Is Healthcare a human right?

[between]

...

 

[GuitarDaddy]

why do Americans make this issue so complicated? It's pretty simple - you tax the people, then you use the taxes to provide universal, 'free' medical care & to everyone who wants it. This is what all the first world European countries do.

It's not the American people that complicate the issue, it's the powerful forces that profit so handsomely from our current system. And unfortunately these same folks that profit billions have undue influence on our political system through healthcare lobbyists that pump more cash into the pockets of legislators than the NRA, and they also spend billons spreading the fear of "evil socialist policies" amongst less informed voters.

 

[Tab]

Another failure.

Without law and order, there can be no freedom or individual rights. The very charter of the federal and state government is to protect the rights of the individual citizens and provide a common defense.

Really, and medicine can't be apart of this because?...

 

[soundforbjt]

Classic Version of the Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about. If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

A Modern Version of the Hippocratic Oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm. If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Here's what healthcare providers are forgetting, where does it talk about profiting? The original mentions fame, but not wealth.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Here's what healthcare providers are forgetting, where does it talk about payment?

Are you saying that doctors who are tens of thousands (perhaps even hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt with school loans should work for free?

 

[soundforbjt]

Are you saying that doctors who are tens of thousands (perhaps even hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt with school loans should work for free?

No, they should be paid. The original oath mentions fame, it does not mention wealth.

Doctors in France, for example, are paid well, but not like they are paid here. Doctor's pay are a small amont of the healthcare costs in the big picture.

Also, if you read the oath, it mentions sharing their knowledge with others, again it doesn't mention for profit.

 

[her209]

Aren't doctors (and lawyers) required to do pro bono work from time to time?

 

[OutHouse]

Yes, and we need a single payer system.

 

[QuantumPion]

As human beings we all have certain unalienable rights. Of the rights we possess, we have a right to delegate to government. For example, we all have a right to defend ourselves against predators. Since we possess that right, we can delegate it to government. In other words, we can say to government, "We have the right to defend ourselves but for a more orderly society, we give you the authority to defend us." By contrast, I don't possess the right to take your earnings for any reason. Since I have no such right, I cannot delegate it to government. If I did take your earnings for housing and medical services, it would rightfully be described as an act of theft. When government does it, it's still theft; the only difference is that it's legalized theft sanctioned by a majority vote.

-Walter Williams

 

[IndyColtsFan]

No, they should be paid. The original oath mentions fame, it does not mention wealth.

Doctors in France, for example, are paid well, but not like they are paid here. Doctor's pay are a small amont of the healthcare costs in the big picture.

Also, if you read the oath, it mentions sharing their knowledge with others, again it doesn't mention for profit.

Then what exactly is your point?

 

[her209]

As human beings we all have certain unalienable rights. Of the rights we possess, we have a right to delegate to government. For example, we all have a right to defend ourselves against predators. Since we possess that right, we can delegate it to government. In other words, we can say to government, "We have the right to defend ourselves but for a more orderly society, we give you the authority to defend us." By contrast, I don't possess the right to take your earnings for any reason. Since I have no such right, I cannot delegate it to government. If I did take your earnings for housing and medical services, it would rightfully be described as an act of theft. When government does it, it's still theft; the only difference is that it's legalized theft sanctioned by a majority vote.

-Walter Williams

That quote makes no sense unless he's saying that you don't have pay those that are defending us a salary via taxation because doing so would constitute theft. Either that or you don't have a inalienable right to medically treat yourself and therefore cannot be delegated to the government.

 

[soundforbjt]

Then what exactly is your point?

The medical healthcare profession should not be "for profit".

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The medical healthcare profession should not be "for profit".

What is the average profit margin for a doctor's office?

 

[QuantumPion]

That quote makes no sense unless he's saying that you don't have pay those that are defending us a salary via taxation because doing so would constitute theft. Either that or you don't have a inalienable right to medically treat yourself and therefore cannot be delegated to the government.

The difference between defense and healthcare is that defense is a public good.

A public good is one which everyone can share equally, and the usage of by one person does not reduce the availability to another person. Another example of a public good is street lighting.

Everyone pays for defense, everyone benefits from defense equally. We chose to fund defense as a country rather than individually by democratic vote.

Health care is not the same. It is not a public good. The consumption of health care services precludes that service from being used by someone else. In order for you to have health care at someone else's expense, someone else loses that expense. Two people cannot both benefit from that money used for health care - which is different from national defense.

 

[xj0hnx]

The medical healthcare profession should not be "for profit".

Why not? It's a skill like any other. If the only people that were in the medical field were people that did it only to help their fellow man, there wouldn't be much of a medical field.

 

[sandorski]

It's the wrong question. A better question is: Is a Healthy population better for the Nation?

 

[SagaLore]

Human "rights" are extremely limit. You have the right to live. You have the right to pursue.

That's it.

However, a healthy society is beneficial to all of society. We should do a favor to those less fortunate.

 

[Throckmorton]

Life is a human right, therefore healthcare is a human right. I'm pro human, pro rights, pro life, and pro healthcare.

 

[soundforbjt]

Human "rights" are extremely limit. You have the right to live. You have the right to pursue.

That's it.

However, a healthy society is beneficial to all of society. We should do a favor to those less fortunate.

Profiting off the sick and injured is not good for any society.

 

[her209]

The difference between defense and healthcare is that defense is a public good.

A public good is one which everyone can share equally, and the usage of by one person does not reduce the availability to another person. Another example of a public good is street lighting.

Everyone pays for defense, everyone benefits from defense equally. We chose to fund defense as a country rather than individually by democratic vote.

Health care is not the same. It is not a public good. The consumption of health care services precludes that service from being used by someone else. In order for you to have health care at someone else's expense, someone else loses that expense. Two people cannot both benefit from that money used for health care - which is different from national defense.

Would you then classify the FBI is a public good too then? If someone uses the services of an FBI agent, then they are taking away from the availability to another person.

 

[Amused]

Really, and medicine can't be apart of this because?...

Because medicine is an individual benefit, and not a common requirement to protect the rights of individuals.

Why stop at medicine? Why not universal food? Housing? Phones? Utilities? Cars?

 

[Amused]

That quote makes no sense unless he's saying that you don't have pay those that are defending us a salary via taxation because doing so would constitute theft. Either that or you don't have a inalienable right to medically treat yourself and therefore cannot be delegated to the government.

The only person who makes no sense is you.

 

[hal2kilo]

why do Americans make this issue so complicated? It's pretty simple - you tax the people, then you use the taxes to provide universal, 'free' medical care & to everyone who wants it. This is what all the first world European countries do.

Don't forget Taiwan, Japan and South Korea

 

[QuantumPion]

Would you then classify the FBI is a public good too then? If someone uses the services of an FBI agent, then they are taking away from the availability to another person.

Yes, but it is not analogous to health care and doctors, it doesn't work like that. The FBI investigates criminals for prosecution, they don't provide personal law enforcement for individuals. Individuals reporting crimes aren't receiving the benefit of the work by the FBI agents the same way a patient receives medical care from a doctor.

Kudos for the insightful question and making me think about it for a minute there.

 

[xj0hnx]

Life is a human right, therefore healthcare is a human right. I'm pro human, pro rights, pro life, and pro healthcare.

Health care is service, not a right. You have the right to seek the services of someone trained in the health care field, you do not have the right to their services for free, or paid for by someone else.