Is it illegal to refuse the pledge in public schools?

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MacBaine

Banned
Aug 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: FallenHero
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: juancferrer
in our school we say the pledge everyday in the classroom. I never stand, and of course i don't say it either. When there's a special function or a meeting, then i stand, but dont' say it

And what's your problem? I don't care if you say it or not, but at least stand up and show some respect for the country that you live in and the people who died protecting your freedom.

I never stood or said it in high school. That doesnt mean I don't respect the country, but merely I don't respect this sudden outburst of "we love our country, so now we will say the pledge because of the events of september 11th." And I asked the administration, "Where was the pledge Sept 10th?" No answer. So bite me. How about you respect my freedom NOT to say it, as I realize people have died for my right to not say it, and I respect yours to stand up and say it, as that is a right you are also granted by those who have died.

As much as I know and respect you, I still don't understand the problem. I dislike bandwagon patriots as much as the next person, as well as the sudden outburst of patriotism after 9/11. In high school we said the pledge once a week on monday. Nothing changed after 9/11 as far as that.

It is your right to not stand up, I am not arguing that. But just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I am not respecting your rights. I don't have to repsect your decisions, even if it is your right to do so. Sitting down during the pledge has nothing to do with exercising your rights as a citizen of this country, it's just being disrespectful.

Standing for the flag, saluting as it passes in a parade, raising/lowering it every day, not leaving it out in the rain, not letting it touch the ground, etc., are all signs of respect not specifically for the government which it repsesents, but for the countless people who have died in our relatively short history protecting our freedoms and your rights. If you don't respect the country, at least repsect the people who gave you the right to be disrespectful.

And if you don't want to respect the flag, fine, but don't turn around and tell me you respect the men and women who died carrying it, and were buried under it.
 

BillyBatson

Diamond Member
May 13, 2001
5,715
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no it is not illegal.
i remember in the 5th grade there was a girl who didn't have to say it and at the time i didn't understand why.
i have been out of HS for 4 years now :)

and to MacBaine.... couldn't have said it better myself!!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: MacBaine
As much as I know and respect you, I still don't understand the problem. I dislike bandwagon patriots as much as the next person, as well as the sudden outburst of patriotism after 9/11. In high school we said the pledge once a week on monday. Nothing changed after 9/11 as far as that.

It is your right to not stand up, I am not arguing that. But just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I am not respecting your rights. I don't have to repsect your decisions, even if it is your right to do so. Sitting down during the pledge has nothing to do with exercising your rights as a citizen of this country, it's just being disrespectful.

Standing for the flag, saluting as it passes in a parade, raising/lowering it every day, not leaving it out in the rain, not letting it touch the ground, etc., are all signs of respect not specifically for the government which it repsesents, but for the countless people who have died in our relatively short history protecting our freedoms and your rights. If you don't respect the country, at least repsect the people who gave you the right to be disrespectful.

And if you don't want to respect the flag, fine, but don't turn around and tell me you respect the men and women who died carrying it, and were buried under it.
Good post
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,047
18
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MacBaine
As much as I know and respect you, I still don't understand the problem. I dislike bandwagon patriots as much as the next person, as well as the sudden outburst of patriotism after 9/11. In high school we said the pledge once a week on monday. Nothing changed after 9/11 as far as that.

It is your right to not stand up, I am not arguing that. But just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I am not respecting your rights. I don't have to repsect your decisions, even if it is your right to do so. Sitting down during the pledge has nothing to do with exercising your rights as a citizen of this country, it's just being disrespectful.

Standing for the flag, saluting as it passes in a parade, raising/lowering it every day, not leaving it out in the rain, not letting it touch the ground, etc., are all signs of respect not specifically for the government which it repsesents, but for the countless people who have died in our relatively short history protecting our freedoms and your rights. If you don't respect the country, at least repsect the people who gave you the right to be disrespectful.

And if you don't want to respect the flag, fine, but don't turn around and tell me you respect the men and women who died carrying it, and were buried under it.
Good post

Indeed. Excellent.
 

MacBaine

Banned
Aug 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MacBaine
As much as I know and respect you, I still don't understand the problem. I dislike bandwagon patriots as much as the next person, as well as the sudden outburst of patriotism after 9/11. In high school we said the pledge once a week on monday. Nothing changed after 9/11 as far as that.

It is your right to not stand up, I am not arguing that. But just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I am not respecting your rights. I don't have to repsect your decisions, even if it is your right to do so. Sitting down during the pledge has nothing to do with exercising your rights as a citizen of this country, it's just being disrespectful.

Standing for the flag, saluting as it passes in a parade, raising/lowering it every day, not leaving it out in the rain, not letting it touch the ground, etc., are all signs of respect not specifically for the government which it repsesents, but for the countless people who have died in our relatively short history protecting our freedoms and your rights. If you don't respect the country, at least repsect the people who gave you the right to be disrespectful.

And if you don't want to respect the flag, fine, but don't turn around and tell me you respect the men and women who died carrying it, and were buried under it.
Good post

I occasionally have 1 or 2 inbetween my otherwise sarcastic insults.
 

Brule

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2004
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As someone who is young enough to remember school and old enough to look back on it more objectively, this discussion struck a nerve.

If you're in school now you may fall into one of two groups. To rebel is a neutral act, and what you rebel against makes it moral or immoral, along with your intenetions. The first step is to sit back and take a look at the whole picture, and chose your battles wisely. Complaining and moaning about every little thing will get you nowhere, but at the same time don't speak words you don't mean.

I dealt with a prayer at my graduation ceremony as an athiest by not participating. The prayer was conducted under a veil of "free speech" by a student who never had that free speech throughout their high school years. I had a Health teacher who said we shouldn't get tatoos because our bodies were sacred gifts of god. In retrospect both myself and the truely religious (some of my best friends, one gave the prayer) were both outcasts from a school which only cared about control.

We lived in a culture of control. We were told not to even use the word columbine in my senior year. As to the previous comments about respecting one's elders, that respect is not automatic. I hold several of my HS teachers in high regard, yet I would not even talk to several others. I was stupid in high school, not in that I didn't know about the world, but I was constantly fooled into thinking that my teachers were on a different level than I. It was only later in my last year or so that I realized the truth and developed mutually respectful relationships with the good teachers and ignored the bad. If you're in HS now my advice would be to do the same.

I do not have children although I may someday. I do worry about my family members that are still in school. My innocent niece told her father that he was doing drugs and was a bad person because he had beer in the fridge. She was horrified by the teachings in her school which took the responsibility of "learning discipline and respect" and undermined the authority of her family. My family taught me right from wrong, and I'll be damned if a school interferes with those strict teachings. I managed to turn out okay and today hold by own beliefs about drugs, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, religion, etc.

Several posts in this thread have been nothing more than a kneejerk reaction. From "skool suks" to "stupid kids" the difference between a inhalent using bullying punk and a young, smart person of sound mind has not been addressed. After all this ranting my opinion on the original question is this. If you don't want to do the pledge because you want to rebel(with no reason) you have no moral bounds, and nobody should care. However, if you have a reason to not recite the pledge(with or w/o "under God") based on your own set of values, you should not be forced to do so. I personally will never say the pledge again, as I have moral issues with its wording, not with the country it supposedly represents.

Also democracy does not equal freedom. Freedom is the state of not being restricted in an area. Democracy is just a form of government, not a set of values. A capitalist government (elected or otherwise) would hold freedom dear. A facist or repressive government (elected of otherwise) dismisses freedom as a secondary concern.
 

Brule

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2004
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The pledge itself should not be considered equal to our nation or our flag. It was written by a socialist, and the words "under God" added to further seperate ourselves from communist Russia. Our nation is not perfect, yet the ideas upon which it was founded are noble. For this reason I respect the nation, and the symbol of that nation in our flag. The pledge is un-American as it pledges one's life to their country, which is the opposite of liberty. If one is in the military it is much different as you have freely given of your own free will, your freedom in respect to your country. If you want to pledge your life to the laws of our nation you may do so also, but if I do not it makes me no less of an American.
 

DJFuji

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 1999
3,643
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Originally posted by: tec699
I'll burn and spit on the American flag in front of a marine!!

I don't give a f*ck!!

...

j/k.......... :)


hahahaha...I read the first part of your post and i muttered to myself "yeah but you'll only be able to do it ONCE."
 

tenten

Junior Member
May 13, 2004
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haha, no one is our homeroom says anything, sure a few people mumble at times, but we dont actually say it, maybe its too early, maybe everyones tired, but maybe we just dont want to say it? i have nothing against it or for it either way, but just choose not to say it, its like one of those things - do you choose coke or pepsi? GIMME A COKE NOW!!! -

-tenten
 

MacBaine

Banned
Aug 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: tenten
haha, no one is our homeroom says anything, sure a few people mumble at times, but we dont actually say it, maybe its too early, maybe everyones tired, but maybe we just dont want to say it? i have nothing against it or for it either way, but just choose not to say it, its like one of those things - do you choose coke or pepsi? GIMME A COKE NOW!!! -

-tenten

It's because it's not cool to say the pledge. I garauntee that is the *only* reason.
 

Brule

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: DJFuji
hahahaha...I read the first part of your post and i muttered to myself "yeah but you'll only be able to do it ONCE."

Yea, I'm good friends with a Marine. He's not the biggest guy but he's one of the few people I know that I am afraid of. It's nice to have guys like that to have your back.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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Originally posted by: TooOne21
I stand up and say the pledge every morning just to piss off the people who want to sit down.

I am calling the ACLU because it hurts my feelings that people do not stand for the pledge at school and the work place.

If I saw my pupils who were reciting the pledge everyday, I know they are with me and my country. In a disaster I would save those people before I would save the one who sits. They would do the same for me because we will want to save those who care for our centralized beliefs.
You're a sick man, and if by "my pupils", you mean you're a teacher.. you shouldn't be.

:|
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
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Originally posted by: MrCodeDude
If you don't want to stay and say the pledge, why are you here in the first place?

Show some respect for your country, a$$hole. We had this guy in 5th grade who would not even stand and I went off on him. When I was called into the principals office and my parents were called in, my dad was defending me. It was fantastic :)

Pledging your allegiance to a flag is idiotic. Sometimes the people represented by the flag do bad things. Pledging yourself to certain ideals is not as stupid. Hypothetically, if you were a child in Germany in the 1920s, would you have said an equivalent pledge? If you think you should have had to, guess what? You just pledged yourself to a flag that would soon become the flag of Hitler.
 

jyates

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: CTho9305
Originally posted by: MrCodeDude
If you don't want to stay and say the pledge, why are you here in the first place?

Show some respect for your country, a$$hole. We had this guy in 5th grade who would not even stand and I went off on him. When I was called into the principals office and my parents were called in, my dad was defending me. It was fantastic :)

Pledging your allegiance to a flag is idiotic. Sometimes the people represented by the flag do bad things. Pledging yourself to certain ideals is not as stupid. Hypothetically, if you were a child in Germany in the 1920s, would you have said an equivalent pledge? If you think you should have had to, guess what? You just pledged yourself to a flag that would soon become the flag of Hitler.


Great analogy.....people are pledging themselves to their country....not their leaders and the
actions that they make while in office. Hitler got his, but Germany is still around, no?
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,795
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It's because you don't have to that you should.

The flag represents America. If someone comes along and changes the country, the flag will still represent all of our freedoms.

At least it will to me.
 

mstegall

Member
May 10, 2004
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i remember at my school everyone had to stand but you didnt have to say it if you wanted, personally im kinda glad im in college and i dont have to do that everyday.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
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Originally posted by: DrPizza
I make the students in my homeroom stand, but I couldn't care one way or the other if they actually say the pledge. However, I judge the students' character on that. I hope a student who doesn't recite the pledge or is rude doesn't ever dare to ask me for a recommendation for something someday.

What if the kid is good in everything else, but makes it a point not to recite the pledge? Maybe they have a reason.

Overall, I think that if you don't recite the pledge just to be disrespectful, then I think it might be a good idea to find another country to get your education from.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: Mandos
Originally posted by: TooOne21
I stand up and say the pledge every morning just to piss off the people who want to sit down.

I am calling the ACLU because it hurts my feelings that people do not stand for the pledge at school and the work place.

If I saw my pupils who were reciting the pledge everyday, I know they are with me and my country. In a disaster I would save those people before I would save the one who sits. They would do the same for me because we will want to save those who care for our centralized beliefs.

I'm sorry but you are what brings America down to the level that everyone looks at america as. Your ignorance and biased beliefs make wars and hate and lies spring up in the world. You are exactly why I don't like USA. I really wish I had the money to move somewhere else. I am disgusted with being amidst such stupidity.



Dude this is the second time you've said you want to move. Just get out of Ohio and hit the east coast or even the west coast.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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I always stood out of respect, but never recited because I disagree with the phrase "under God".

Never got in trouble.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
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I stood and bowed my head for a moment of silence during the pledge. And this took place every day of school from Kindergarten up through Senior year in High School, I never once got in trouble. And the only reason I didn't say the pledge is because I would spend those few seconds in reflection and thought about those that came before me.
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MAME
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I pledge allegance to the flag
of the United States of America.
And to the republic, for which it stands,
One nation, indivisible
with liberty and justice for all.

bahahaa, it's only 1 sentence dummy!
What ever you worthless bandwidth wasting POS, I copied and pasted it from another post in this thread and omitted "Under God":roll:
Now run along and create another one of your patented mind numbing threads

:heart:
 

lMlHuxley

Banned
May 10, 2004
487
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I disagree with a lot of the things this country does but I do love living here and I love the freedoms we have. I stand at the pledge of allegiance. If you don't agree with what we are doing now, stand for the pledge for those who fought to make our country free. Stand if you care for those men who died in world war 2. There is something you love in this country and you should show it.
 

flashbacck

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2001
1,921
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Originally posted by: DrPizza
I make the students in my homeroom stand, but I couldn't care one way or the other if they actually say the pledge. However, I judge the students' character on that. I hope a student who doesn't recite the pledge or is rude doesn't ever dare to ask me for a recommendation for something someday.

I think you might be misjudging if you make decisions about a kid's character based on whether or not they say the pledge.
 

Brule

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2004
1,358
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What sort of age are we talking about here? I only did it in elementry, but not in jr high or high school. I never thought about it when I was little, just like the tooth fairy or the facts that cops are always your friend, etc. By the age of high school the "do not care" attitude would have prevailed even if it was still done. How far along did most of you say the pledge regularly?(and to the teacher who posted, I think it matters what grade(s) you teach to put your statement in proper prospective)