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Is it stupid to build a socket 754 system?

S

SPD2171

Member
Hey there,

It seems I can build a killer socket 754 system for quite a bit less than a 939 system with comparable parts. My main question for you people is - how long can I expect to get out of a socket 754 system before needing to upgrade the cpu/mobo to the latest and greatest? I need to use AGP for this build to take advantage of my current video card, so waiting for N4 or PCI-E isn't an option.

My purpose of building this system is to upgrade my gaming rig - which is currently an Athlon XP2800+ Barton. I play HL2, MoHPA, and multiple other FPS and RPGs. I have a 21 inch CRT monitor which I would like to be able to play on 1600x1200, but this current system won't do it without too much stutter or lag.

How much of a performance hit does the DDR take on the 754 vs the 939?

Here is my list of parts and prices for the build - feel free to tell me if I have effed up somewhere.

Processor: 3400+ 2.4 GHz Processor 512K L2 Cache = $206.00

Motherboard: DFI LanParty UT NF3 250GB Socket 754 = $103.00

Memory: PQI Turbo Series PC4000 in 2x512 dual kit = $180.00

Hard Drive: Seagate 120gig SATA 8mb Cache = $82.00

Optic Drive: NEC ND-3500A 16x Dual Layer DVD burner = $63.00

Power Supply: ENERMAX 460W Whisper II Power = $77.00
_____________________________________________________________________________

Total upgrade is $711.00. I would be reusing the case I have now, as well as the 9800XT AGP I currently use.

My question is this I guess: Is this a smart and viable upgrade over the 2800+ XP, and will I see the performance difference stock vs stock? I have never overclocked this system, and am willing to OC the new one, but I don't want to pay 700 dollars to upgrade to HAVE to OC to see a difference..lol.

Any and all advice welcome!







 
Regarding skt 754 vs 939 there is pretty much no difference at all (I have used both). What is your current board and for how long have you had ther cpu (it might be old enough to be unlocked). I would first try to overclock your current setup to 2.3 2.4 gigs and add more memory if needed. If you are st on a new righ, then as long as the skt 754 is cheaper than a skt 939 then go for it. it will be faster than the current xp2800 you have even if you do not oc the athlon 64. It might not feel faster though because of the 9800XT. Try to reuse your memory (check zebo tread about memory speeds and the little impact they have) so you would be better off by upgrading the card insted of the memory.
 
Thanks Quino.

The system I have now is a store bought Emachines T2825. It is a FIC AU31 board, and the system is about 18 months old. The memory installed is generic PC2700 that Emachines uses (got a 2nd stick as a cheap upgrade when I purchased the system).

That's why I can't reuse the power supply. Luckily I have a decent case from one of my friends builds, so I am ok there.

There are no options for OCing on the FIC bios, and I think I would be better off selling the Emachines for 350 bucks or so and putting that towards the new system.

Comparing the 3500+ 939 with a good mobo to the 3400+ with a good mobo, it looks like I am saving about 100 dollars, which lets me get the better ram.
 
At the moment, no. Socket 754 is actually faster than Socket 939 in some respects.

Sure, eventually Socket 754 will no longer be supported (like Socket A), but for now, Socket 754 is a good way to go if you want to build a budget build. With nForce4 and native PCI-e on the way, jumping into the Socket 939 will sooner or later require quite the upgrade of multiple components (not just cpu/mobo).

I would invest too much into a Socket 754 system though, just in case you feel the urge to go Socket 939.

Some suggestions to your rig:
Processor: 3400+ 2.4 GHz Processor 512K L2 Cache = $206.00
Click to expand...
Go used (to the FS/FT forum) and get a 2800+ or 3000+. Save yourself some money in the long-run and OC the 2800/3000. I have a 2800+, 3000+, 3200+, all feel the same in all respects other than benchmarks. But benchmarks aren't really practical, all they do is prove one proc is better than the other, but in a realistic aspect, you won't notice any real difference.
Motherboard: DFI LanParty UT NF3 250GB Socket 754 = $103.00
Click to expand...
Epox 8KDA3J: Inexpensive, reliable and a solid performer (just no onboard firewire). That being said, there is nothing wrong with the DFI UT, just it's $40 more 🙂
Memory: PQI Turbo Series PC4000 in 2x512 dual kit = $180.00
Click to expand...
Needs more PDP Patriot 3200 w/ XBL 🙂 PQI just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Thanks alot for the tips MrCodeDude - points taken!

PDP SYSTEMS Memory 184-Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200, Model PEP5123200LL - Retail

2 of those run 185, so not too much more...

Will the PC3200 be as good as the PC4000 though? I thought buying the PC4000 would guarantee me an OC of at least those MHZ
 
I asked myself the same question back in November, and I decided that no it wasn't. I built a very solid s754 system and I love it. I saved some major $$$ on the motherboard by buying it slightly used from the FS/FT forum and put the extra $$$ into a better CPU. I feel that I am good to go now for at least another year before I have to spend major money.

The best part: after selling my old stuff I wound up only spending $100 to go from s462 to s754. And my system is significantly faster.
 
I expect socket 754 to stay around a while longer,maybe no more A64's will be made for it but I can see the sempron taking over that socket.
 
SPD2171, no a better memory will not granted more mhz, the cpu is the one that is going to be the main factor. Better memory will get you a higher htt at 1:1 but again Read Zebo's post in the cpu forum about his test with pc 2100 memory, pc3200 memory (low and High latency) and pc4000 memory. I would get value memory pc3200 and then run a divider and with the money saved get a better video card. Also, like someone said get a 2800 or 3000 and oc it (you should get at least 2.4 (specially if bough used and it had been ran at that speed. the power supply is a really good choice. Also hunt the FS forums here. With the Nforce 4 a lot of people is jumping the 939 bandwagon and upgrading from skt 754 🙂 so you might even be able to get a 3000 or 3200 winchester and a decent skt 939 for less than what you would pay for the new skt 754 3400.
 
That was an interesting read Quino - hard to believe that I can spend 50 or 60 dollars less per gig of ram and get very comparable results... thanks a million for the info on that zebo post.

Yea I think I will hold on a bit longer... looks to me that alot of people want PCI express and will be switching motherboards to get it. Maybe I can get myself a good deal in the for sale forums, and save some cash in the process.

Thanks again for the help!

 
According to Zebo's official skt 939 memory tests (they should trsnslate to skt 754 since it is the sma architecture on the cpu with minor tweakings).

Video card is BFG6800GT@ultra only to give a realistic OC for most video overclocks.

Test 1: Super budget leftover from 2001 crucial PC2100 ram
290 bus
100 memsetting yeilds PC2200
3 3 3 1T

Test 2: Highend Samsung TCCD
290bus
133 mem setting Yeilds ~PC3100
2-2-2 1T

Test3: Buffalo Value ram
290 Bus
133 mem setting Yeilds ~PC3100
3-3-3 1T

Test 4: Highend Samsung TCCD
290Bus 1:1
200 memsetting Yeilds ~PC4700
3-4-3 1T

Testing software: All real world except Sandra mem/cpu just to show what how erronious it is for A64:

-SiSoftware Sandra Lite 2005, mem and CPU <<<pay attention to the BS going on here
-Far Cry 1.3 HardwareOC Far Cry Benchmark Demo , max details, AF = 1, AA = 0, 800x600 and 1600 x 1200
-Unreal Tournament 2003 @ 10x7 default settings
-LAME 3.96.1 (build from mitiok.cjb.net)Default settings 163MB CBS Masterworks Beethoven Symph #9 op.125 Allegro non troppo, un poco maestoso 16:44m
-Cinebench 2003
-ScienceMark 2.0 beta (23SEP03 build) - Molecular Dynamics
-PiFast Parameters: 0,0,10m,1024,1
-Superpi 1M
-Winrar 3.41 internal benchmark

Sandr mem INT ALU
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 4285
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 5556
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 5602
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 7272


Sandra mem FLOAT FPU
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 4288
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 5550
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 5603
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 7267
As you can see, Sanda mem is showing a whopping ~70% faster vs. the cheapest PC2100 ram ever sold. And 30% more than value, PC3200 ram @3-3-3. Will this translate into real performance gains? Well lets see.

Sandra CPU Drystone ALU
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 11064
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 11068
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 11066
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 11071
no difference

Sandra CPU FPU
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 4253
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 4253
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 4253
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 4252
no difference

Sandra CPU SSE2
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 5527
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 5536
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 5528
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 5551
meh, now lets get to the real world:

Farcry 800x600 in FPS
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 61.46
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 66.49
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 72.67
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 74.97

Farcry 1600x1200 in FPS
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 62.25
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 68.14
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 71.31
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 73.52
On farcry, we see ~18% faster performance from the cheapest ram. But only ~8% faster from value ram. hint: spend the xtra $100 on a better video card.

Pifast in seconds
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 38.91
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 36.53
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 35.48
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 34.67
We see bandwitdh have *some* effect here..nothing to write home about. PC2200 vs PC4700 is 10.9% faster, but very small diff with budget ram

Superpi 1M in seconds
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 37
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 34
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 33
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 32
Similar as above. Nothing drastic at anything above PC3200

Science Mark- Molecular Dynamics time in seconds
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 67.03
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 66.92
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 66.68
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 66.69
Seems bandwidth has no effect here.

CineBench 2003 Rendering
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 363
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 365
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 366
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 368
Seems bandwidth has no effect here.

CineBench 2003 Shadowing
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 414
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 426
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 434
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 439
Infinitesmal bandwidth help

CineBench 2003 OpenGL SW
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 1949
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 1992
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 2019
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 2032
Infinitesmal bandwidth help

CineBench 2003 OpenGL HW
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 3568
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 3662
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 3756
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 3781
this is getting old, on to another game.

UT2003 10x7 Flyby
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 297
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 319
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 334
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 341
14% max boost, hey

UT2003 10x7 BotMatch
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 110
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 118
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 123
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 127
15% boost

Winrar in KB/s
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 496
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 564
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 636
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 651
Here we see pretty signifigant gains due to bendwidth 30% diff top to bottom. This test obviously is very beneficial to have bandwidth or LL.

Lame in seconds
PC2200 - 3-3-3 1T- 56
PC3100 - 3-3-3 1T- 56
PC3100 - 2-2-2 1T- 56
PC4700 - 3-4-3 1T- 56
Zippo.


Well there it was. While sandra likes to show whopping bandwidth of expensive TCCD it really does'nt translate to real world . Only one area seemed signifigant was winrar. The couple game tests I think you're much better of upgrading to the next tier of video card if on a budget instead of investing with overpriced ram. Investing in expensive Ram probably offers to poorest bang for the buck of any computer par[h/]t.

Course if you want the best, go ahead but I'm sticking with $130 2x512 value ram and use a divider from now on.

one other thing of intrest is running async 133 at low timmings 2-2-2 was almost as good as PC4700 .... many a ram can do ~200Mhz 2-2-2.
 
Np, and that was a wise decision 🙂 specially since after the holidays a lot of people will be broke and with some extra toys laying around to sell for cheap 🙂
 
I agree a sckt 754 is still a viable choice but I think MrcodeDude is wrong about this statement

"Socket 754 is actually faster than Socket 939 in some respects"

This is incorrect...Sckt 939's are dual channel controllers and out of the gate are faster 1-3% maybe 2-5%....All the same architecture is there except the dual controller for the sckt 939...so the statement makes no sense whatsoever.

That being said before someone has a cow!!! sckt 939s clock for clock versus the sckt 754s are faster...AMD has already accounted for ADDED PERFORMANCE with their ADJUSTED PR RATING....

3000+ sckt 745 is 2.0ghz, but the 3000+ sckt 939 is 1.8ghz.....so YES YES YES in cpu intensive apps the 3000+ sckt 754 will and can be faster...

However anyone with a BRAIN in their heads would not compare pr ratings from AMD...Most review sites did not and compared clock for clock and came to the conclusion sckt 939 is faster...cooler on average (likely due to less vcore)...


Ultimately in these parts (ocing enthusiasts) we dont talk in pr rating but mhz we are clocked to....In those realms clock for clock the 939 is faster by the difference of the dual controller...Both can oc to near same levels with the 939 probably beginning to be more consisitent in most all chips reaching same high levels...IN a few months the chances are with the dead end of sckt 754 chips the 939's will distinguish themselves as able to reach higher clocks....
 
Thanks alot for the insight Duvie. The more I read here and elsewhere, the more I am leaning towards a socket 939 platform. I really need to be able to use this 9800XT for awhile longer, so AGP at this point is a must.

But, if I have a s939 processor and a year from now everything is PCIexpress... I could always buy a pci-e mobo then and transfer the processor. I don't think they will make 754 mobos PCI-e, so if I am replacing a mobo anyhow - maybe I can salvage a processor..lol.

All that being said, I know in the end 18 months from now I will want the FX-68 processor and the quad-sli ati X 55gagillion XT PEE.46 and I will be crying that my 3500+ can't play Sims 6 the naked years at more than 800x600 with no antiassing....

🙂
 
The real pisser is the price of 3500+ sckt 939's are going through the roof of late....If you dont oc it doesn't look like a good benefit at the moment...One has to look further done the oad and really much justify to their own uses and upgrade paths...
 
Nice upgrade friend but even with all that upgrade I still dont think your going to notice a huge difference without also upping your video card. The 9800XT is a great card but honestly its not going to do 1600 x 1200 in everything you want it to. The 6600 GT is way faster and it cant do 1600 x 1200 in all games smoothly.

So you will get some increase, but not sure its the amount your expecting. In fact look at some benchmarks that compare the 3400+ to the 2800+. I just dont think you will be satisifed at 1600 x 1200. The increase you will get will not be that much at that res with this card. Well not in all games of course.
 
I think it's un-wise to build any AGP setup right now ...or any computer right now if you keep your comps longer than 1 year

Wait 1 month..

Then PCIe x800XL $300 GTish in speed for $100 less and PCie
DFI/ASUS single PCIe NF4 ultra board $140
3000 939 $150

This way you can OC to FX53/55 which sould be good for two years until dual core comes to fruition. Then get a dual core 939 chip and a new graphics card PCIe and your "old" XL will still have value all while keeping good mobo.

939 NF3 boards are weak anyway. No japanese capacitors all have issues not built to last IMO.


As far as buying now 754 vs 939.. I'd go 754 just cause DFI board it's the best A64 motherboard and some very reputable overclcokers have said best mobo ever. You'll sacrifice 3-5% speed in some benchmarks due to loosing dual channel, But you probably will overclock higher due to superior mobo negating those effects...especially if you buy a 3400 which all seem to hit 2700Mhz...

You upgrade now you loose PCIe and hardrive NCQ which are right here bascially.

my2c
 
Thanks alot gentlemen for the advice. I have survived this long without upgrading, I suppose I can wait another month or two to see what the options are then! If my 9800XT is going to be a bottleneck even with the new system, it makes sense to wait and let prices drop a bit and hopefully get a better card in my package for about the same money.

God it sucks being grown up and having to wait for something...lol. My kids get what they want, why can't I? LOL!

Again, my thanks. I will keep reading and looking around and maybe snag one hell of a deal here over the next few months.
 
Originally posted by: SPD2171
Thanks Quino.

The system I have now is a store bought Emachines T2825. It is a FIC AU31 board, and the system is about 18 months old. The memory installed is generic PC2700 crap that Emachines uses (got a 2nd stick as a cheap upgrade when I purchased the system).
Click to expand...

you say its generic pc2700 but in mine its samsung pc3200 only its limited to 2700 due to the FSB of the 2800+ check it again with cpu-z.
 
Originally posted by: Duvie
I agree a sckt 754 is still a viable choice but I think MrcodeDude is wrong about this statement

"Socket 754 is actually faster than Socket 939 in some respects"

This is incorrect...Sckt 939's are dual channel controllers and out of the gate are faster 1-3% maybe 2-5%....All the same architecture is there except the dual controller for the sckt 939...so the statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's incorrect, on paper it makes sense, but in real world it's possible, dual channel does not always have to yield gains. real world is 3-5% AT BEST, but some apps have been known to even go down slightly in performance running dual channel.. I don't have any links, but I remember reading that somewhere. so it's not incorrect, but it definitely would seem incorrect to some people. 🙂
 
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