemic and if you drive the amp hard, it could clip and send a distorted signal to your tweeter and kill it.

If that's 40w per channel, I wouldn't really call that anemic unless you're trying to power a stack of Marshalls. I'm exaggerating obviously but you get the idea. Into 5 channels that's 200w. That's enough to make anyone's ears bleed.

The only way there's going to be any clipping is if you go over 0db. As long as you stay negative, you should be withing the amps specs. And besides, those speakers are rated for 200w peak - each. So how are they going to suffer even if he does overtax the amp?