is it just me or do squats and DL's not hit the hamstrings enough?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

i never feel any soreness in the hamstrings after a SS workout, and i'm following the schedule religiously, piling on more weight each session after a 3 month hiatus/reset.
my quads always hurt, but never the hammy's.

last friday was supposed to be an off day but i went to the gym to do some light accessory work and isolated the hamstrings and noticed how weak they were.
they're still sore today.

 

[BeauJangles]

Drive through your heels and squeeze your ass. The minute the weight shifts on to the front of your foot, your quads do the heavy lifting.

 

[TallBill]

What did you do to isolate the hamstrings? Mine are pretty freakish just from deadlifting, sometimes I'll do good mornings on my squat days.

 

[geokilla]

You could always try wasting out your quads first by doing some light leg extensions. I read it forces the hamstrings to come into play more.

 

[brikis98]

First of all, soreness is not an indicator of anything. It is possible that your hamstrings just don't get sore easily, but are still being used plenty. On the other hand, if you don't feel yourself using them at all during squats and deadlifts, and you think they are still weak, then probably means your form is wrong. Without some videos to see, it's hard to guess exactly why, but here are some pointers:

Squat: you aren't using hip drive. Instead, you're probably doing a leg press like motion with a weight on your back, which is a very quad dominant and inefficient motion. If you have the SS book, re-read the squat chapter. If you don't have the book, get it! To have a strong squat, and to build the kind of strength that transfers well to the real world, you've got to engage our hamstrings, glutes and adductors in the motion. This video shows some good cues for doing just that.

Deadlift: if you don't feel your hamstrings working like crazy on deadlifts, you're doing something very very wrong. Only thing I can guess is that you are yanking it up with your back, which is not only horribly inefficient, but also dangerous. Again, read the chapter on deadlifts in SS. The primary role of your back muscles in the lift is to keep your back rigid in full extension. The weight is lifted first by your quads (while the bar is below your knees) and then by driving your hips forward with your hamstrings and glutes (when the bar is above your knees). I suppose if you're doing the latter part using your back, then you won't feel it as much in your hamstrings, but it's impossible to tell without a video.

 

[EvilYoda]

The SQ and DL definitely should engage your hamstrings! I'm with brikis in that your form is probably off (I have the same problem with my squat...once I moved up in weight, I reverted back to a bad quad-heavy form, so I'm completely redoing it) - the second you change things up and properly utilize the posterior chain, you'll know it. It feels very noticeably different, so if you have to question whether or not you're using them, you're probably not.

Read through SS, watch some videos, post here.

 

[NGC_604]

Originally posted by: EvilYoda
The SQ and DL definitely should engage your hamstrings! I'm with brikis in that your form is probably off (I have the same problem with my squat...once I moved up in weight, I reverted back to a bad quad-heavy form, so I'm completely redoing it) - the second you change things up and properly utilize the posterior chain, you'll know it. It feels very noticeably different, so if you have to question whether or not you're using them, you're probably not.

Read through SS, watch some videos, post here.

Yeah I'm having the same problems as Blah. I started doing the glute stretches mentioned in the thread you made about utilizing the posterior chain, but I need to re-read SS again to see about using my glutes when squatting.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: TallBill
What did you do to isolate the hamstrings? Mine are pretty freakish just from deadlifting, sometimes I'll do good mornings on my squat days.

single leg curls. not sure what the machine is called.
you basically straddle the machine in doggy style position. you support yourself with one leg, and curl a roller with another leg which is attached to weights at the bottom by belts/cables.

kinda like this, but not really

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: brikis98
First of all, soreness is not an indicator of anything. It is possible that your hamstrings just don't get sore easily, but are still being used plenty. On the other hand, if you don't feel yourself using them at all during squats and deadlifts, and you think they are still weak, then probably means your form is wrong. Without some videos to see, it's hard to guess exactly why, but here are some pointers:

Squat: you aren't using hip drive. Instead, you're probably doing a leg press like motion with a weight on your back, which is a very quad dominant and inefficient motion. If you have the SS book, re-read the squat chapter. If you don't have the book, get it! To have a strong squat, and to build the kind of strength that transfers well to the real world, you've got to engage our hamstrings, glutes and adductors in the motion. This video shows some good cues for doing just that.

Deadlift: if you don't feel your hamstrings working like crazy on deadlifts, you're doing something very very wrong. Only thing I can guess is that you are yanking it up with your back, which is not only horribly inefficient, but also dangerous. Again, read the chapter on deadlifts in SS. The primary role of your back muscles in the lift is to keep your back rigid in full extension. The weight is lifted first by your quads (while the bar is below your knees) and then by driving your hips forward with your hamstrings and glutes (when the bar is above your knees). I suppose if you're doing the latter part using your back, then you won't feel it as much in your hamstrings, but it's impossible to tell without a video.

but i got super sore after doing curls (still sore today), and i only had 50# on it which is why i think they are weak.

i'll try out the hip drive at the gym tomorrow. i'm too sore to jump back into it today.

DL: it's weak. i'm squatting more than i DL (and i do deep squats, not the pussy ones)

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
but i got super sore after doing curls (still sore today), and i only had 50# on it which is why i think they are weak.

i'll try out the hip drive at the gym tomorrow. i'm too sore to jump back into it today.

DL: it's weak. i'm squatting more than i DL (and i do deep squats, not the pussy ones)

If you squat more than you DL and your DL isn't working your hamstrings, then your form is almost definitely wrong. Read the DL chapter in SS before you hurt yourself. Also, watch this video on the deadlift set-up and this Stronglifts deadlift tutorial (also check out the "Articles You Might Also Like" at the bottom of that page).

Also, are you doing power cleans as part of the routine?

 

[StageLeft]

I've never really hit hams on squats. Deads I can but the best for me would be good mornings.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: brikis98
If you squat more than you DL and your DL isn't working your hamstrings, then your form is almost definitely wrong. Read the DL chapter in SS before you hurt yourself. Also, watch this video on the deadlift set-up and this Stronglifts deadlift tutorial (also check out the "Articles You Might Also Like" at the bottom of that page).

Also, are you doing power cleans as part of the routine?

i tried for a few weeks but that move is too technical for me. i can't seem to do them right.
i'm back to bent over rows.

sometimes i sub in deadlift high-pulls (basically a deadlift into a standing upright row).
gets my legs, back, shoulder, etc. all at once. what do u think about that?

 

[gramboh]

Try doing higher rep deadlifts with lower weight. E.g. if your 5 rep max is 315, try 225/185 for 10 or 20 reps. I find higher reps you are going to feel it in your hamstrings and it can be helpful for form work.

Also try sprinting if you want to wake up the hamstrings.

As for the SDHP, I don't like the movement personally, and I would never go heavy on it. I prefer KB swings for high rep explosive hip extension and cleans for low rep explosive work.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

yes, i've done hard sprints and have had my hams hurt the day after. but is that the same as building them up through strength training?

what are KB swings?
and what's the SD in SDHP? standing deadlift?

 

[katank]

KB swing is kettlebell swings. SDHP is sumo deadlift high pull. Both are frequently used Crossfit exercises. http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

Are you doing low bar squats (Mark Rippetoe style)? That should be very glute and hamstring dominant.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
i tried for a few weeks but that move is too technical for me. i can't seem to do them right.
i'm back to bent over rows.

sometimes i sub in deadlift high-pulls (basically a deadlift into a standing upright row).
gets my legs, back, shoulder, etc. all at once. what do u think about that?

Power cleans are indeed difficult to learn, but very doable. Read the power clean chapter in SS, Olympic Weightlifting, the Stronglifts power clean guide and watch as many power clean videos as you can. After that, practice practice practice. And then practice some more. Post videos online for form critique. Do the motion 1-2 times per week for 2-3 months, and I assure you that you'll get better at it. As a result, your posterior chain (including hamstrings) will get a lot stronger and you'll develop explosive power. In fact, knowing how to open your hips up quickly - which is exactly what the o-lifts teach you to do - is probably the single most athletic thing you can learn. Almost every action we do involves this, from jumping, to punching, to throwing, and the o-lifts are one of the best ways to get better at it.

And no, bent over rows are not a good substitute at all. They don't develop explosive strength, they don't work the posterior chain and they have virtually no relation to power cleans at all. Deadlift high pulls are also not a good substitute. It's hard to do them with any real amount of weight and if you do them wrong and actually do a an upright row at the top of the motion, you are endangering your shoulder. Power cleans are a far better choice and are WELL worth the time it takes to learn them.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
i tried for a few weeks but that move is too technical for me. i can't seem to do them right.
i'm back to bent over rows.

sometimes i sub in deadlift high-pulls (basically a deadlift into a standing upright row).
gets my legs, back, shoulder, etc. all at once. what do u think about that?

Power cleans are indeed difficult to learn, but very doable. Read the power clean chapter in SS, Olympic Weightlifting, the Stronglifts power clean guide and watch as many power clean videos as you can. After that, practice practice practice. And then practice some more. Post videos online for form critique. Do the motion 1-2 times per week for 2-3 months, and I assure you that you'll get better at it. As a result, your posterior chain (including hamstrings) will get a lot stronger and you'll develop explosive power. In fact, knowing how to open your hips up quickly - which is exactly what the o-lifts teach you to do - is probably the single most athletic thing you can learn. Almost every action we do involves this, from jumping, to punching, to throwing, and the o-lifts are one of the best ways to get better at it.

And no, bent over rows are not a good substitute at all. They don't develop explosive strength, they don't work the posterior chain and they have virtually no relation to power cleans at all. Deadlift high pulls are also not a good substitute. It's hard to do them with any real amount of weight and if you do them wrong and actually do a an upright row at the top of the motion, you are endangering your shoulder. Power cleans are a far better choice and are WELL worth the time it takes to learn them.

Sadly, all this is true; but what happens when people don't have access to olympic weights? I'm in this position and I find deloading non-olympic weights after a power clean to stress my rotator cuff badly. I would love to continue and pursue power cleans since they are so great for speed, power, function, etc. However, I have no room to buy my own and have no facility nearby that has some I can use.

 

[brikis98]

If you don't have acess to bumper plates, Olympic lifts are unfortunately hard to do. You need to be able to dump the weight safely in case you miss a rep. And yes, it's much easier to just dump a weight at the end of a rep instead of painfully trying to loser it down. So if your gym doesn't have bumpers, you can't find a gym that does and can't get some of your own, then you're probably best off avoiding o lifts. In that scenario, extra posterior chain work (such as good mornings, rdl's or glute ham raises) combined with sprinting and plyometrics may be your best alternatives.

 

[gramboh]

Sorry OP, you said deadlift high pull and I thought you meant SDHP (CrossFit movement). Deadlift to upright row is a bad idea because the deadlift will be too light, or the upright row will be too heavy (and yes there is a risk of impingment). If you mean olympic lifting style clean deadlift to shrug (clean pull) it is useful.

Re: weightlifting without bumpers. I have no access to bumpers and have been doing oly lifting as part of CF the last 9 months. It sucks, it really does. The real problem is with snatches, it's impossible to push yourself since you have to miss lifts front and back to do so, and there is no way to safely control the weight down. With cleans it's not a huge deal until you get heavy. For me, I've only gone to 225 which I can control down without any pain (but it wastes energy), basically I drop the weight from the rack position to my thighs with kind of a mini jump and absorb the energy with hips/knees (hard to explain, you can see some oly lifters do it in videos where they are doing multiple reps quickly) then I more or less drop it under control from the knees like a deadlift. Jerks, once you practice you can catch them in the front ot back using knees to absorb without pain.

Again, the biggest problem for me is the mental block of having to go slow on progression because missing anything is bad (snatches unacceptable, cleans and jerks I can usually control enough to avoid breaking equipment). Also my gym has a platform which helps a bit (yeah, platform and no bumpers, fucking morons running the show).

 

[SigArms08]

Straight legged deadlifts will get those hamstrings going. This is one of those exercises where form is critical, so seek out some help from a qualified individual to get the correct motion down.