Is it ever legal to fight back against a cop?

[rudeguy]

This has been stuck on my brain for about a week now. Is it ever legal to fight back against a cop? What if it was an undercover? What if you knew that you hadn't done anything wrong and your rights were being violated?

 

[Kirby]

It may be legal, but it's not smart. 😛

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

You's gonna get tazed brah.

 

[mugs]

It may be legal, but it's not smart. 😛

This.

Yes it is legal (at least in some states) to resist a wrongful arrest. But it probably won't turn out well.

Wrongful arrest does not mean you're arrested despite being innocent.

 

[chusteczka]

Of course it is illegal. If you did nothing wrong, you get to prove it in court.

 

[her209]

You inconvenienced the cop with your presence and therefore deserve a beating.

 

[Matthiasa]

I would rather not risk messing with someone who might be trigger happy.

 

[Lonyo]

Do it somewhere on camera so you have proof.

 

[ussfletcher]

I have often wondered this as well, and I have come to the conclusion that if you do fight back in any way you will get boned.

Therefore I think we should change our laws to protect people's right to self defense against police as well.

 

[FirNaTine]

This.

Yes it is legal (at least in some states) to resist a wrongful arrest. But it probably won't turn out well.

You would most likely need to be able to PROVE that is a wrongful arrest, and MAYBE that the officer knew it was a wrongful arrest.

In other words, if you are in the area of a violent felony and match the description of the offender, you can be cuffed/detained even though you may have done nothing. So you may know you are innocent, however they do not. You may feel it is a wrongful detention, but in this case the officer has the right to use force to subdue a potential offender even if it turns out they were wrong. Basically they have to be acting in good faith. You would probably have no idea what was going on.

Remember also that if an officer feels like they are losing the fight and may lose control of their weapon, they can use lethal force to stop it.

So unless the officer gives indication that they KNOW what they are doing is wrong, AND you feel that complying will endanger your life, you should probably go along with it and deal with the outcome later.

Also realize that barring some really strange circumstances, additional responding officers WILL be arriving, and will back up the one you are fighting with. So say on the off chance you win the altercation, now what? Play that scenario out and see if you can come up with a good ending.

 

[QueBert]

I have often wondered this as well, and I have come to the conclusion that if you do fight back in any way you will get boned.

Therefore I think we should change our laws to protect people's right to self defense against police as well.

QTF, there are enough bad cops out there to make this a very valid point. The problem is if the laws change to protect us, I don't think me fighting back against a crooked cop who's out to fuck me up is going to end well at all for me.

 

[mugs]

You would most likely need to be able to PROVE that is a wrongful arrest, and MAYBE that the officer knew it was a wrongful arrest.

In other words, if you are in the area of a violent felony and match the description of the offender, you can be cuffed/detained even though you may have done nothing. So you may know you are innocent, however they do not. You may feel it is a wrongful detention, but in this case the officer has the right to use force to subdue a potential offender even if it turns out they were wrong. Basically they have to be acting in good faith. You would probably have no idea what was going on.

Remember also that if an officer feels like they are losing the fight and may lose control of their weapon, they can use lethal force to stop it.

So unless the officer gives indication that they KNOW what they are doing is wrong, AND you feel that complying will endanger your life, you should probably go along with it and deal with the outcome later.

Also realize that barring some really strange circumstances, additional responding officers WILL be arriving, and will back up the one you are fighting with. So say on the off chance you win the altercation, now what? Play that scenario out and see if you can come up with a good ending.

Yeah I summarized all that with "But it probably won't turn out well." 😉

 

[rudeguy]

QTF, there are enough bad cops out there to make this a very valid point. The problem is if the laws change to protect us, I don't think me fighting back against a crooked cop who's out to fuck me up is going to end well at all for me.

Right. I would never do it...I just couldn't come up with a situation in my mind where it would be a reasonable thing to do. But then again, there are tons of people sitting in jail for resisting arrest charges when the only thing they got arrested for was resisting arrest.

You guys know that I almost always stick up for cops on here...this situation just got stuck in my brain.

 

[mmntech]

I think it is legal, but only if you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was self defence. Not the wisest thing to do though since the guy has weapons.

 

[rudder]

Let's see... who do you think the judge will listen to... you or the po po? Unless someone videotaped the whole thing.... even then though the cop will not be in trouble but will be pissed for you causing him trouble then come after you.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Let's see... who do you think the judge will listen to... you or the po po? Unless someone videotaped the whole thing.... even then though the cop will not be in trouble but will be pissed for you causing him trouble then come after you.

This.



Ever seen the video of the drunk girl who yelled at the cop, he went and turned his car (to make sure it wasn't on camera) and then beat the crap out of her while telling her to stop resisting (even though she.... surprise surprise... wasn't resisting). Imagine if she had fought back? And if it wasn't on camera? It would've been assaulting a LEO or worse..



It's a losing proposition. Even if you win the "fight" you will lose in court. Cops know to turn of their blues/move their cars so you're out of view.



Ugh.

 

[HannibalX]

Innocent people fight the police all the time, most of them end up dead, sometimes it works out for them though.

Kathryn Johnston

November 21, 2006—GA

Acting on a tip from a confidential informant, police conduct a no-knock raid on the home of 88 year old Kathryn Johnston.


Johnston, described by neighbors as feeble and afraid to open her door at night, opens fire on officers as they burst into her home. Three of the officers are wounded before Johnston is shot and killed.



Relatives say that Johnston lived alone, and legally owned a gun because she was fearful of intruders. She lived in the home for 17 years.



Police claim that they find a small amount of marijuana in Johnston's home, but none of the cocaine, computers, money, or equipment described in the affidavit that was used to obtain a warrant.


There are now allegations of a police cover-up.

The Lewis Cauthorne Raid

November 19, 2002—MD

On January 7, 2003, prosecutors in Baltimore announce they will not press charges against Lewis S. Cauthorne for firing a .45-caliber handgun at police who broke down his door during a no-knock raid in November 2002.

Cauthorne, at home with his mother, girlfriend, and three year-old daughter at the time of the raid, heard screaming when police broke open the door to his home and began searching for drugs. The raiding officers never identified themselves.


Prosecutors later determined that Cauthorne, who had no arrest record and whose father had been robbed and killed as a cab driver, had reason to believe his life was in danger when he fired and wounded three of the raiding police officers. Police fired back, but no one inside the home was hit.


Police were acting on a tip from a confidential informant, and claim to have found six bags with traces of marijuana, empty vials, a razor with cocaine residue, and two scales in Cauthorne's home. But the ensuing investigation found peculiarities with the evidence that precluded Cauthorne from being charged even with a misdemeanor. For example, there was no record of where exactly in the home the drugs were found, and crime lab technicians were told by police not to photograph the evidence.


The officers who conducted the raid were also unavailable for interviews from investigators until days or weeks after the raid took place. Though never charged, Cauthorne served more than six weeks in jail before the charges against him were dismissed.

Officer Ron Jones

December 26, 2001—MS

On December 26, 2001, police in Prentiss, Mississippi serve search warrants on two apartments in a yellow duplex. One apartment is occupied by Jamie Smith, named in the warrant as a "known drug dealer." The other is occupied by Cory Maye, who has no criminal record, and isn't named in the warrants.



At the time of the raid, Maye is asleep with his 18-month old daughter. After trying and failing to kick down the front door, police move to the back, and break down the door to Maye's bedroom. Maye is lying in the dark with his daughter, clutching a handgun. According to his trial testimony, he is unaware that the men breaking into his home are the police.



Officer Ron Jones is the first police officer to enter. Maye fires three times, striking Jones once. Maye's bullet hit Jones in the abdomen, just below his bulletproof vest. Jones dies a short time later. Police find only traces of marijuana in Maye's apartment, after first telling reporters they'd found no drugs at all.



Officer Jones was the only officer who conducted the investigation leading up to the raid, and apparently kept no notes of his investigation. According to the district attorney and prosecutor in the Maye case, all evidence of the investigation leading to the raid on Maye's home "died with Officer Jones," who is also the son of the Prentiss police chief.



In January 2004, Cory Maye was convicted of capital murder for the death of Jones, and sentenced to die by lethal injection.

Deputy Keith Ruiz

February 15, 2001—TX

On February 15, 2001, police raid the Del Valle, Texas mobile home of Edwin Delamora, where he lives with his wife and two children. As two deputies beat down his door with a battering ram, Delamora fires through the door, fearing he is under attack. One bullet from his gun strikes and kills sheriff's deputy Keith Ruiz.


Delamora had no previous criminal record, and his defense says the raid on his home was influenced by an anonymous informant who turned out to be the brother of two sheriff's deputies. Information about the informant's relationship with the police was suppressed at trial.


Delamora was eventually convicted of capital murder, and sentenced to life in prison. Police found less than an ounce of methamphetamine and one ounce of marijuana in his home. Prosecutors declined to seek the death penalty because of substantial doubt about whether or not Delamora knew the people outside his door were police. That decision sparked heavy criticism from Texas Attorney General John Cornyn (now a U.S. Senator), who moved for a law requiring the death penality to be an option in any capital murder case.

Time magazine would later report that people in the community were suspicious of the narcotics task force, describing the team's general attitude as "those task-force guys were Rambo wannabes." The same task force conducted the raid that ended with the death of Tony Martinez, who had done nothing wrong, and for the raid on the home of Sandra Smith, after police mistook ragweed for marijuana plants.

May 16, 2003—NY



On May 16, 2003, a dozen New York City police officers storm an apartment building in Harlem on a no-knock warrant. They're acting on a tip from a confidential informant, who told them a convicted felon was dealing drugs and guns from the sixth floor.



There is no felon. The only resident in the building is Alberta Spruill, described by friends as a "devout churchgoer." Before entering the apartment, police deploy a flashbang grenade. The blinding, deafening explosion stuns the 57 year-old city worker, who then slips into cardiac arrest. She dies two hours later.



A police investigation would later find that the drug dealer the raid team was looking for had been arrested days earlier. He couldn't possibly have been at Spruill's apartment because he was in custody. The officers who conducted the raid did no investigation to corroborate the informant's tip. A police source told the New York Daily News that the informant in the Spruill case had offered police tips on several occasions, none of which had led to an arrest. His record was so poor, in fact, that he was due to be dropped from the city's informant list.



Nevertheless, his tip on the ex-con in Spruill's building was taken to the Manhattan district attorney's office, who approved of the application for a no-knock entry. It was then taken to a judge, who issued the warrant resulting in Spruill's death. From tip to raid, the entire "investigation" and execution were over in a matter of hours.



Spruill's death triggered an outpouring of outrage and emotion in New York and inspired dozens of victims of botched drug raids, previously afraid to tell their stories, to come forward.



Still, the number of real, tangible reforms to result from the raid were few. Though the number of no-knocks in New York has by most indications declined, there's still no real oversight or transparency in how they're granted and carried out. And victims of botched raids still have no real recourse, other than to hope the media gets hold of their story.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

[SunnyD]

Let's see... cops usually have a gun. People usually do not. Legal or not, you have to ask yourself one question, "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

 

[jlee]

Not in NH.

642:2 Resisting Arrest or Detention. – A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when the person knowingly or purposely physically interferes with a person recognized to be a law enforcement official, including a probation or parole officer, seeking to effect an arrest or detention of the person or another regardless of whether there is a legal basis for the arrest. A person is guilty of a class B felony if the act of resisting arrest or detention causes serious bodily injury, as defined in RSA 625:11, VI, to another person. Verbal protestations alone shall not constitute resisting arrest or detention.

Right. I would never do it...I just couldn't come up with a situation in my mind where it would be a reasonable thing to do. But then again, there are tons of people sitting in jail for resisting arrest charges when the only thing they got arrested for was resisting arrest.

You guys know that I almost always stick up for cops on here...this situation just got stuck in my brain.

We took a guy for that (among other things) a week or two ago when he refused to leave a building with an active fire alarm. If he hadn't resisted, we would've walked him out and left him alone. Nope...that was too easy, I guess.

 

[Murloc]

if he's trying to kill you without you menacing him in any way I guess it's legal.

 

[BudAshes]

The cops hold all the power with evidence. They can easily plant anything on you to make it look like there was a reason to be knocking your door down.

 

[uberman]

Cops testimony unimpeachable...What they say trumps you every time. Yes cops do a lot of illegal stuff. And I've observed one turning in a false police report 6 months ago.

 

[Arkaign]

No-knock warrants should *ONLY* ever be used in cases where it's a matter of life or death (ie; we know for a fact that a kidnapped victim is being held at this location by a perp, and we want to get in with the best chance of surprise).

Rambo cops are the exception, not the rule, but I really have no sympathy for them when they get killed doing stupid ass shit like that.

It's like Waco, they knew that Koresh took frequent trips outside of the compound, they could have picked him up peacefully in town and arranged for a safe search of the compound, but no, they just had to kick in windows while dressed like stormtroopers with fully automatic weapons. Brilliant. That's exactly the right tactic to use against a bunch of presumably armed paranoid whackadoodles with children present.

Law enforcement in our country is by and large a vast majority of good people doing hard work, but they need to step up more sensible tactics and end the 'thin blue line' coverup bullshit.

 

[Zebo]

Fighting back is what courts are for.

 

[Arkaign]

Fighting back is what courts are for.

Our courts are broken as well. Far too often, guilty rich people and guilty cops get off, if things even get that far.

41 rounds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo