Is it a design error if a section of freeway allows water to pool up in the middle of the road?

[brainhulk]

Isn't it supposed to be designed to drain water towards the sides? I hit the water in the middle lane, going about 65-70 mph. I thought to myself, damn this can cause an accident one day because the pooling water is not obviously visible. Plus i don't think many people would expect it.

I guess the building contractors could have made the error also.

 

[lxskllr]

Someone screwed up. Either the plans were wrong, or it was built wrong. You don't usually see something like that from the plans unless you get a complex convergence of geometries, but it happens. Normal straight road, it was built wrong.

 

[brainhulk]

Someone screwed up. Either the plans were wrong, or it was built wrong. You don't usually see something like that from the plans unless you get a complex convergence of geometries, but it happens. Normal straight road, it was built wrong.

Yeah it was normal straight 4 lane freeway. I had to do a bunch of micro corrections just to keep the car straight. Kinda scary

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Depends on a lot of things. A single drainage ditch in the middle is cheaper than one on each side. If water is pooling in the left lanes along a concrete barrier then it means the weep holes are plugged.

 

[brainhulk]

Depends on a lot of things. A single drainage ditch in the middle is cheaper than one on each side. If water is pooling in the left lanes along a concrete barrier then it means the weep holes are plugged.

Yeah i know about the left sides pooling up, but i was in the middle lane. Down the road, i hit more and it appeared the pooling spanned across all lanes or more towards the middle

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Yeah i know about the left sides pooling up, but i was in the middle lane. Down the road, i hit more and the pooling spanned across all lanes.

Ah I misunderstood. Middle lane of 4 each direction. Lanes can develop ruts where water can pool, usually means the road needs to be resurfaced. Could also mean the concrete base has failed and sunk in the middle. So no it's not supposed to happen, but can.

 

[BoomerD]

Yep, excess or unexpected ground water can cause sinking of the ground under the roadbase layer, could als be something as simple as a couple of grade wire stakes being slightly off...leading to a slight low spot in the concrete. Yes...it's something that SHOULD not happen...but it does. Sadly, it usually takes more than just a few accidents before the highway department will fix the problem.

 

[Eno Safirey]

The engineers need to evaluate the compaction before the concrete crews start setting the forms. When the ground settles unevenly it can create dips or flat areas that pool water. When you see those huge motor scapers going back and forth, they are compacting the soil and spreading more fill to even out the base. Things can get tricky with different types of soil, grade angles, curves, etc.

Most government projects are lowest bid. Sometimes costs need to be cut...hurry up the construction to get those bonuses!

 

[OccamsToothbrush]

Isn't it supposed to be designed to drain water towards the sides? I hit the water in the middle lane, going about 65-70 mph. I thought to myself, damn this can cause an accident one day because the pooling water is not obviously visible. Plus i don't think many people would expect it.

I guess the building contractors could have made the error also.

It's something that shouldn't happen on a new road. It's something that happens a lot as roadways age. Nothing is static, the Earth is constantly shifting and even perfectly built roads rise in some spots and settle in others. That's why you're supposed to use one tiny shred of common sense when driving and don't drive too fast for the conditions. If you can't safely negotiate a puddle on a road by either slowing down or safely changing lanes it's your own fault. Puddles happen, why have you not noticed them before?

 

[gill77]

We do have a problem with our infrastructure, but the problem probably is not with our engineering. We have been building roads for a long time in all types of environments with extremely long useful lives:

http://lgam.wikidot.com/council-asset-useful-life-tables

It's very difficult to believe that they are designed with no fore-thought of the earth beneath them resulting in roads built for hydroplaning. Intentionally building unsafe roads and leaving the rest to the common sense of drivers is not the structure that even our mostly dysfunctional local governments follow.

Under-funding our infrastructure is a problem. Incompetent or corrupt contractors are a problem. Designing roads that cannot shed water after only a couple years into their useful life, I don't think so.

 

[IronWing]

We do have a problem with our infrastructure, but the problem probably is not with our engineering. We have been building roads for a long time in all types of environments with extremely long useful lives:

http://lgam.wikidot.com/council-asset-useful-life-tables

It's very difficult to believe that they are designed with no fore-thought of the earth beneath them resulting in roads built for hydroplaning. Intentionally building unsafe roads and leaving the rest to the common sense of drivers is not the structure that even our mostly dysfunctional local governments follow.

Under-funding our infrastructure is a problem. Incompetent or corrupt contractors are a problem. Designing roads that cannot shed water after only a couple years into their useful life, I don't think so.

How about after a couple weeks? The county just redid the arterial I drive every day. The original road was built in the days of "blade and build" with no prepared roadbed, literally blade the desert and lay pavement. It went about as you would expect with high annual maintenance costs. The road now carries 50x the traffic it did when built so the county widened and repaved it, again with no proper roadbed. They did this last summer before the monsoons. Astute motorists such as myself noted that the contractors dammed up many of the natural drainages on the downhill side when they widened the road. Along come the monsoons and there is standing water everywhere. Nature bats last so water and gravity got their way and the dams are gone, along with some of the new pavement. The question comes again and again, where does incompetence end and corruption begin? Not coincidental by any means, Arizona last raised its gasoline tax in 1991.

 

[gill77]

How about after a couple weeks? The county just redid the arterial I drive every day. The original road was built in the days of "blade and build" with no prepared roadbed, literally blade the desert and lay pavement. It went about as you would expect with high annual maintenance costs. The road now carries 50x the traffic it did when built so the county widened and repaved it, again with no proper roadbed. They did this last summer before the monsoons. Astute motorists such as myself noted that the contractors dammed up many of the natural drainages on the downhill side when they widened the road. Along come the monsoons and there is standing water everywhere. Nature bats last so water and gravity got their way and the dams are gone, along with some of the new pavement. The question comes again and again, where does incompetence end and corruption begin? Not coincidental by any means, Arizona last raised its gasoline tax in 1991.

Wow. Fubar situation.

Do you believe that it was engineered that way or the contractor did not follow specs? Or perhaps all of the above.

It seems we are past the time when engineering firms designed bridges etc to fall, but we don't seem to be past the time of inspectors looking the other way.

If you are in Arizona, you may also be in El Norte. Mexican level corruption. Simplest things just cannot seem to be done right.

 

[lxskllr]

We have pretty good roads in MD. For the most part, stuff gets done right, and in a timely manner. I did some work around the NSA, and MD32 wasn't so great around there. The original road had almost no base. Seemed to hold up ok despite that. I don't know the history, but if I were to speculate, I'd guess it was slammed in during WWII, and just expanded as-needed.

edit:
wikipedia says that section was from the late 1960s. I can't explain that, other than it might have had heavy federal influence in building and/or reused some existing crappy road making a highway out of it.

 

[skyking]

corners are supered, that puts water in either direction. how it gets handled is the problem.

 

[whm1974]

Silly question, but why don't all of the the States simply do all the road work themselves? I've lived in Illinois all of my life and I have never seen anyone else but IDOT doing any of the road work at all.

 

[BoomerD]

Silly question, but why don't all of the the States simply do all the road work themselves? I've lived in Illinois all of my life and I have never seen anyone else but IDOT doing any of the road work at all.

Road maintenance is usually done by the state DOT, but road construction is (almost) always done by contractors.

 

[gill77]

Most of us probably have had a lot more experience with contractors during remodels and the like rather than road construction.

My experience has been that issues that arise are almost always related to workmanship, sometimes a product failure. I cannot remember the proper materials being applied strictly to code and there being an issue due to the code being inadequate.

 

[BoomerD]

I'm one of the few here who has worked on road construction. Skyking is another. Unfortunately, a contractor can do everything to the specs laid out by the managing authority and problems still arise. (although, shoddy contractors and inspectors can and do create a fuck-ton of problems)

 

[skyking]

often it is just a completely inadequate design that the contractor has to implement. State Route 167 South of Kent is like that it had huge water problems when they first did the center lanes.
it was just like the OP said, and his post immediately reminded me of it.

 

[gill77]

often it is just a completely inadequate design that the contractor has to implement. State Route 167 South of Kent is like that it had huge water problems when they first did the center lanes.
it was just like the OP said, and his post immediately reminded me of it.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like the OP is talking about water pooling in the middle lane. Sounds like there is no crown to the roadway surface. Isn't that paving 101?

Am I missing something?

 

[randay]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like the OP is talking about water pooling in the middle lane. Sounds like there is no crown to the roadway surface. Isn't that paving 101?

Am I missing something?

time makes fools of us all. the shape of the road changed over time due to reasons.

 

[whm1974]

Road maintenance is usually done by the state DOT, but road construction is (almost) always done by contractors.

Thanks. Can't see why the State's DOT can't do the construction themselves.

 

[Muse]

pretty much

 

[BoomerD]

Thanks. Can't see why the State's DOT can't do the construction themselves.

Manpower...and work quality. Some DOT folks are pretty decent at what they do, but they'd have to be experts at a whole lot of different types of heavy equipment to build freeways. Much easier to contract it out.

 

[gill77]

time makes fools of us all. the shape of the road changed over time due to reasons.

I suppose there are exceptions like cutting a road over an unknown fault line or something unusual like that. Roads should be engineered for decades. It should not be let's lay this road in and see what time will tell.

Be it a road, a driveway or a roof, slope is critical to water management. Imagine buying a new home with a nice, normal peaked roof that shed's water as designed. After a couple weeks that peak has turned into a valley and your soaking wet. The shingles may not last more than a decade or two, but that roof structure should be there pretty much permanently.

It could be design, materials or workmanship, but it is the home-builder who responsible, not some luck of the draw as a consequence of father time.